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Last edited by jtnishi on Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:24 pm; edited 3 times in total

Congratulations, Chase!

8000+ uniques? That's quite a hard number to attain for a first year! Heck, AX took about 9 years to get there. That number would make AM2 the third largest anime con in CA, after AX and Fanime, and Fanime was only about double the attendance. And you doubled Anime LA 2011. And maybe 10 times PMX's size! In fact, you're close to the size of Katsucon, on the east. So definitely not bad for a first year.

By the way, curious: how did you manage to get 8000+ uniques and still have people describe the con as quiet and relaxing with a dealer's hall that was small and sparsely attended?

And thanks for advising that the competition was friendly against AX. Did you know that AX is on track to hit 50000+ uniques this year? It's grown even though you were running! I guess there is room for two cons the same weekend!

By the way, sorry you couldn't quite get to the 10-12K you were expecting.

By the way, just as a favor for us, would it be possible to ask a few friends who were over at AM2 to corroborate the count? Y'know, just to make sure that it felt like over 8000 to them rather than closer to, I don't know, maybe 1000 give or take?

spoiler[Hope you can come back for another year! I think the fact that you were able to draw away attendees who went to a free event because it was free and got what they paid for from the event that had more paid attendees that made the con feel a bit less like a riot was quite nice of you as a favor!]This probably was a bit too far. I still however stand by my snarkiness across the rest of the post.

PS: Got a call from the Libyan propaganda ministry. Heard they're taking applications and would love for one from you!

jtnishi wrote:

By the way, curious: how did you manage to get 8000+ uniques and still have people describe the con as quiet and relaxing with a dealer's hall that was small and sparsely attended?

My guess would be that being a free event they had a lot of people who showed up for a couple hours to check it out and leave or pop in from AX to see the concerts. I imagine a lot of parents dropped their kids off for a little while to get them out of their hair. Three days of people coming and going like it's a fair instead of a convention probably would give them a lot of traffic. The attendance would certainly be considerably lower if people had pay a registration fee to get in.

Emerje

Last edited by germx on Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

Jealousy sure looks ugly Rolling Eyes

I had a lot of fun at AM2. It was a little like paradise for me though because I wasn't gung-ho about getting the best seats, so I'd just walk in panels/the concert area (without waiting in line at all) and enjoy the shows/discussion from the back. It was really nice.

It's like going to Six Flags when all the annoying high schoolers are in school, and getting on all the best rides with little to no wait time.

Best experience ever for me, personally.

I sort of selfishly wish they won't be that popular next year so I can experience this again, but the more the merrier I guess.

The two short cartoon films KanonxKanon made just for AM2 at panel and at the concert was really neat. I enjoyed those extra efforts that the GoHs went through so that people enjoyed their performances/panels. It made the con feel more intimate and special.

Also don't forget that AM2 is not just an anime con. It's equally emphasized area is music. I'd say that a lot of older adults (or people in their 20s) might enjoy this con more than AX since it doesn't center so much around anime (which I personally do not watch anymore, not since high school).

As for how sparsely AM2 looked like in those article pictures, I was actually in the Hall when those pics were taken (I remember that red lady singing and watching her; she was pretty funny). Those pictures were taken during the time that people were being seated for the fashion show/concert by Heidi., so everyone was upstairs.

I'm not too good with guesstimating numbers but I think there were at least 1000 people in the convention center at any given time ('cept for the early mornings). Everyone was spread out or waiting for stuff though. Personally I think they should've squeezed some stuff (location wise) closer together instead of spreading stuff across three whole floors, but I guess it's good exercise.

Not gonna bother to read the first post since it looked like trolling to me, but I do have legitimate questions about how they calculated their numbers. I mean, the only sure fire way to count would be with their passports. Everyone else could come and go as they pleased. So how is it that they can assume 8,000 "unique" people attended. If Zac and Justin have Chase back on their show, I would hope they ask him how they can trust his numbers. because yea, those pics we saw in the report don't give me the impression that this was a big event.

I would have loved to have met the two Japanese animation people they brought over. I was at AX and had a blast, but I had hoped that there was a lull on one of the days so that I could hop on over to check this event out.

Vapors wrote:

Not gonna bother to read the first post since it looked like trolling to me, but I do have legitimate questions about how they calculated their numbers. I mean, the only sure fire way to count would be with their passports. Everyone else could come and go as they pleased. So how is it that they can assume 8,000 "unique" people attended. If Zac and Justin have Chase back on their show, I would hope they ask him how they can trust his numbers. because yea, those pics we saw in the report don't give me the impression that this was a big event.

I would have loved to have met the two Japanese animation people they brought over. I was at AX and had a blast, but I had hoped that there was a lull on one of the days so that I could hop on over to check this event out.

I know that one of the ways they were counting bodies was via the number of people who entered the Exhibit Hall (at the doors there were these counting machines? those things you walk through and it clicks and adds a number to its counter). When people exited the hall they had their hand stamped, and if they wanted to re-enter the hall they had to go through a different door.

Overall though I don't think that AM2 as a con is meant to hold more than ~20k people anyway. The concert area probably cannot hold more than 1-2k people at a time. AM2 generated ~40k to donate to Japan relief efforts which I believe is 25% of passport sales ('official' sales) so they probably make enough via passport sales to support itself as an annual con. I think AM2 wants interest and wants to be a popular con to go to, but I don't think they're aiming to be a con that's so packed that people do not enjoy their experience if they are waiting in line most of the time. Sometimes there is too much of a good thing.

To start, I won't dispute my second to last paragraph is a bit over the line. I've edited the post to blackmark it.

Emerje wrote:

My guess would be that being a free event they had a lot of people who showed up for a couple hours to check it out and leave or pop in from AX to see the concerts. I imagine a lot of parents dropped their kids off for a little while to get them out of their hair. Three days of people coming and going like it's a fair instead of a convention probably would give them a lot of traffic. The attendance would certainly be considerably lower if people had pay a registration fee to get in.

While perhaps a possibility, the yield of an 8000+ unique count as a result would still be suspect. At the least, the question becomes did the con require registration of all people for free badges. And if not, how could they safely count someone as "unique" outside their passport sales.

germx wrote:

I had a lot of fun at AM2. It was a little like paradise for me though because I wasn't gung-ho about getting the best seats, so I'd just walk in panels/the concert area (without waiting in line at all) and enjoy the shows/discussion from the back. It was really nice.

It's like going to Six Flags when all the annoying high schoolers are in school, and getting on all the best rides with little to no wait time.

Best experience ever for me, personally.

I sort of selfishly wish they won't be that popular next year so I can experience this again, but the more the merrier I guess.

If you had fun at AM2, great! I'm not going to argue that there weren't people who had fun at the con.

My concern, however, has less to do with the con, and more to do with Chase having issues owning up to his own numbers. From what I've gathered from people who had been at AM2 over the 3 days, AM2 did not appear to have attendance that matched anything like an 8000+ unique attendee con. Again, as point of reference, Anime LA had 3600 uniques this year. Fanime hasn't come up with a final number that I'm aware of, but 17000-18000 uniques is the likely final. AM2 is claiming in between those numbers.

If Chase wants to get quotes saying he ran a fun event, fine. Not going to fault him. But to claim records in attendance for a first year convention for the attendance that appeared to be at the event? Really pushing it.

Vapors wrote:

Not gonna bother to read the first post since it looked like trolling to me, but I do have legitimate questions about how they calculated their numbers. I mean, the only sure fire way to count would be with their passports. Everyone else could come and go as they pleased. So how is it that they can assume 8,000 "unique" people attended. If Zac and Justin have Chase back on their show, I would hope they ask him how they can trust his numbers. because yea, those pics we saw in the report don't give me the impression that this was a big event.

I would have loved to have met the two Japanese animation people they brought over. I was at AX and had a blast, but I had hoped that there was a lull on one of the days so that I could hop on over to check this event out.

Oh, I'm not going to dispute that my first post was being quite sarcastic. I have not been fond of Chase's PR tactics with his event to this point, but putting out a press release with a unique number so deeply suspicious when compared against what I've heard from friends who attended is just a bit too much.

germx wrote:

I know that one of the ways they were counting bodies was via the number of people who entered the Exhibit Hall (at the doors there were these counting machines? those things you walk through and it clicks and adds a number to its counter). When people exited the hall they had their hand stamped, and if they wanted to re-enter the hall they had to go through a different door.

This is what might be better called a turnstile number. In fact, it quite literally would be a turnstile number. People normally don't carry handstamps across days, ergo a turnstile number can be better thought of as total attendee-days. For comparision: AX is claiming 128000 turnstile count, but about 47000 unique, as of today, for 2011 (which, by the way, is still growth over last year, and certainly felt like the crowds were still heavy).

Now, an 8000+ turnstile number would still be somewhat suspect, but could be chalked up to far more innocuous things (people being clustered in events like the concerts meaning they weren't well observed, the size of the venue compared to the attendance base throwing off perspective, etc.). An 8000+ unique attendee count, however, is a very different number. That's 8000+ different people attending the event over some number of days. An attendee going 1 day and an attendee going 3 days both yield a unique count of 1, but the 3 day attendee reflects 3 in a turnstile count. Cons like this tend to show certain crowds spread across the venue, something that I've been told was not seen at the con. The concerts might've been heavily attended for a few acts, but the concerts + events yielding 8000+ uniques really is that suspect.

Last edited by germx on Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

jtnishi wrote:

your post here

Dude why do you even care? I know I don't really care. You seem pretty hung up on creating some e-drama over a number.
Laughing

If 8000 is such a difficult number for you then maybe next year you should actually attend AM2 all 3 days to see for yourself.

Such a unique count would make sense to me. I imagine SCANDAL has a lot of fans after doing the themes to FMA Brotherhood, Bleach, and Star Driver for instance. And that's just one concert. Then there's another for kanonxkanon (who did Shiki's theme) along with several other concerts that would have their own pull.

germx wrote:

jtnishi wrote:

your post here

Dude why do you even care? I know I don't really care. You seem pretty hung up on creating some e-drama over a number.
Laughing

If 8000 is such a difficult number for you then maybe next year you should actually attend AM2 all 3 days to see for yourself.

This is the internet. Anything that can be argued, will be argued, regardless of how important or relavent it is.

In this case, though, I can kind of understand the attention. Anyone who claims to set a record is basically asking for people to look into his claims and see if he really is setting a record.

I thought AM2 was a good convention, especially for a first time con. I loved that you could take time to get to know the guests instead of a "Please sign here-k-thanks" experience that I get at AX. On the guest intro, they mention a little tidbit about the guest, such as a type of candy they like, etc. It made it a lot easier for those of us who like to bring the guest a little trinket.

I don't know how AM2 figured out their total count, but I would not have been surprised. I went specifically for the animators and a lot of other people went for the music groups. I'm sure there were certain attendees who went to see one group perform and maybe not the others, so, it might make sense that they only came for one day, or for a few hours each day.

The location was nice, it was easy to get in and out (at least compared to AX), and I loved that it was not in the middle of the freakin' ghetto like AX. I loved that the registration process on Day 2 took a total of 5 minutes.

Megiddo wrote:

Such a unique count would make sense to me. I imagine SCANDAL has a lot of fans after doing the themes to FMA Brotherhood, Bleach, and Star Driver for instance. And that's just one concert. Then there's another for kanonxkanon (who did Shiki's theme) along with several other concerts that would have their own pull.

Well, I'll ask this to anyone who went to the SCANDAL concert, which will help determine attendance. I assume the concert was held in the 3rd floor large ballroom? Were they using seats, and were they using the full size of the room (ie: the full set of ballrooms - from one side to the other in the long direction should have been about 300', and 120' regardless in the short width)? From past experience when AX used to use Anaheim, and by Anaheim CC's page, in a seated environment, if the room was full from front to back with every seat taken, there'd be 3807 attendees for an event. And given that was a Sunday event from my understanding, and that Sunday was a light day, if they had a packed full ballroom for that concert, I'll concede a possibility (but I'd still argue unlikelyhood) of 8000+ uniques. However, that's really the only way that number could even be remotely plausible.

While the other concerts are possibly drivers, the problem is that the report Bamboo posted (which I saw early July 4th, and dated July 3rd, probably late evening) seems to suggest the concerts through Saturday drew in crowds closer to 500, and the concerts based on everything else drew in a crowd much larger than people doing other things at the event. That far more suggests 1000-2000 people as uniques for Friday and Saturday and a bit for Sunday. The only factor that really could drive attendance Sunday was SCANDAL. I did hear the attendance at the concert was possibly better than the other concerts at the con, but that's about it. So it needs to demonstrate something large to give a possibility of extending that number by 6000...

germx wrote:

jtnishi wrote:

your post here

Dude why do you even care? I know I don't really care. You seem pretty hung up on creating some e-drama over a number.
Laughing

If 8000 is such a difficult number for you then maybe next year you should actually attend AM2 all 3 days to see for yourself.

As I've stated, I have a dislike of Chase and his tactics. For someone whose job is PR and marketing, he really has quite a bit to learn about doing it properly, and about being cautious about using hyperbole, lest no one take the contents of his press releases seriously.

The other thing is that I have a journalist's/skeptic's instinct, and when I smell a fishy fact, it bugs me. And that 8000+ unique number bugs me. Every piece of evidence I have so far suggests that number is inflated by far more than 100%, perhaps closer to 300-500%. It does not help that I have many friends who staff many cons. Cons who are far more honest about their numbers. Dishonest numbers not only distort the performance of a con, but they drive attendance (by way of trying to demonstrate critical mass) that the event doesn't honestly deserve.

As for attending? Well, if you had a good time, feel free to knock yourself out. Despite the press release claim, I know what I heard from the people I know, and I know that if there is a true critical mass, my friends are mostly not the ones driving it, this time or in the future. I had perhaps only one reason to consider going to AM2 this time around, and actually, given it, I probably would've seriously considered except for the fact that it would've shoved me away from things for several hours that I couldn't really spare at all on Sunday (no, not the SCANDAL concert; I had a couple of west coast and east coast friends competing in WCS).

jtnishi wrote:

Megiddo wrote:

Such a unique count would make sense to me. I imagine SCANDAL has a lot of fans after doing the themes to FMA Brotherhood, Bleach, and Star Driver for instance. And that's just one concert. Then there's another for kanonxkanon (who did Shiki's theme) along with several other concerts that would have their own pull.

Well, I'll ask this to anyone who went to the SCANDAL concert, which will help determine attendance. I assume the concert was held in the 3rd floor large ballroom? Were they using seats, and were they using the full size of the room (ie: the full set of ballrooms - from one side to the other in the long direction should have been about 300', and 120' regardless in the short width)? From past experience when AX used to use Anaheim, and by Anaheim CC's page, in a seated environment, if the room was full from front to back with every seat taken, there'd be 3807 attendees for an event. And given that was a Sunday event from my understanding, and that Sunday was a light day, if they had a packed full ballroom for that concert, I'll concede a possibility (but I'd still argue unlikelyhood) of 8000+ uniques. However, that's really the only way that number could even be remotely plausible.

While the other concerts are possibly drivers, the problem is that the report Bamboo posted (which I saw early July 4th, and dated July 3rd, probably late evening) seems to suggest the concerts through Saturday drew in crowds closer to 500, and the concerts based on everything else drew in a crowd much larger than people doing other things at the event. That far more suggests 1000-2000 people as uniques for Friday and Saturday and a bit for Sunday. The only factor that really could drive attendance Sunday was SCANDAL. I did hear the attendance at the concert was possibly better than the other concerts at the con, but that's about it. So it needs to demonstrate something large to give a possibility of extending that number by 6000...

germx wrote:

jtnishi wrote:

your post here

Dude why do you even care? I know I don't really care. You seem pretty hung up on creating some e-drama over a number.
Laughing

If 8000 is such a difficult number for you then maybe next year you should actually attend AM2 all 3 days to see for yourself.

As I've stated, I have a dislike of Chase and his tactics. For someone whose job is PR and marketing, he really has quite a bit to learn about doing it properly, and about being cautious about using hyperbole, lest no one take the contents of his press releases seriously.

The other thing is that I have a journalist's/skeptic's instinct, and when I smell a fishy fact, it bugs me. And that 8000+ unique number bugs me. Every piece of evidence I have so far suggests that number is inflated by far more than 100%, perhaps closer to 300-500%. It does not help that I have many friends who staff many cons. Cons who are far more honest about their numbers. Dishonest numbers not only distort the performance of a con, but they drive attendance (by way of trying to demonstrate critical mass) that the event doesn't honestly deserve.

As for attending? Well, if you had a good time, feel free to knock yourself out. Despite the press release claim, I know what I heard from the people I know, and I know that if there is a true critical mass, my friends are mostly not the ones driving it, this time or in the future. I had perhaps only one reason to consider going to AM2 this time around, and actually, given it, I probably would've seriously considered except for the fact that it would've shoved me away from things for several hours that I couldn't really spare at all on Sunday (no, not the SCANDAL concert; I had a couple of west coast and east coast friends competing in WCS).

Well whatever. According to Maki on the AM2 forums 8000+ is not a turnstyle number.

Keep stewing the drama pot if it makes you feel better though.

germx wrote:

Well whatever. According to Maki on the AM2 forums 8000+ is not a turnstyle number.

Keep stewing the drama pot if it makes you feel better though.

Come on now, his initial post may have been... well, needlessly inflamatory, but since then he's been pretty reasonable I think. Can you blame him for being at least a little curious how AM2 figured out the 8,000+ number?

Mad_Scientist wrote:

germx wrote:

Well whatever. According to Maki on the AM2 forums 8000+ is not a turnstyle number.

Keep stewing the drama pot if it makes you feel better though.

Come on now, his initial post may have been... well, needlessly inflamatory, but since then he's been pretty reasonable I think. Can you blame him for being at least a little curious how AM2 figured out the 8,000+ number?

There's a difference between being curious and being a needless drama queen about it though.

According to Maki they'll be releasing that info later. A more mature person would've realized that it takes time for information to get out, but I guess we can't expect everyone to be patient.

germx wrote:

Well whatever. According to Maki on the AM2 forums 8000+ is not a turnstyle number.

Keep stewing the drama pot if it makes you feel better though.

Chase writes the PRs and is the person at the top of the event. And he wrote 8000+ unique. Maki is the webmaster/forum admin. She would not have any reason to contradict the number, as she's staff. There is no dispute that they're both stating 8000+ unique. And I wouldn't have much reason to believe that every other staff member of AM2 asked would probably state the same thing. The issue is whether there actually was 8000+ unique as they stated.

If you have an issue with me challenging the fact that there were 8000+ unique there, I'd like to hear the case you have that that number was true rather than false. Can you help by providing pictures?

I'm not challenging whether the event was liked by the people there. If the con was well liked by it's attendees, the growth of the event (to a point of over 8000+ unique over time perhaps) can happen, just by word of mouth, as it has with many other events. And if it happens, then I have no real problems with that. I have a distinct problem however of driving attendance to an event by dirty tactics, including deceit. If he wants to compete against AX, fine. But if he thinks he's going to get an advantage by lying, those of us in the community watching and willing to question assertions will question them.

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