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Nausicaa & Mononoke


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Perfectsword



Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 527
Location: Somewhere in NY
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 6:56 am Reply with quote
I just bought NAusicaa, and it was a very, very good movie. Excellent, infact. And while watching it I couldn't help notice that it was, somewhat, how Princess mononoke started out...actualy the whole movie seem like preincess mononoke (vice virsa, nausicaa came first). So did anyone else notice the similarities?

A giant/god, the main charachters were almost identical, there was a "villian" who ends up helping the main character, and there is a "villian" who has a plan that would screw over the world and everyone, and they carry through with it only to realize their mistakes later on. There are giant animals in both too.

So, you think mononoke was just a simple re-telling of Nausicaa, just in another direction that Miyazaki could have wished to try and later on did?
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msi435



Joined: 29 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 10:59 am Reply with quote
Wow... now that I think of it, there are a lot of similarities between princess mononoke and nausicaa... good observation my man. It's been a while since I've seen both so I can't really site many examples off the top of my head but I'm sure there a lot.
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DemonEyesLeo



Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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Location: Japan
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 3:36 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, I noticed the similarities too. I don't think Mononoke was a re-telling, I think it was more about preventing what happens in Nausicaa. Nausicaa is about how nature strikes back against humanity; while Mononoke is about nature and humanity living together. Although at the end of Nausicaa, humans and nature are at peace, but only after most of the world is destroyed, so I think Mononoke is about how we can live in peace with nature without having most of the world destroyed in the process.
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angel_lover



Joined: 22 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:25 pm Reply with quote
DemonEyesLeo wrote:
Yeah, I noticed the similarities too. I don't think Mononoke was a re-telling, I think it was more about preventing what happens in Nausicaa. Nausicaa is about how nature strikes back against humanity; while Mononoke is about nature and humanity living together. Although at the end of Nausicaa, humans and nature are at peace, but only after most of the world is destroyed, so I think Mononoke is about how we can live in peace with nature without having most of the world destroyed in the process.

It's the other way around. Mononoke is about how we stopped being able to live in peace with nature, and Nausicaa is about how finally we will able to do so again. If you take Mononoke, On Your Mark and Nausicaa together, you have a perfect trilogy. In Mononoke, spoiler[humans destroy most of the few remaining forest spirits, and work out their own destiny no longer in harmony with nature. That San and Ashitaka can't be together even though they clearly love eachother is symbolic of this]. In On Your Mark we see the results of this, spoiler[with the earth's surface no longer habitable. We also see the winged girl though, who represents hope for the future]. In Nausicaa, we see spoiler[the final redemption of humanity. Yes, much of the world's surface has become the Sea of Corruption/Toxic Forest, but don't forget that this forest was created by human beings to cleanse the world, the dangerous insects having been engineered and put there to protect it].
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DemonEyesLeo



Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 10:24 pm Reply with quote
angel_lover wrote:
It's the other way around. Mononoke is about how we stopped being able to live in peace with nature, and Nausicaa is about how finally we will able to do so again. If you take Mononoke, On Your Mark and Nausicaa together, you have a perfect trilogy. In Mononoke, spoiler[humans destroy most of the few remaining forest spirits, and work out their own destiny no longer in harmony with nature. That San and Ashitaka can't be together even though they clearly love eachother is symbolic of this]. In On Your Mark we see the results of this, spoiler[with the earth's surface no longer habitable. We also see the winged girl though, who represents hope for the future]. In Nausicaa, we see spoiler[the final redemption of humanity. Yes, much of the world's surface has become the Sea of Corruption/Toxic Forest, but don't forget that this forest was created by human beings to cleanse the world, the dangerous insects having been engineered and put there to protect it].


Y'know, I never thought of it like that. Now looking back at both movies, it could be that they have both themes, just in different orders. In Nausicaa spoiler[there's the destruction of the world because of humans, then nature and humans live in peace].
Then in Mononoke spoiler[Nature and humans already live together, but are growing apart. How Ashitaka helps the forest god, and and tries to "see with eyes unclouded by hate" shows how he is willing to continue living in peace, despite of the other characters].
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DCRavenX





PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 1:08 am Reply with quote
Man's relationship with nature is a thread that runs through many of Miyazaki's works. Spirited Away spoiler[ looks at man's relationship with nature on a spiritual level ] and Castle In The Sky spoiler[ deals a lot at the balance between nature and technology. For example laputa was a giant technilogical marvel, but the most noticable feature was a giant tree. The garden scene is a good example and notice what happened to Muska who was sickened by the tree roots in the throne room even saying he'd destroy them.]
These similarities are based on his political beliefs, even in some of the extras on the dvd's they talk about him being an environmentalist.
It's not the only example of common threads from his works, his use of young girls as heroins is another good one.

To put it short, it's Miyazaki's personality showing through.
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ShellBullet



Joined: 20 Mar 2003
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Location: I hit things, with my fist.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 3:19 am Reply with quote
DCRavenX wrote:
It's not the only example of common threads from his works, his use of young girls as heroins is another good one.


Or his love of flying, a theme wich occurs in every single movie except Mononoke (and perhaps Howl as I haven't seen it yet.)
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angel_lover



Joined: 22 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:27 am Reply with quote
DemonEyesLeo wrote:
Then in Mononoke spoiler[Nature and humans already live together, but are growing apart. How Ashitaka helps the forest god, and and tries to "see with eyes unclouded by hate" shows how he is willing to continue living in peace, despite of the other characters].

Yes, but ultimately he spoiler[throws his hand in with Lady Eboshi to rebuild Irontown, which means still cutting down trees to feed the furnace and using the iron to make weapons as well as tools].

ShellBullet wrote:
Or his love of flying, a theme wich occurs in every single movie except Mononoke

Well, Mononoke does have the wolf leaping with San on its back, almost as good as flying.
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dormcat
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Joined: 08 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 11:59 am Reply with quote
angel_lover wrote:
spoiler[Yes, much of the world's surface has become the Sea of Corruption/Toxic Forest, but don't forget that this forest was created by human beings to cleanse the world, the dangerous insects having been engineered and put there to protect it].

Em, that's the spoiler for Nausicaa manga, not anime.

DCRavenX wrote:
Man's relationship with nature is a thread that runs through many of Miyazaki's works.

In fact, Miyazaki-san was quite annoyed for being branded as such. The main themes of Nausicaa manga and Mononoke Hime are all about spoiler[survival (生きろ). Each and every living creature is simply looking for the best way (within its physical and mental capabilities) to survive. There's no simple right or wrong. Nausicaa anime had simplified the relationship: Valley = good / Torumekia = bad, while the relationships in manga are much more complex. And Kushana doesn't have this Captain Ahab-like hatred in manga; she was never crippled by insects.]

I always feel that Mononoke Hime did a much better job as an adaptation (or, alternate retelling) of Nausicaa manga than Nausicaa anime did.
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Perfectsword



Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 8:37 pm Reply with quote
[quote="dormcat"]In fact, Miyazaki-san was quite annoyed for being branded as such. The main themes of Nausicaa manga and Mononoke Hime are all about [spoiler]survival (生きろ).

Well, no offense to Miyazaki, but he obviously did a bad jod at trying to get that message across after showing us characters who seem to have a connection with nature. Its all good though Cool
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BoygetsfireD



Joined: 03 Dec 2004
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Location: earth
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:23 am Reply with quote
perhaps there are multiple meanings? Smile
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angel_lover



Joined: 22 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:06 am Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
angel_lover wrote:
spoiler[Yes, much of the world's surface has become the Sea of Corruption/Toxic Forest, but don't forget that this forest was created by human beings to cleanse the world, the dangerous insects having been engineered and put there to protect it].

Em, that's the spoiler for Nausicaa manga, not anime.

The two worlds are not so different that the manga can't inform the anime. Even in the anime, spoiler[the Sea of Corruption is cleansing the soil, and the insects are protecting it. Natural selection adapts plants and animals to survive in their current environment, not to radically change it, so it would only be logical to assume that the Sea and its insect guardians were not naturally created.]

dormcat wrote:
DCRavenX wrote:
Man's relationship with nature is a thread that runs through many of Miyazaki's works.
In fact, Miyazaki-san was quite annoyed for being branded as such.

I'm afraid such simplistic "I wrote it so it means what I say" won't do at all in these Postmodern days. Meaning is constructed by the viewer/reader, not the creator. If you don't want to be branded someone who keeps on making works about Man's relationship with nature, don't keep making works that people can clearly see are about Man's relationship with nature.
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ShellBullet



Joined: 20 Mar 2003
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Location: I hit things, with my fist.
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 12:28 pm Reply with quote
angel_lover wrote:

I'm afraid such simplistic "I wrote it so it means what I say" won't do at all in these Postmodern days. Meaning is constructed by the viewer/reader, not the creator. If you don't want to be branded someone who keeps on making works about Man's relationship with nature, don't keep making works that people can clearly see are about Man's relationship with nature.


I think the point that Miyazaki is trying to convey is that his movies are not just about the environment, the relationship between man and nature is only one theme intersparsed with many others. A good example would be the non-Miyazki movie Pom Poko, which ends off with an obvious plug for conservationism, but yet deals with so much more than just that. Themes of survival, love, and nostalgia for a simpler time all figure prominently in the movie. Just because Miyazaki-san made two movies which highlight man vs. nature does not mean he needs to be pigeonholed into being an "environmentalist director."
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smutchi



Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:02 pm Reply with quote
ShellBullet wrote:
angel_lover wrote:

I'm afraid such simplistic "I wrote it so it means what I say" won't do at all in these Postmodern days. Meaning is constructed by the viewer/reader, not the creator. If you don't want to be branded someone who keeps on making works about Man's relationship with nature, don't keep making works that people can clearly see are about Man's relationship with nature.


I think the point that Miyazaki is trying to convey is that his movies are not just about the environment, the relationship between man and nature is only one theme intersparsed with many others. A good example would be the non-Miyazki movie Pom Poko, which ends off with an obvious plug for conservationism, but yet deals with so much more than just that. Themes of survival, love, and nostalgia for a simpler time all figure prominently in the movie. Just because Miyazaki-san made two movies which highlight man vs. nature does not mean he needs to be pigeonholed into being an "environmentalist director."


Both of you made some good points in my opinion. I think most writers or creators intend to talk about one or several ideas/opinions/topics etc or at least think about the message they want to deliver. I, personally, would be bothered/annoyed too if my work was generalized and dissociated from what I originally wanted to say (unless of course you declare yourself as a postmodern artist, which, I don't know, Myazaki maybe did).
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angel_lover



Joined: 22 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:12 pm Reply with quote
ShellBullet wrote:
Just because Miyazaki-san made two movies which highlight man vs. nature does not mean he needs to be pigeonholed into being an "environmentalist director."

I wasn't trying to generalise or pigeonhole as such, I was trying to speak up for DCRavenX. But while we're on the subject, it's not just two movies. As I've already said, there's On Your Mark. Then there's Totoro, set in an area outside Tokyo where development was destroying the forests. The Ghibli museum in Mitaka was partly an attempt to save what remained of 'Totoro's Forest'. Spirited Away and Laputa/Castle in the Sky have also been mentioned. In Spirited Away, the spoiler[bicycle scene refers to a personal experience of Miyazaki-san when he helped to clean up a river], and if the scene where you see spoiler[the robot looking after the garden] in Laputa isn't a direct homage to Silent Running (one of the first 'eco-sci-fi' movies), I'll eat my recyclable biodegradable hat Rolling Eyes
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