Forum - View topicBest Rivals/Adversaries Tournament: Post-Mortem
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The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
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Group C-29
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes I have never seen either one of these series. All my knowledge is based on reputation alone. However, there have been immense support for both matches and series. In the end, I am picking the Princess Tutu pair based on the clips. My vote goes to: Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe. Group C-30 Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo Though the pair has met their match, I am still voting for them. Their differing personalities, fighting styles, and levels of literacy sets the tone of their feud. Without these two, the series would be as entertaining. My vote goes to: Mugen vs. Jin. Group D-29 The Elrics vs. Homunculi, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket Homunculi and humans are just not meant to get along. A lot of people have died and some were killed as well all for their devious motives. The Elrics do not take kindly to their actions. My vote goes to: The Elrics vs. Homunculi. Group D-30 Ayeka vs. Ryoko, Tenchi Muyo! franchise vs. Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go The Go pair gets my vote here. A rivalry based on most games tend to have a lot at stake for those involved. These two push each other to better their skills at the chance of beating each other in Go. My vote goes to: Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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I'd say it's entirely a matter of personal preference. You're far more likely to find long distance rivalries in modern military history than the colorful close encounters of ancient times or purely fantastical tales, so I think it's natural for political/military science fiction to take a different route instead of opting for single combat. After all, many great commanders such as Wellington and Napoleon or Rommel and Montgomery almost never met in person, but their direct and indirect confrontations will still be very interesting and exciting for students of history, period, as well as all the resulting implications that make them qualify as rivals. Even rival political figures don't always get the opportunity to directly debate each other in public, despite whatever TV may make you think, particularly when their nations are at war. In that sense, I can appreciate both types of conflicts myself. I'll acknowledge that's not for everyone though...and not in a "you must be this smart or cool to like Legend of the Galactic Heroes" way, absolutely not, but simply because we all have different interests as demonstrated by our varying voting records throughout this tournament.
I believe this takes us quite a bit outside the main topic of the tournament, to be honest, but for the sake of the record...I'd still like to address your comments. While I can understand your conclusion based only on the specific clips provided, both of those points lose a lot of strength once more material is taken into consideration, which is absolutely necessary given the nature and length of this series. In particular, the first season alone clearly shows that Reinhard has plenty of subordinates with their own talents or skills, many of which rise through the ranks as more and more time goes on, so nothing would be further from the truth than suggesting that nobody else is capable of taking effective initiative during the series. The same thing goes for Yang and his own crew. You'll still get a number of arrogant, corrupt, incompetent or unlucky commanders, to say nothing of those who are merely guilty of making deadly mistakes, but that is totally warranted when you're dealing with large military organizations and imperfect government institutions on what is literally a galactic scale. If anything, I think that having subordinates of varying fates and skill sets adds to, not substracts from, the credibility of the two commanders involved in this rivalry. Concerning the other issue...admittedly, this isn't the best time and place to get into excessive nitpicking over strategy in a work of fiction, where some level of suspension of disbelief is inherently necessary, but I can definitely say that there is a significant amount of variety in terms of the outcomes of battles and the exchange of tactical or strategic moves. If anyone is bored or interested enough, there are places elsewhere on the net where the subject has been presented or discussed in detail, such as here. There will, of course, be spoilers.
I don't see that as a problem, in and of itself, but Yang has to make several difficult decisions throughout the show, indicating he certainly has enough willpower to stand by his beliefs. If he had no inherent ideological or political interest, then it's rather strange of him spoiler[to topple a military junta that briefly ruled over his own faction, continue actively aiding resistance efforts even after he is temporarily led into a bittersweet retirement, or even just refuse the invitation to join Reinhard's side when it was quite graciously offered.] Whatever factors were originally involved in shaping him as an individual from birth or how this could have turned out differently, that doesn't change what the man actually decided to do. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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And yet that massive post fails to address the most glaring stretch of disbelief: Reinhard's intention with the spindle formation is to break through Yang's fleet. Yang's maneuver makes this easier for him, yet this becomes Yang's advantage. That post is not so much an analysis as it just a regurgitation of the events.
My issue is that I see him as refusing to yield not because his views are right, but because they are his. The distinction is subtle, and I am perhaps conveying it poorly, but it is important to me, despite that in doing so I potentially draw closer to irony and/or hypocrisy. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3950 Location: New York state. |
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It's officially midnight. From what I've tallied up, looks like Hikaru and Akira get a spot in the quarter-finals, as well as their next match appearing to be a three-way. Should be fun to see how things turn out!
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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After looking back at the post where you originally made this same point, the only answer I can readily provide would be that either he miscalculated and/or his subordinates took too much time to carry out the specific fleet movements. As another alternative, perhaps what sounds like a logical maneuver in theory isn't necessarily going to be workable under the conditions of space battles in this particular show (trying to calculate such things here would be a pointless effort, at least without finding stats and going into tiresome number crunching). Or the author of the novels just didn't think about it. Then again, even if it could be accepted as a mistake for the sake of argument, in my opinion that doesn't take anything of sufficient value away from the show or, more importantly, the characters and their relationship as rivals. I think the story is still, comparatively speaking, superior to most anime in terms of providing detailed characterization and allowing for some fairly complex military/political affairs, even if all of the space combat engagements may not necessarily work out as would in real life. Given a choice, I'd rather have that in a rivalry of this nature instead of the opposite. Frankly, I posted that link for general rather than specific purposes, considering there are numerous other battles in LOGH as a whole. Even if you dislike a few of them, that doesn't mean you'll have the same opinion about the rest. At any rate, the discussion has become off-topic and entirely academic at this point. 
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18363 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 Groups C and D Semifinals are now closed.
Then you must have missed something, because my double-checked count has 15 voters - hence a tie is impossible. C-29: Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe ousts Reinhard vs. Yang, 9-6. C-30: Kouga vs. Iga goes ninja on Mugen vs. Jin, 12-3. D-29: Yuki vs. Kyo Sohma edges Elrics vs. Homunculi on a late spurt, 8-7. D-30: Hikaru vs. Akira takes down Ayeka vs. Ryoko, 10-5. For as hard-argued as D-30 is, it didn't end up being that close, and after the way Round 3 went, I can't say I'm surprised. I am a bit surprised that Yuki vs. Kyo pulled it out, though, and they only did it with a late run of four consecutive votes. C-29 was back-and-forth most of the way with the Princesses pulling away at the end, while C-30 was a blow-out all the way. Given the way voting and arguments have gone the past couple of rounds, who advances in D now seems obvious, but C is far less clear-cut. Talk about your stylistic contrasts in that match-up! Power Rankings Never got around to these for the Sweet 16, so here they are, at least, for the Elite 8: 1. Light vs. L, 89.70588 2. Tutu vs. Krahe, 89.0625 3. Yuki vs. Kyo Sohma, 83.07692 4. Kouga vs. Iga, 81.25 5. Naruto vs. Sasuke, 74.57627 6. Lelouch vs. Suzaku, 72.88136 7. San vs. Eboshi, 70.58824 8. Hikaru vs. Akira, 66.15385 Tutu vs. Krahe was at a record pace going into this round, but they hit vastly stiffer competition in Round 4 than what Light vs. L did. Hikaru vs. Akira, for all its vociferous support, simply has not been consistently winning by crushing margins. (And while it is the second-least-known of these titles based on ANN's number of rankings, that can't be used as an excuse since the one title it's half again higher than has a rivalry in the #2 spot.) |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18363 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 5: Groups A and B Finals is now closed.
Results can be found here. We have two spots in the Final Four up for grabs here as we enter the final month of the tournament. The Group B final looks like it could be the more competitive one, but we’ll see. Also do note that the San vs. Lady Eboshi match-up does not have a third video clip due to the limits of the source material. (That’s the problem with drawing from a movie rather than 26+ episodes of series content. . .) Group A Final Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass Last edited by Key on Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3950 Location: New York state. |
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Why not just have the Quarter-Finals in one sitting instead of spread it out between two weeks?
Nitpicking aside... Group A Final: Light vs L (Death Note) Honestly, I don't think this should be much of a close match. San and Eboshi's rivalry is more both characters representing their factions than any personal grudge they have with one another. Group B Final: Lelouch vs Suzaku (Code Geass) In terms of consistency for rivalry, it hurts Sasuke and Naruto for this match as by Shippuden, the rivalry is seemingly one-sided with Sasuke having other goals on his mind besides dealing with his old rival and Naruto being the only one to fuss about it. Such isn't the case for Lelouch and Suzaku's rivalry as both are frequently at odds with one another throughout both seasons of Code Geass as they see one another as major threats in their goals of obliterating whichever faction the other represents, as well as the feud being more heated and escalated following the events that led to spoiler[Euphemia's death.] |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6569 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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What? They can't so much as look at each other without going ballistic. Grudge is a perfect description for their rivalry. It's a great match-up, though, and I'm not yet sure how I'll vote, even if I did nominate San and Lady Eboshi. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3950 Location: New York state. |
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Yes, but that's only because both see themselves as enemies representing the factions the other wished to take out and their personal encounters with one another not being as frequent as what is seen with Light and L. To be honest, I'm quite surprised at how far the rivalry has gotten as I thought it would have been dispatched last round due to the mentioned weaknesses I brought up with it right now and in the last round. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18363 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I did consider that and we may certainly do that next time. In this case, though, we had two matches in the C/D semifinals that weren't clearly decided until the last minute (and even Ayeka/Ryoko was close enough for a comeback until the last couple of hours), so that would have severely taxed ccdx on getting the clips ready.
I'm going to be holding off for a while on voting because I'm not sure how I'm going to vote Group B (honestly, I'm not crazy about either advancing to the Final Four), but I felt I had to point out the inaccuracy of the bolded statement. The two most certainly are not at odds with each other (at least at a rivalry level, anyway) "throughout both seasons." In fact, before the incident you spoiler-tagged, they merely have a philosophical difference rather than any degree of antagonistic relationship. They didn't truly become personal adversaries until after Suzaku got a (partially incorrect) understanding about what triggered that incident, and that died off late in the second series when spoiler[Suzaku got sold on the whole business with the Zero Initiative]. Also, let's be careful about semantics here. The nominations phase was very specific about making this "Lelouch vs. Suzaku" rather than "Zero vs. Suzaku." It matters because, for the first 20 episodes or so of the series, Suzaku didn't know that they were the same person and Lelouch didn't really see him as a rival or adversary; in fact, even after that point I'd argue that he saw Suzaku more as misguided than a true enemy. Now, this should not be taken as an indicator that I'm leaning towards voting the other way, as I do acknowledge the problem you cited with the "rivalry" aspect becoming more one-sided in Shippuden. (And that's why I am not crazy about either choice. Had Goku vs. Vegeta advanced, this would have been a much more clear-cut choice for me.) |
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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You're right, this is an important distinction as far as the mutual recognition of identities is concerned but, nevertheless, Lelouch vs. Suzaku is a direct consequence of Zero vs. Suzaku. Even though Lelouch concealed his identity under the mask of Zero and lied about any number of things after assuming that role, he didn't lie about one of his central beliefs: the ends justify the means. That was what Lelouch himself actually believed and his actions as Zero reflected this. The same thing goes for Suzaku's remarks about the need to use the right methods, which is something he tells anyone who is willing to listen. That's even his reaction to Zero during their first personal, non-violent meeting early in the series. Lelouch certainly doesn't take that too well. The resulting tension and animosity is a natural consequence of two conflicting ideals, despite the initial lack of a full-fledged personal grudge. At the same time, I believe the fact Lelouch originally saw Suzaku as extremely misguided doesn't mean he didn't consider him an increasingly annoying obstacle, which definitely qualifies as the start of a rivalry, even if there were a couple of moments where he tried persuasion rather than elimination (as seen in the first clip).
The thing is, I'd argue it's actually a philosophical difference that keeps growing into an increasingly antagonistic relationship, because Lelouch certainly does not appreciate constantly having his plans ruined by all of Suzaku's interventions or interruptions on the battlefield. It may be a gradual process, in the grand scheme of things, but their repeated encounters in battle tend to increase, rather than decrease, the distance between them. Likewise, from the beginning Kururugi is explicitly opposed to practically everything that Zero and the Black Knights are doing. They are a terrorist/resistance group and he is a soldier of the occupation who believes in the system. If Suzaku doesn't manage to kill or arrest the whole lot of them, it's certainly not for lack of trying, considering how often Lelouch's mecha ends up being attacked, disabled or destroyed by Lancelot during the first season.
Before talking about that, it's worth bringing up the third clip for a minute here. There we see a moment of uneasy or even fleeting understanding for the sake of saving lives, which is something that Lelouch knew Suzaku would do, rather than the result of any true attempt at reconciliation. When the two of them end up meeting again, not too long after that, there is no real sign of their having come any closer in terms of personal or ideological differences. In order words, under certain special conditions the two of them may try to work together for the sake of a greater cause, but that's the exception rather than the rule. To put it another way, extraordinary circumstances can lead to extraordinary outcomes. Even much later, when the situation has significantly worsened after a lot of death and suffering, it's only because both of them literally hit rock bottom spoiler[that their relationship had almost nowhere to go but up. During the last arc, Zero Requiem wasn't a plan born out of hope or reason -it's logically questionable- but more out of a desire for mutual punishment, considering all the accumulated bad blood between them. The world became a "better" place as a result, yes, but the plan was arguably more destructive than constructive for both Suzaku and Lelouch as individuals, if the only solution for them to overcome their rivalry was to punish each other in horrible ways. It's both ironic and open to debate, of course, but they didn't just agree to forget the past and move on as if nothing had happened or without making any sacrifices.] |
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Unicorn_Blade
 Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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Group A Final
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke I tried to look at it from different sides... I will go with San vs. Lady Eboshi- mainly for a reason that I do not think that the conflict has to be all personal for it to be valid. And besides, it is quite personal nevertheless- for Eboshi, San is a personification of all that stands in her way to make the village prosper even better. For San, Eboshi is is the personification of all she hates in humans. They are both halves of one apple and represent two different choices people can make- except that one is fresh and intact, and the other one rotten by greed (that being said, Eboshi has a good side to her too). Despite a lot less screening time the two have, the few encounters give a good flavour of what the conflict between them is about, making it even more successful of a portrayal for me. Group B Final Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass[/quote] Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi - I am a lot more familiar with Code Geass, and then from what I have read about Naruto and Sasuke, it does not seem they pull off a better performance than the other two contestants. The clips are quite impressive, but there seems to be a lot more going on in Code Geass... So all in all, Lelouche vs Suzaku it is. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Minigame results. Group D killed a lot of people. We're down to five contenders for the winners (over a 10 point spread), and one of those only has a shot at third place by this point.
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