Forum - View topicChinese names in anime (first / last sequence issue)
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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It's quite common having Chinese characters in anime. However, in ANN their names are listed differently, either family name first as in original Chinese form (李 紅蘭 (LI Kohran) in Sakura Wars, 古 菲 (KU Fei) in Negima!) or in Westernized given name first form (李 小狼 (Syaoran LI) and 李 苺鈴 (Meiling LI) in CCS) like all Japanese names in ANN. Shall we decide a unified way to list them?
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11440 Location: Frisco, TX |
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I see a lot of that when looking at voice credits and such. And personally, I'd prefer the traditional way with last name first, first name last, but seeing as how most of the users here grew up in a Western society, then I would surmise going Western would be the best choice so as to not confuse anyone.
Of course, there are also anime that have Western names as well, but it's not as prevalent. So yeah, first name first, last name last. |
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Michi
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 741 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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Although I also prefer the family name first, given name last... A unified version with all characters regardless of culture with their names shown the Western way would be really nice to see.
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10456 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Sorry for taking so long to respond to this, but the reson I didn't reply before is pretty much that I didn't have an answer.
And I still don't. Personally I'm a bit at a loss as to what to say here. I prefer the idea of keeping people's names in their proper Chinese or Japanese order. But keeping with the western / North American standards may be more important than my personal preference. Either way, I agree that a standard rule should be devised for real people. And that it would make more sense if that rule were the same for all people. Eventualy I'd like to see a ANN option where people could decide how names would be displayed, in their original format, or in their western format. But that's a technical issue that isn't quite so simple to deal with and isn't very high on the priority list. For Chinese characters in anime, I think its probably best to list them the way they are referred to in the anime. Of course, this might vary between the Japanese version of the anime and the English version 
... I guess it makes more sense to go Western style for all names, but I'm hardly convinced of that myself... -t |
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AKosygin
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I have to totally disagree on using the "given name first, family name last" style for the following reasons:
1.) Surname first, and given name last is not a style that is exclusive to the Eastern culture, as a matter of fact, when was the last time you went to a library and looked up an author's name with their given name first? Do you not look up a person's name surname first? I believe the family name first IS the Standard for the Western/North American culture, is it not? 2.) This is an Encyclopedia if you go to any other Encyclopedia (Compton's, Britannica, etc.) do you find the name of the first President of the United States under G or under W? 3.) Listing the surname first has many advantages over the other method as it distinctly tells you which name is which. For example, a person whom has: surname "James", middle name "Scott", and a given name of "Jeffery". Would it be immediately clear which is surname and which is given name if it was A.) "James, Jeffery Scott", or B.) "Jeffery Scott James"? By forcing a comma to denote surname and given name seperation it is VERY CLEAR that James is the surname in the first example with absolutely no doubt. This is especially critical when the person's surname can be taken as a given name as James is a common first name and it is being used as a surname. 4.) It is also good practice to force a comma for romanization of Chinese/Japanese-Kanji names, because that way Li, Shaoran would be clear that Li is surname to an uninformed English reader. As even though the order of Li Shaoran without the comma is correct, putting a comma there and treating it as Li, Shaoran would prove to clear up any possible confusion in mistakenly taking Shaoran as surname when in fact it is not. I believe this format of surname first, given name after would be more appropriate, not solely because of preference, but for clarity of the information conveyed. And such clarity of information and understanding will help promote accuracy of the data in the encyclopedia ensuring data integrity. I hope this is compelling enough of a reason to standardize the default name display to family name (surname) first. Though an option to change it to the given name first would be a good alternative to those whom highly prefer given name first. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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AKosygin, I agree most of your points, however there are some technical issues (maybe you could lend a hand
 ).
Unlike cast/staff database, where family and given names are separate, the "role" consists only one single database field, for there are characters with only family name, with only given name, with no name but some description, or with nothing at all (when information is incomplete). It does not have an option you could select like in the Encyclopedia Preference, unless we redesign a new system e.g. using two or more fields for characters' first name, last name, and description, instead of just one field for everything. And I'd say even if we do have such a complex database, some user would keep entering "reversed" names for cast/staff/characters. 
I've also noticed that while hardcore Westerner fans tend to refer names in its original Japanese form (Last - First), more and more official Japanese websites for newer anime titles have listed characters' names in First - Last pattern in English/romaji, right besides Last - First format for kanji/furigana. It could be that those production studios have kept an eye on the ever-increasing Western market (US in particular) and have arranged names in that way. Some titles even have dedicated English pages (not ones hosted by English licensers, but by Japanese production studios). |
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EmperorBrandon
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 2215 Location: Springfield, MO |
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Well, in the case of the CCS character, if you wanted to be more authentic it would be "Li, Xiaolang". The issue of how to enter the Chinese leads in CCS in has been a headache for me. I opted for Pioneer's official spellings of "Shaoran Li" and "Meilin Li", but then there's also Syaoran (used by CLAMP's website and several Japanese sources; personally I prefer using "sha" to "sya"), Xiaolang (above-mentioned) and Meiling (which is the authentic name). Since some other people have entered them a little differently, Motoko Kumai and Yukana Nogami's roles across CCS (TV, movie 1, movie 2, and Kero short) are inconsistently listed at this point.
I'd really want their roles to be laid out consistently, so is there any way that would be preferred for ANN? I'll go ahead and change my CCS entries to reflect if needed. |
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AKosygin
Posts: 15 |
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Let me first discuss the issue of the spelling on this post first because I have a suggestion for this already. (I'll post the surname, given name speration at another reply when I have it throught out.)
As for the spelling issue, it is a general good rule to follow the "official" spelling given by the creators to retain fidelity in the information related to the subject. Meaning even though the correct Chinese spelling is Li, Xiaolang, this is not used by Clamp and thus not be used no matter how linguisticly incorrect it may be. You want the readers to be able to point to the information in the Encyclopedia and point to what they see with the official materials and not question whether there was an error somewhere. This leads to the issue of "What happens if the spelling in the Japanese books are different from the English releases even if both are in Romaji/English?" My personal answer would be, the Japanese spelling ALWAYS wins, because they are the creator, and their word is more authoritative. HOWEVER, my personal preferences aside, the proper comprimise would be that the name of the character tied with the Japanese cast should be spelt the JAPANESE WAY; and the name of the same character tied with the English cast be spelt the ENGLISH WAY. This is so that we know the following information: 1.) That there is a difference between the Japanese version and the English version. 2.) The reader of the Encyclopedia can find the character name appropriately based upon the version they have seen. 3.) Guarantee that if there are any hidden meanings, puns, or relations of the character names overlooked by the licensing company, we will know and can see it. Thus ensuring the accuracy of the database. For example, in Card Captor Sakura where in Japanese it is Tomoyo and English it is Madison. If both the Japanese and English entries were one or the other, the reader/viewer of the series would be unable to find the VA for the character if it was not listed in the language that they saw/heard the name in. Therefore it would make sense if we lay down the rule that Character names applied to Japanese cast must come from the Japanese romaji provided by an official JAPANESE SOURCE; while the character names applied to the corresponding English cast must come from the English spelling provided by an official (usually the licensing company) ENGLISH SOURCE. Furthermore, in case of conflict between different versions but the same language source, the source closest to the medium of the entry concerned closest to the author's hand will win. For Example: 1.) Creator drew the Manga for series "A" with a character named "Kouji" 2.) And someone else produced the Anime for series "A" with the same character named "Kohji" 3.) But an Art book for the Manga lists the same character name as "Koji" Then in the entry for the Manga, it must stay as "Kouji" because of two reasons: 1.) The Manga is closest to the author's hand, and 2.) The name Kouji is tied to the manga which the entry is talking about, not the Anime, and not the art-book. But in the entry of the Anime, we will need to use "Kohji" to maintain relavance of the entry even though the Manga and the Art Book is closer to the author's hand. Therefore the order of priority in which we take things in to account to the specific information of an entry depends on how closely related is the source to the entry we are trying to make. Based upon how the Encyclopedia is currently organized, we want to make it as close to the entry we are talking about as possible in this order: 1.) Language (Japanese, English, etc.) 2.) Format (Anime, Manga, etc.) 3.) Author's hand (which source is closest to the author?) 4.) Date (which one is later?) If there were two Japanese Manga sets with different spellings of the same name, then take in to account which one was made by the author and which one is not? If they are both done by the author, then the date will determine it as the author may have made a "correction". |
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AKosygin
Posts: 15 |
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In all cases, it is likely we need at least one more column. But basically it works like this to cover the four areas covered (plus some subareas). You create one more column inside the database that is a "flag" for the type of data that is in the single column for cast role. And depending on the number of the flag (or lack of a number), it will indicate what kind of information is there. If it is set to: NULL - The database field has not been set or defined, this results from the conversion of this new column from old data. Users are free to contribute to the encyclopedia by selecting a mode or editing the entry. 0 - The name provided is as written from the source obtained and the user does not know which is family name and which is given name. 1 - The contributor knows this is a name and has provided it. The name given is a full name, family name first, and thus should include a comma inside the field and that will be the delimiter seperating the family name from the rest of the name. So the code can parse the input. 2 - The contributor knows this is a name, but a family name was not provided and thus the entry is only a given name. 3 - The contributor knows this is a name, but a given name was not provided and thus the entry is only a family name. 4 - This is not a name and is a description of the role. I.E.: "Sports Commentator" or "News Anchor" or "Tennis Guy 1" Then for the null entry, when someone knows what it is, they can assign one of the four options above. If it is a full name (option 1), then they can provide where to put the seperation between given name and family name, then specify what order it is. The code should then reorganize the data accordingly with a comma in there and update the database. But if it is a new entry and it is set to unknown (option 0), another user can choose option 1, 2, or 3. And if it is a full name, they can specify it like I have mentioned above. Then the site should be programmed to be able to parse the information given the value in the "name type flag" column of the database.
This issue was kinda addressed up the thread a bit. It is preferred to list Surname - Givenname format to increase clarity, and that if the US studios reverse it, then it will be at the mercy of the person inputting the information. The best we can do is ask the user to make sure that the name is given in a certain order. Also, we might want to create a database of names which are to rank the likelyhood of a part of a name entered in reverse like how we do with the staff and cast. |
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EmperorBrandon
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 2215 Location: Springfield, MO |
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The thing is that some official Japanese romanizations tend to overlook those things as well. It's definitely safe to say that in Oh My Goddess!, the main character is supposed to be "Verdandi" (in reference to Norse mythology), but the official romanization ended up being "Belldandy". The same goes for "Li Xiaolang". They aren't commonly used in anime fandom (and probably shouldn't be in the encyclopedia), but if you were arguing on a purely etymological basis, those would be the romanization you use. You also have to keep in mind that the spellings used by R1 companies are sometimes given to them or even required by the Japanese licensor, even if they may be incorrect ("Arucard", for instance). R1 DVD's are usually the most familiar official source to English-speaking anime fans. Fansubs are also familiar to many fans, but are unofficial. Fansubbers may have used romanizations from official sources, but if there's no way to confirm that, than the spellings on R1 DVD's should take precedence. I do agree with you on the matter of relevance, though. Things like "Tomoyo" and "Madison" go without saying. Putting Veronica Taylor down as "Satoshi" in a Pokemon entry would be weird, as would Rica Matsumoto as "Ash". To bring up an example where this applies, there's Princess Tutu. ADV translated "Ahiru" and "Neko-sensei" as "Duck" and "Mr. Cat". I added in "Duck" and "Mr. Cat" for the English language entry, but obviously "Ahiru" and "Neko-sensei" should stay for the Japanese entry, even if ADV translates the name in their subtitles and Japanese VA credits. An interesting note on this though, is that Neko-sensei has been translated when he's been romanized in some Japanese materials: "Mr. Cat" (English) and "Herr Katze" (German). |
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EmperorBrandon
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 2215 Location: Springfield, MO |
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It's pretty complex, but sounds interesting. Would someone who hasn't entered the data be able to work with this, though? There's already that problem with inputting a character as primary/secondary character. Though I handle that kind of thing through error reports easily enough, that might get to be a big problem in the case of this given/family name system. I would expect many people who have already entered their information would not go back and change all of it immediately. And what about those funky royal family full names in Tenchi Muyo (those things had me confused for a while...)? For instance, Sasami's full name is written "Masaki Sasami Jurai" in Japanese. "Sasami" is her given name and "Masaki Jurai" is her family name (Masaki being the the particular house of the Jurai family that she belongs to). It would come up as "Masaki Jurai, Sasami" though that's not really the order in which her name is written in Japanese. |
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AKosygin
Posts: 15 |
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I think this will have to be decided amongst the staff because it is an issue of "control" and not accuracy per-say.
As for the Long surname issue, that is why in the programming you add at which space do you want it divided, or provide them with the selection to put the comma at one of the spaces. Also, such a thing is rare and usually doesn't happen often enough to warrant a programming code for it.
As in this case, I don't see it as an incorrect pun, I think it is more a deliberate act to make it "less obvious". And even if it is indeed an error, it retains the accuracy of the encyclopedia to the series we are talking about not Verdandi from Norse mythology despite the reference. |
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