Forum - View topicBest Rivals/Adversaries Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Results. Sorry for the delay, but it's been a busy and stressful week at work.
Calling it a rip-off of Romeo and Juliet misses a totally different point as well: that the lovers-from-rival-families plot is far older than Shakespeare, even. If we were to eliminate rivalries because they are reminiscent of older sources, there would be no eligible parties. Edit: Fixed error in results, changed link to updated spreadsheet. Last edited by Dorcas_Aurelia on Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:22 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Group C-25
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe rivalry is the perfect centerpiece to the dark fairy tale that is Princess Tutu. Complex, winding, captivating and of course all the bit intense. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm for the multi-layeredness and for the fact that this rivalry has so many different angles that it is nearly ineffable. At the surface, they are just rivals, but if you dig deeper into the immersive back world that is LoGH you find something quite different that you rarely find in anime. You find an rivalry that's believable. It's almost like History Channel to do a segment with these two figures as its focus. Of course, there is drama and this is set in the far future. I think one of the biggest draws is that the characters in this rivalry are so likable and that the same time this rivalry has these two character's fate so intertwined even if they rarely ever meet face to face. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa Mainly based on the clip, and what has been said by the few who have seen this show. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, [i]Lupin III Franchise Vs. Mugen vs. Jin The bickering focused rivalry between Mugen and Jin didn't do it for me. You need more than just distinct different personalities and a string of brawls to make a decent rivalry. This rivalry is further weakened because Jin simply doesn't care about Mugen making it a one-way rivalry. Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata frienemies dynamic is refreshing and it has stood the test of time. I also never really found Samuari Champloo to draw its strength from its characters or rivalries -- it's no Cowboy Bebop -- just a budget over-stylized show with well animated fight and a style over substance mentality. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3951 Location: New York state. |
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I assume this is directed at me for my comments over the flaws for the Lupin/ Zenigata rivalry. While I can certainly agree that there can be rivalries in an anime that surpass the subpar quality of their titles in terms of dynamic and tension, I also think that at this point in the tournament there needs to be more to the rivalry than the same repetitive routines that anime such as Lupin III follow. Weren't such repetitive developments the big reason that rivalries like Ash and Friends/ Team Rocket and Gatchaman/ Galactor have been axed in earlier rounds? Lupin always gets the better of Zenigata in their clashes with one another and while they occasionally partner up against major threats, they still go through the same routines with one another in their decades long rivalry. While Mugen/ Jin isn't as solid as some other prominent feuds in this tournament bracket and I certainly picture the winner of C-28 being easily dispatched next round, it doesn't fall under the repetitive developments that Zenigata and Lupin fall under. I'm a fan of Lupin III, but I believe the major rivalry that makes the series a hoot for anime fans has met its maker at this point. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6569 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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@ Ggultra2764,
I wasn't thinking of you in particular. In any case, neither pairing in C-28 excite me greatly. I'm not fussed who gets up - they'll be out of their depth next round. **Edit** Looking back through the thread, it's this post from Tris8 that prompted me to make that comment. |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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Wow, I'm familiar with 7 of the 8 pairings in the group right off the bat!
Group C-25 Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu A tough one, as I love both series, but in the second half of TTGL, Viral spoiler[joins the brigade, thus no longer being a rival]. Tutu and Kraehe both have some of the same goals, to help Mytho, but can't agree on how to go about this, making the rivalry pretty powerful as a result. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes Going based on my familiarity here, but even then, there are few rivals who are better than these guys anyway. Not only that, but this is one of those things where the entire world is at stake here and Yang is pretty much the only one who can stop Reinhard on this one. Not only that, but they're evenly matched at all times, so it's great fun to see them go head to head. *VOTE CHANGE* Group C-27 Kouga vs Iga Ninja Clan , Basilisk Hmm, I thought this one over, and I honestly don't think I voted right. Now, while Maya and Ayumi's rivalry might be similar to Hikaru and Akira's, both of them were already getting into acting without any knowledge of the other, whereas Hikaru really didn't get into Go for himself without Akira there (he would have just been a puppet for Sai instead). Maya simply loved acting and it wasn't seeing Ayumi that got her into it, she was already acting out TV shows in front of others even before that and got talent scouted. Ayumi has been in it because of her mother. Once they met, the rivalry began so I guess it's more similar to other rivalries with the Hikaru/Akira similarity being that it's not violent and it's about personal improvement. When I thought back to Basilisk though, this rivalry took up the entire series too. The show starts off with a group of 10 vs 10 and from the very first episode, you just know that everyone is going to die, but they also fight to avoid the inevitable. Everyone on a team knows the special skills of the other members and attempts to bounce off of them in order to get the most out of their teammates and to kill the highest number of enemies. But the other amazing thing is that this isn't just going on between the 10 vs 10, but this has been going on for generations before them too, this battle was a long time in the making and once the starting trigger was finally pulled, the tension behind it made what could have been a simple feud far bloodier, more savage, and intense then it otherwise would have been. They're strong competitors, so I'm willing to change my vote to them because while Maya and ayumi are similar to Hikaru and Akira, they're still not in the same league. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise Bah, I don't think either one of these is particularly strong, but I'll give the nod to Lupin and Zenigata. They're a classic "cat and mouse" type rival and it's a bit similar to Ash vs Team Rocket in that you know it's one sided as anything, but it's still damn entertaining. Last edited by zawa113 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EmbraceMe
 Posts: 2017 Location: Growing old and jaded. |
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Group C-25
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, vote based on comments. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, I've seen FMP! but I don't remember the rivalry being that great. I'm also using supporting comments to help me decide for this one. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Kouga vs. Iga clans, I have not seen it yet, but I have the BD of it waiting for me to open it up and play it. (This is from memory so there might be mistakes...)The fued leads back to the past generations feud and in the present day, the young leaders attempt to reconcile the two clan's relationship. However those attempts are pointless and made mundane because of the hatred between the two groups. Watch episode one and you'll see some of the hatred between the two groups. They'll try to kill each other no matter the circumstances. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo Coin-flip.... Mugen vs. Jin. I was rather unfamiliar with many of the contestants - I only knew two out of the eight. |
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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Group C-25 Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Tutu vs. Krahe. What can I say here that hasn't already been said? See previous arguments. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm. I wasn't impressed with the clip of them from the Cool Tournament, but the clip here is convincing. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Kouga clan vs. Iga clan. I just finished watching this series, and wow. This show has been referred to as a rip-off of Romeo and Juliet, but this rivalry puts the feud between the Capulets and the Montagues to shame (from the play not the anime). Many aren't voting for it because it is 'just ninjas killing each other', but saying it that simply belittles the series. They are about to finally achieve peace after 400 years of fighting and killing and tears, when tragedy strikes and they are thrown back into full-out war because of one part misunderstanding, two parts hatred, and one part orchestrator in the shadows. This soul-wrenching rivalry is so intense and desperate that at one point a Kouga ninja is forced to spoiler[ignore his sister's suffering as she slowly bleeds to death right next to him so that he can keep his cover and not be killed himself]. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo[/quote] Mugen vs. Jin. I like Lupin vs. Zenigata, but I prefer the life-on-the-line rivalry of Samurai Champloo. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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C-25
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Choosing: Tutu vs Krahe Because It is just the unquestionably better choice here. The magical girls have more depth to their conflict, and they're friends outside of it to boot. Viral fades in importance a little after he is soundly defeated leading up to the fight with Lord Genome, and that (more than his heel-face-turn) is what weakens them most here. C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Choosing: Sousuke vs Gauron Because LotGH has a large enough following that this vote doesn't really matter, but that clip just turns me off so much. Both characters are incredibly blase about the raging battle, and I can't help but question the logic of the tactics they use (Reinhard's plan was to cut through Yang's fleet, so at some point he would have started turning outward to flank the two halves, so why did he wait until they were completely behind him and reformed before reacting?). I'm going in favor of the intensity and personal stakes of the FMP fight, here. C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Choosing: Kouga vs Iga Because The write up describes Maya and Ayumi's rivalry as friendly and without ill will, but the scene presents Ayumi as almost cartoonishly evil. I have recently seen the beginning of Basilisk, and while the early portions seem to present the Iga as more sinister, the Kouga, once they learn of the duel, are no less brutal in striking back. C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo Choosing: Mugen vs Jin Because Lupin and Zenigata are a classic pair: a crafty thief against a dilligent and relentless officer; but the nature of their relationship means that Lupin has to be the one who wins for it to continue. Mugen and Jin, in comparison, have a more equal starting point.
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zawa113
Posts: 7358 |
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I am vote changing from Maya/Ayumi to Kouga/Iga clans in C-27
I've edited my post and reasons up above. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3951 Location: New York state. |
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Current scores as of this post:
Match C-25: The Princesses are running flawlessly with 13 votes. Match C-26: Yang Wen-Li/ Reinhard von Lohengramm lead 11-2. Match C-27: Kouga and Iga lead 8-5. Match C-28: Mugen and Jin lead 8-5. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Group C-25
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Voting for: Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe It's slightly funny to vote against my own mini-game pick, but never mind. There have already been quite a few arguments in favor of this particular choice, and I agree that Kamina & Simon vs. Viral suffers from one of the parties gradually becoming a non-factor. Like others have argued, the real problem isn't only the change in Viral's role, but rather his reduced importance and, by extension, that of the rivalry. In terms of what we are taking into consideration for the purposes of judging rivalries during the current tournament, that's not exactly a good thing. Having said this...the next round should, I hope, provide more of a challenge here. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Voting for: Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm As much as I enjoyed watching Gauron and Sousuke fight each other in Full Metal Panic, my appreciation for the main Legend of the Galactic Heroes rivalry is still that much greater. Why? For one thing, this is definitely a case where the exact nature, scale and even depth of the conflict between the two characters, their respective factions and personalities only comes through after seeing a sizable chunk of the series or at least more of their encounters. The available clip isn't necessarily a bad introduction, but it's certainly not enough to give a good idea of how much the rivalry develops and what it means by the end of the story. Some of the most interesting ideological implications or personal exchanges, for example, happen after a lot of build-up or even entirely outside the battlefield. In addition, another of the strengths of this rivalry involves its ability to develop in unusual ways, such as spoiler[after one of the rivals leaves the stage before the last season. The impact of said character's absence is still felt, however, as well as his political legacy.] Needless to say, those 110 episodes aren't just for show...though the sheer length of the series can also be considered a double-edged sword in this regard, if the initial episodes don't hook this or that viewer. For another, like I've probably already mentioned at one point or another, I still believe the lead-up to Gauron's final fate could have been handled better, for the sake of further developing the rivalry, even if the definitive scene itself was admittedly well executed. That wouldn't be a problem against a lesser or equal opponent, but in this particular case I believe that's enough of a reason to withdraw my support for these two. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Voting for: Kouga vs. Iga clans I imagine this may be a bit of a surprise, but...for a moment I actually seriously considered voting for Maya vs. Ayumi here. I've already discussed some of the characteristics of the Basilisk rivalry in my previous post, which should suffice for the sake of proving its worth in this context, so I suppose it's worth talking about Maya vs. Ayumi. It certainly seems fairly interesting according to the clip and capable of creating a genuine amount of tension despite the use of limited means. Not enough to vote against the alternative, but enough to make me want to see more of it. Hopefully I'll remember to check out the rest of the show. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo Voting for: Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata I suppose this could technically go either way, as far as I'm concerned, but...despite the limited character development present in the Lupin III rivalry and its inherently repetitive nature, these two are simply a lot of fun to watch and deserve some additional recognition. I won't complain if Mugen vs. Jin moves on though. |
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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Group C-25
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Without question Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe. Their passionate struggle for the princes' love and affection is a strong rivalry, portrayed in a unique way. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise I'm not sure. Both rivalries seem pretty good. I haven't watched LoGH, but I'm inclined to vote for Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard. Their rivalry may seem a little boring on the outside, but there is a deep mind game going on between the two. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk I've read the arguments and I think I'm going to vote for Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa as a matter of personal preference. The Kouga vs. Iga clans seems very run of the mill, we kill you before you kill us through physical force, very similar to many rivalries in this tournament. Even though I've never seen Glass Mask, the Maya vs. Ayumi rivalry seems very interesting. I hope to see more. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo I guess I'll vote for Mugen vs. Jin. No particularly strong reason. Just enjoy watching that rivalry more. |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4629 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Group C-25
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Voting for: Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe I really have to rewatch this show. I remember liking it so much but details are escaping me... did I really like the Tutu /Krahe match? Chances are I did more than Viral, Viral was really only slightly better than the usual persistent superior adversary. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Voting for: Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron From the looks of the tally my vote doesn't matter much but I'll give this one to the haunting presence of Gauron, even in his varying degrees of presumed death Gauron was a force of menace to Sousuke, a reminder of his past and his fallen comrades. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Voting for: Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa I'm voting against Basilisk due to my rather high standards for tragedies. For a good tragedy I feel you absolutely need that sense that things really could have gone differently with very simple and tragically missed chances. Basilisk is different, it starts with a tease that that's the case but as you go on it tells you more and more that this is not the case- this as an intractable rivalry and because of that it's not impressive to me and expected that it turns out the way it does and the fact that they're so inflexible in their shared hatred and prolonged history means that it's not a surprise and the rivalry doesn't need to move on. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo Voting for: Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata It's the history of the match that wins here. Zenigata really has nothing without his Lupin rivalry- not to say he doesn't try, he does, but no one could fill that hole for him and on Lupin's side Zenigata proves to be his measure for keeping himself sharp. It's a classic example of the long-term battle between crime-and-order battle. Mugen and Jin are basically just battling egos and inflated self-image, it can make a fun show and good ensemble bickering odd-couple dynamic but not a really impressive rivalry. |
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The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
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Group C-25
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann I do not really know much about Princess Tutu since I have never seen it. But it does have a good following here and the support for this match (and the series overall) has been positive. My vote goes to: Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Though the match is already decided, I will still vote for one of my favorite series. Also, the Arm Slave battles between these two are one of the highlights of the series. My vote goes to: Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk This is another match where I do not know both series. I am going with the Glass Mask rivalry based on arguments. My vote goes to: Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo Samurai Champloo has a lot of subtle symbolism in it. The one which concerns this match is opposites, for a lack of a better term. The two men are opposite in every way. Whereas Jin is cool, calm, collected, and civilized, Mugen is the exact opposite in this aspect. He is illiterate, hotheaded, feral, and uncouth. But what these two have in common, aside from their journey, is their swordsmanship. The only real competition for these two are each other. Note how every big name assassin and mercenary sent their way are dispatched with ease (for most part). My vote goes to: Mugen vs. Jin. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18385 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Voting is done. However, due to Preview Guide work and other distractions on my end, the official results and the next round will not be posted for at least several hours (maybe even as many as 22) from the time of this post. We'll see what my erratic work situation holds on Tuesday.
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