Forum - View topicBest Rivals/Adversaries Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Group A Final
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke San vs. Lady Eboshi It is a tight match. For now I am voting for the series I enjoyed more. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi I don't care. I really don't. Neither Sasuke vs. Naruto nor Lelouche vs. Suzaku deserve to be in this round, IMO. I am voting for Lelouche vs. Suzaku because at least I enjoyed their rivalry. It wasn't dragged on and on for a few hundred episodes. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group A Final
Voting for: Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note Not even remotely close. Light vs L is still the first rivalries I think of when wondering about who is the "best." And I still hate San. Group B Final Voting for: Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass The flaws in Naruto's story are coming out in this round and showing how they affect the rivalry. The flaws in Code Geass, of which there are many, do not IMO negatively affect the rivalry in any way. They are still one of the key things that kept me going. |
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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Group A Final
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Light vs. L. No question here. The mononoke rivalry is a good one that deserves to be here, but Light vs. L is superior on all counts. Its intensity, originality, and being absolutely intrinsic to the show gets my vote. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass[/quote] Blahrg. Both these rivalries have major flaws, but Im going to vote for Lelouch vs. Suzaku here. Naruto vs. Sasuke has a big problem in that in the beginning only Naruto viewed Sasuke as a rival and Sasuke viewed Naruto as an annoyance. Then Sasuke began to acknowledge Naruto as worthy but not long after he spoiler[leaves the Hidden Leaf Village] and it goes back to being one-sided. Lelouch vs. Suzaku isn't perfect but I like the ideological differences. I always find it interesting how two friends can drift so far apart when they once shared so much. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6569 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Group A Final
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Wow. A classic movie whose environmental message is portrayed in the conflict between two women versus a flawed series that is at its best when the two antagonists go head to head in one of the most cerebral contests in anime. Tough. Lady Eboshi v San rivalry pros - Like Death Note there is a fantastic allegorical resonance in the rivalry, though it's probably slightly more interesting here. Lady Eboshi represents reason and civilisation, the notion that steady human development is desirable and possible, that the collective can improve the lot of the individual, that human welfare is best achieved though social organisation. The price of that progress is violence in the form of war and in the destruction of the environment. San represents emotion and nature, the notion that following one's instincts is the best guide for life and that the beauty of the wild transcends all else. The price of that conservation is violence in the form of "nature, red in tooth and claw" and the suppression of understandable human ambitions. What's at stake here is the future of our planet, the wild places we love so much, and the benefits of modern life that we love at least as much. - One of the antagonists, Lady Eboshi, is among Miyazaki's greatest character creations - see the last tournament where, if I remember correctly, she made it to the final four. She exquisitely embodies one side of the conflict in all its ambiguity. - The conflict has one magnificent set piece - the extremely spiteful battle in Iron Town that highlights the grudge between the two women. - The resolution is good, if lacking in dramatic possibilities. Prince Ashitaki acknowledges that wilderness (San) and civilisation (Eboshi) can never be fully reconciled, however they can exist in a sort of uneasy balance. He sees himself as a go-between, seeking to maintain harmony between the two. The Yin / Yang symbolism is very rich in the movie. Lady Eboshi v San rivalry cons - One of the antagonists, San, is among Miyazaki's weakest character creations. Not only is she dull - particularly so in the American dub - but her behaviour, admittedly heroic, is so irrational that it undermines the environmental case the director is trying to make. - It isn't until well into the film that the rivalry is established, on either a metaphorical or personal level. - After Ashitaki leaves Iron Town the first time the the film's storytelling falls away, undermining the rivalry that has been established. - The rivalry isn't what makes this film as good as it is, even if it is central to it. The most memorable things are the beautiful artwork and animation in the first half, the world created by Miyazaki, and the character of Lady Eboshi. Light v L pros - Another brilliant allegorical story with one of the same principles at stake - civilisation. The opposing spirit, however, is social chaos. Light represents vigilanteism, the notion that an individual with the means and motivation, can impose their desires upon societly. L, even with his eccentric ways, represents the rule of law - the carefully calibrated system of rules and restraints that enables all of us to co-operate in modern society. Despite its supernatural flavour, Death Note has a resonance in our 9/11 world, where individuals slaughter thousands on the basis of whom they deem are unworthy of life. It seems to me, though, that the allegory is there for the dramatic possibilities, rather than being heartfelt, as it is with Miyazaki. - I loved the way the two antagonists mirrored each other. The major difference is that Light was thoroughly corrupt and that L's ideals were more laudable. - The intricate scheming of Light and L to gain the upper hand is, first time around at least, utterly spellbinding. - The resolution is sensational. The bad guy completely does over the good guy. It just doesn't happen enough in story telling. That episode (25) is simply magnificent. Hey, Light does get his comeuppance in the end. - The rivalry is central to pretty much everything that is good about a such a flawed series. Light v L cons - The premises that set up the rivalry - the Death Note and its rules - are terribly contrived. - From the time that Light allows himself to be confined (episode 16) the rivalry has reached its use by date. Episode 25 notwithstanding, Light's intricate machinations end up pushing believeability too far, too many times. Anyone with half a brain would have nabbed Light by episode 10. So, why didn't L use his? - The two characters are thoroughly unappealing. That need not be a bad thing but, combine that with shenanigans that were so drawn out way too long, I ended up not really caring about the outcome of the rivalry, again episode 25 notwithstanding. It just became a battle between two overblown egos. I must admit, though, they are worthy combatants, unlike San who lets down her side in Princess Mononoke. I'm voting for Light v L, and against my nomination, because I think the balance of pros and cons is in its favour. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass I've not seen either series. I'm voting for Lelouch Lamperouge v Suzaku Kurugi on the basis of the arguments put forward by others: that the Naruto rivalry is one-sided and that the Code Geass rivalry makes some metaphorical points. |
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Olliff
 Posts: 550 |
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Well, there goes my bracket, and looking the rest of it, I really need one rivalry to pull of back to back miracles to win and at least one miracle to even place. I think they are worthy but the Hikaru rivalry has an unending amount of momentum. However, I do admit it is nice to see some new faces in contention to win the mini-game. Although, Key and Mow123 are still be found along side myself. That aside, I don't see any likely upsets this round and both winners seem fairly clear cut, and the voters seem to agree.
Group A Final Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Light vs. L. Very clear cut here by the iconic Death Note rivalry. The Mononoke rivalry has its merits, but against Light vs. L it is no contest. By all accounts that make a rivalry better, Light vs L win in almost every way. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass Another clear cut win, but unlike the other match both of these rivalries have some major issues, but I'm going to side with Lelouch vs. Suzaku based almost purely on the weaknesses of their foes. Naruto vs. Sasuke rivalry that has the nail in the coffin weakness that weeded out mainly rivalries in the earlier rounds -- it is a one sided rivalry. Sasuke barely acknowledges Naruto and does not see him as a true rival. This one weakness pretty much nullifies all of its other strengths, especially at the late stage in the game. Lelouch vs Suzaku is a solid rivalry but beyond the thrill, drama and only topical ideological differences, this rivalry relies mainly on sensationalism and emotion over thought or reason. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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A-29
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Voting for: San vs Eboshi Because: Caricature may not be the right word, but Light and L's characters are too bombastic or exaggerated in comparison to what the ideological conflict they supposedly represent entails. And I say supposedly, because Light's reasoning is so riddled with flaws that the conflict of reason is not nearly so ambiguous as to who is right when one starts to truly examine the justifications. Furthermore, many of the twists rely on the sudden introduction of new rules and contrived machinations. B-29 Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass Choosing: Lelouch vs Suzaku Because I'm not thrilled about either pair moving to the semi-finals. Lelouch and Suzaku are hammy and melodramatic, and not really the style of rivalry I favor. Naruto and Sasuke often don't have an equal level of consideration in their conflict. However, I recognize that my dislike of the Code Geass rivalry is more a personal taste matter than an actual flaw, so I will support them this round. |
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4750G
 Posts: 546 |
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Group A Final
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Light Yagami vs. L - when I hear rivalry, this is what I think about. I've said my reasons why I enjoyed this anime in the past already and I have nothing to add. This rivalry is really memorable. And it's a really strong one, that's why it's been getting landslide votes since the start. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi - while I enjoyed both shows, I'm voting for this rivalry simply because I preferred the turn of eventss. The two started out at the opposite ends of the stick, but by the end, they were working together to accomplish a common goal. The other rivalry, on the other hand, is the complete opposite, which as I've said a lot of times, saddens me a lot. |
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EmbraceMe
 Posts: 2017 Location: Growing old and jaded. |
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Lets hope I make it in time for voting...
Group A Final Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke I'm not quite sure whom to vote for. I don't remember much about the Princess Monomoke rivalry but I remember liking it. Meh, time to follow the bandwagon and vote for Light vs. L. Yea, their rivalry does get intense but sometimes it is more of an exaggeration. It's something I can overlook. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass I don't really like either rivalry and I never really considered Naruto vs. Sasuke to be much of a rivalry. Practically because Sasuke, for the most part, ignores Naruto. It was pretty much one sided. Over the course of the tournament, I've been underestimating Lelouch vs. Suzaku or rather Zero vs. Lancelot's pilot. It wasn't until I went back and watched a few segments of Code Geass again that I realized Zero vs. Lancelot ideologies created a conflict between them both. Then there's the final episode of season 1 where spoiler[Suzaku has Lelouch at gunpoint. He doesn't hesitate to shoot him.] A weak reason, but I think it's better than Naruto vs. Sasuke. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18363 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Um, you do realize that you had almost another 24 hours, right? Anyway, I'd better get around to voting myself: Group A Final Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke San vs. Eboshi is worthy to be here, but they are simply outclassed. Light vs. L simply has no significant weakness unless the occasionally-overblown nature of the presentation bothers you, as it is intricate, develops in interesting ways, is waged for life-or-death stakes, and is undeniably well-established. Honestly, I'm not sure if anyone beats them at this point - or even should. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass Wow, I don't want to vote for either here. I am going with Lelouch vs. Suzaku because the Naruto/Sasuke weaknesses are even greater rather than because I genuinely think that this duo deserves to make the Final Four. |
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The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
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Group A Final
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke It is really interesting to see these two interact with each other. Light, especially, always has to have his guard up against the eccentric L and his powers of deduction. The chase is on to find Kira in the battle of the wits. My vote goes to: Light Yagami vs. L. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass The Code Geass rivalry builds up nicely over time and reaches a turning point spoiler[when Euphemia dies]. It carries over into R2 building on the first season's foundation. Though, the antagonism between these two dissolves over time, it is the better choice of the two. My vote goes to: Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Group A Final
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Voting for: Light Yagami vs. L I have to say that errinundra's post broke this one down quite well. I also believe that Princess Mononoke is a great movie and its main conflict was effective, sure, but at the end of the day, the rivalry would have been significantly more complex and balanced if San was a more interesting character. Death Note, on the other hand, is definitely a story that thrives because of the Light vs. L confrontation, where both characters are reasonably strong individuals in their own right. Also, it's worth pointing out that the effects of its resolution arguably still continued well into the second half of the show (even if the "new" rivalries aren't nearly as good, the fact is that for the purposes of this match I'm only concerned about their existence and links to the original conflict). Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass Voting for: Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi I've already discussed this specific rivalry at length, so my reasoning will try to be brief: Yes, there is a lot of drama and theatrics involved, but as long as it remains engaging and not uninteresting, I think that's actually a good thing for this type of rivalry. After all, melodrama is at its worst when there is absolutely nothing behind it, and in this case I believe the existence of at least a bit of substance can be easily demonstrated, even if it wasn't always used in the best possible way and there were admittedly a few elements I could have done without. In the absence of any real argument in favor of Naruto vs. Sasuke, the choice is clear (as is which rivalry will ultimately win this side of the bracket, of course, as I'm also fully aware of -and in agreement with- the most likely result). |
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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Group A Final
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke It is hard to judge how deep and potentially impressive the San vs. Lady Eboshi could have been if there was more than just one movie. The rivalry is quite satisfying for the world in which it exists. But it can't compare to the thought provoking complexity of Light Yagami vs. L. I see little reason why these two shouldn't take the top prize in this tournament. I look forward to the final battle. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass Just because the Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi rivalry sometimes goes over the deep end in terms of melodramaticism doesn't mean it is a bad rivalry. It this case it is certainly better than Naruto vs. Sasuke for reasons already stated by many voters. |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Group A Final
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke For rivalry that takes place in move San vs Eboshi is anything but bad, however against the most iconic rivalry in recent memory they fall short. Light Yagami vs. L have few weakness as a rivalry unless you consider the unlikability and melodramatic nature a fault. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass I really don't want to give this CG a flawless victory but the Naruto rivalry has no business being here so late in the game. A rivalry must have intense tension that goes both ways between each character and in later parts of Shippuden that doesn't happen. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi goes over the deep end more than not, but it's a fun rivalry to see and their is actually interaction between both parties, and it's intense to say the least. I also want to stress that even though the CG may win with a larger margin here, it's mainly due to the weaknesses of its foe than by its own merits. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18363 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 5 Groups A and B Finals is now closed.
And with 15 votes in, the outcomes were never in doubt: Group A: Light vs. L eliminates San vs. Eboshi, 12-3. Group B: Lelouch vs. Suzaku destroys Naruto vs. Sasuke, 15-0. FLAWLESS VICTORY! And really, how silly is it that a rivalry with as borderline merits as what Lelouch/Suzaku has not only makes it into the Final Four but does it with a shut-out? Or that they would do even better than Light vs. L would? Granted, that match-up has some merits, but raise your hand if you genuinely think they're Final Four material. Anyone? Anyone? Anyway, the second half of the Group Finals will be up very soon. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Hey, blame the goddess of luck for the luck of the draw. I think I can safely say that it was obvious Naruto and Sasuke were decidedly inferior competition in this match. That said, I reckon Goku and Vegeta should have made it here, not the Naruto pair. No, Lelouch and Suzaku didn't deserve to be in the quarterfinals either, let alone the semi-finals. But, they'll get creamed in the next match, so it's all good. |
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