Forum - View topicBrain Diving - You Fight like a Girl
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here-and-faraway
 Posts: 1529 Location: Sunny California |
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So it sounds like Saito argues that Japan invented "Girl Power"? I'm going to hold off on listing examples of young, fighting virgin girls in myths from various cultures around the world because the truth is that even if I know about them, chances are the average Joe doesn't. It does seem fair to say that Japan was the first to mass market beautiful fighting girls.
Okay. I know it's not always easy to be a pioneer, so I think it's fair to give Saito some leeway and give him props for triggering people to analyze anime and manga.
Does Saito just focus on the fact that otaku are mild mannered people with kinky daydreams? Or does he address that the bulk of anime/manga fighting girls either a) often depend on or need a man to help them and/or b) are emotionally unstable. Of course there are some exceptions to this rule, such as some of Miyazaki's heroines, but most beautiful fighting girls are not Nausicaas. I'm not trying to throw stones at anime heroines or beat up Saito. That's not my intent. I'm just curious about how deep he delves into what people are daydreaming about. It sounds like he traces how fighting girls have evolved, but doesn't dig too deeply there?
Thank you Saito! |
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here-and-faraway
Posts: 1529 Location: Sunny California |
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PS: Thanks for the interesting review!
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Jessica Hart
 Posts: 219 |
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While I dunno if I'd say Japan invented it, I'll say they're hands down the best at it; at least when it comes to animation. I think it's really funny when you see people go 'Oh man, Japan's so sexist, look at these ecchi harem shows about a group of girls fighting over a guy like Tenchi or Keitaro and this hentai, it's so demeaning to women' but they ignore all the shows that star females and stuff.
 Also they ignore all the BL and reverse-harem shows like Ouran Host Club with a bunch of pretty boys. Girls can be pervy too, you know.
America is like the opposite when it comes to cartoons, they're so afraid of stirring the hornets nest of PTA mothers or feminists, they either make the females completely perfect, boring, and unrelatable (Kim Possible) or just don't even bother making a show starring a female and just default to male. Pretty much every cartoon on TV stars a male, while it seems like 50/50 in Japan. If anything, I think the fact Japan never had a huge feminist movement like we did is why they're able to craft so many different female characters without fear of any outcry from those movements. Everyone has a different idea of feminism so you'll never please everyone, so most writers don't even bother trying. So in a way femnism is actually keeping women down here 
Sailor Moon stars a clumsy but well meaning girl who is lazy, somewhat selfish and cries a lot in the beginning. I doubt that would pass here because it'd be considered a 'weak role model for girls', despite the fact I don't know any girls who are perfect or flawless like Kim Possible or Wonder Woman, but I can name a lot of lazy girls or girls who are, God forbid, stupid and fail tests like Usagi did. Unlike Kim Possible who pretty much was perfect at everything she did. Besides, it allowed for Usagi to grow into a more mature and determined person as the show went on. Character growth, people! |
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Hey now, Kim Possible is one of my favorite shows. And she is most definitely far from perfect. Most of the episode premises are about her going through some problem and then having to foil a villainous plot while dealing with that problem (such as "Downhill" regarding her dislike of her parents; "Roachie," about envy over being afraid of something Ron is not; and "Team Impossible" which, after almost 4 seasons, finally dealt with her dependence on the kindness of strangers). If she was perfect, then the show would not have nearly the level of popularity that it does.
But I disgress. I'd like to know if there have been any subsequent works that came out. This was made 11 years ago, and it feels like the role of girls in anime as a whole has shifted somewhat. Or maybe they've just been further compartmentalized for specific audiences, since there are a lot of shows being released for niches (of every age and sex). |
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Jessica Hart
Posts: 219 |
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Sorry, I just find her to be one of the worst examples of a female character out there. I also would like to point out any flaw she has is the classic 'flaw of the day'. Where a character only learns about the flaw they have in that episode and it's miraculously resolved by the end to he episode and never mentioned again; the old 'moral of the day' thing kids shows use.
It doesn't help her sidekick is a bumbling male and the whole 'bumbling idiot guy who constantly gets bailed out by his smart, competent female friend' is so common not only in cartoons, but in sitcoms as well. I get the impression women are only competent when all the men are below them on several levels.
I'm watching Suite PreCure right now, and PreCure has always done a great job with it's characters. Hibiki is kind of lazy and reckless, which gets her into trouble. Kanade is more calm and thoughtful, but can easily become even more emotional and reckless than Hibiki when certain things are involved. The whole first arc is about them fighting all the time and having to work together; later on they can work together and fight at the same time which is cute and shows progress on their part. |
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Melanchthon
 Posts: 550 Location: Northwest from Here |
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I would like know what Mr. Saito's definition of 'sexual perversion' is. It appears to me that the 'beautiful fighting girl' is a repudiation of traditional male gender roles, which is why the theme is preferred by those who don't fulfill the traditional male gender role, i.e. otaku. Since the female is strong, the male doesn't have to fear failing to met his historical role, and is able to build a more equitable relationship between the two. It is not the submissive wife and dominating husband, but rather a relationship of equals built on mutual attraction. I hardly see how this is a 'perversion'.
Or in other words, this |
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nhat
Posts: 922 |
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The stereotypical dumb men stereotype. I got a good chuckle out of that one, lol. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Wonder Woman pre-dates the earliest example given in the article by the best part of two decades. Same goes for Valkyrie (the comic book character) and various "jungle girl" characters, which first appeared in pulp literature before World War One and were common in both UK and US comics from the 1930s onwards. |
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here-and-faraway
Posts: 1529 Location: Sunny California |
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Yeah, but she's Wonder WOMAN and Valkyrie is a woman too. The jungle girls I'm thinking of, like Sheena, are also women. According to the article, the focus of the books is on young (like around 12-15 year old) "girls" and not mature (20 and up - I know, I know, 20 is young, but in comic terms that's a woman) women.
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Jessica Hart
Posts: 219 |
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Well he did say it was more about girls rather than adult women. Cutey Honey (1973) is pretty ironic, and holds the mantle of being the first female lead in a shounen manga. It's the story of a schoolgirl who's father is murdered by a mysterious group and she dons a sword and seeks revenge on them. Before that, there was Princess Knight (1954) which was about a young princess who fulfilled her father's dying wish of cross-dressing as a boy in order to go on a quest to prove her worth to take the throne. She cross dressed because in her kingdom, women are not allowed to take the throne. Her father asked her to do this because the evil duke of his kingdom was next in line for the throne, and he feared the Duke would ruin his Kingdom and turn it into an oppressive dictatorship. She goes on an adventure and fights various opponents to prove her worth. Along the way she teams up with a Prince of a neighboring country, and develops feelings for him, but must restrain them in order to keep her true identity a secret. The Mysterious Clover (1933) was about a teenage street urchin girl named Clover who protected the poor people in a city from the noblemen who abused them on a regular basis; similar to Robin Hood and Zorro. Shoujo manga dates back to as early as 1903, interestingly enough, where they had multiple serial magazines similar to Weekly Shounen Jump does now, but I'm nowhere near versed enough in stuff that old to reference any titles from back then. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18462 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Yeah, I'd really like to see how Saito is justifying that. Saying that Buffy was influenced by American comics would be much more accurate, as Joss Whedon has cited the X-Men's Kitty Pryde as a major influence. Whedon has also stated that the premise was meant to be a perversion of the "victimized blond girl" so common in horror movies in the mid-to-late 20th century. Nothing that I've ever read about Buffy shows any trace of anime/manga influence, nor have I ever gotten a whiff of such influence when actually watching the movie or series. If anything, the reverse might be more true, since Buffy is widely-recognized as having been influential. |
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DavidShallcross
 Posts: 1008 |
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At one point, Devil Hunter Yohko was bandied about as a possible influence on Buffy. I don't know of any actual evidence, other than the superficial similarity.
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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While Saito is probably stretching to justify some of his arguments, I do think the idea that anime and manga has created a genre out of the beautiful fighting girl concept is sound. You can go on and say "What about Buffy, Wonder Woman, etc,." But if you stop and think about it, you basically listed the entire exceptions to the rule on one hand.
You can make a never ending spreadsheet listing all the fighting girl anime characters. In the west, you can list maybe 5 off the top of your head. If you're really knowledgeable about pop culture(like, say, knowing who Modesty Blaise is), you might be able to get your list to 15 or 20. |
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Julia-the-Great
 Posts: 328 |
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What, no mention of Super Girl? (Although, truth be told, I don't actually know how old Super Girl is supposed to be... but she has "Girl" right there in her title!)
Or some of the X-Men were teenagers, like Kitty Pryde and Jubilee. The Teen Titans included a good amount of strong girl characters, and mind you, I'm talking about the comic books (rather than the anime influenced tv show), which started in 1964. Female Teen Titans included Starfire, Raven, Donna Troy (Wonder Girl), and Bumblebee, to name a few. And, let's not forget the ORIGINAL Fighting Girl, Joan of Arc. Yeah, she's not a fictional character, but I can bet you she's been an inspiration somewhere along the line. Last edited by Julia-the-Great on Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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One of the most unique personality traits about Sailor Moon, especially as the series went on, was her indomitable ability to forgive. And that's unique because not everyone always agreed with her (not even some viewers). In examples like Kim Possible, morally she's always on the same side as viewers and all the "good" guys. There is no nuance, no individuality to that. She always falls squarely on the side that is clearly agreeable. I know many viewers would not have chosen to forgive Galaxia, or to stubbornly not choose to kill one to save a majority (not saying that Sailor Moon would sacrifice a majority to save one, just that she thought she could find a way to circumvent those options). I know a helluva lot of viewers were kind of mad at Sailor Moon moral stand at the end of Season 3. I personally didn't necessarily agree with her all the time, but my respect for her as an individual rose several notches. That's what makes a good character, someone with her own beliefs and opinions that are unique to herself only, and isn't necessarily pandering to a majority opinion. |
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