Forum - View topicAmerimanga and style prejudice
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Jadress
 Posts: 809 Location: Seattle. It purdy and nerdy! |
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Lately I noticed a lot of people bashing Japanese-style comics by nonJapanese, saying that they are either trying to cash in on the style, or otherwise can't hold a candle to real manga. I'm sure a lot of this is true. Hell, there really hasn't been an "Amerimanga" that has grabbed my attention. But I have to say, I am concerned with the prejudice attitude that anything Japanese-style made by a nonJapanese is a knockoff looking for a buck or something that's instantly not as good as a real Japanese creation.
There are a great deal of artists whose styles are strongly influenced by anime or they just happen to love anime. Are they all trying to cash in on the latest manga/those kids love them Yu-gi-oh cards craze? Usually, no. As someone who loves to draw anime style characters (and has been attempting to since the fourth grade), I would hate for myself or any other anime-style artist to be labeled as a copycat or sellout. Any thoughts on this? |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I'm with you on it, and the same pretty much goes for people who look at manwha with the same attitude. Art is a talent that doesn't stay within a certian race. Any artist, with enough practice, can learn and master a certian style. It just takes practice.
Amerimanga is at an extremly early stage, but I'm liking what we're getting so far. I haven't been able to read any of the series being released so far, so I have no idea how stories are going for them, but I was able to read a couple of Tokyopop's Rising stars. There's a lot of raw talent out there, and they are capable of the art. A lot haven't gotten the hang of screen tones and such, but that's understandable since screen tones are hard to come by here, as well as certian manga supplies *like paper. I have the hardest time finding non-import paper to ink my comics on that doesn't bleed the ink* I'm looking forward to see how this new nich in comics of america grows, and hope to contribute to it some day. |
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Jadress
Posts: 809 Location: Seattle. It purdy and nerdy! |
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Yeah, I think since a lot of anime/manga fans weren't fans of American stuff before, there is some reluctance.
On a side note, I saw your deviantart page.. I knew you had to have an art page somewhere, and I finally found it! Very cool stuff. I saw that you've read the Old Kingdom Trilogy books. You're my new best friend. |
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che_guevara
Posts: 102 Location: Near Boston |
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The main criticism is not that their artwork is a rip off. They can do whatever they want.
The problem is, a lot of the time, these authors and their companies actually call the works "manga". That's a blatant attempt to milk the market. And sure, there is a debate on what manga actually is, but the majority of the people still perceive "manga" as something created in Japan. That's why Amerimanga is not manga. That's why calling them manga is a marketing strategy. |
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littlegreenwolf
Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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See, that there is the problem. Most artist don't go with the idea that only a certian artstyle can be done by a certian group of people from around the world. Artist are calling the actual style manga. It's not always a blantant attempt to milk the market. What else are you supposed to call the style? The manga style is just a style of comics, like other genres have their styles in art, like for example, there's the impressionist style of painting. You think people require every impressionist artist to be French because the French started it? And Jadress:  heh, thanks. I'm actually extremly embarassed about most of my work. A perfectionist if you will. If I had the guts, I'd take out everything in my deviantart account I didn't think was that great... which would probably be all but 5 drawings.
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Kagemusha
 Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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I would define manga as a work of Japanese graphic fiction. There really isn't any one manga style; while most people would define the manga style as the Tezuka influenced style, just compare diffrent artists like CLAMP, Taiyo Matsumoto and Goseki Kojima together and the diffrences are apparent. I agree that it isn't a cheap marketing ploy by the artists; but it also really can't be called manga. There doesn't need to be the manga label on things that are influenced by manga, as Jill Scott (and Image artists to a degree) have shown. But if people want to call it amerimanga, I don't thing people should make a fuss about it. But from the comics I've read that try to really be manga, I haven't really found any that I like. I've read American comics that have manga influences though (obviously alot of the Image stuff). Actually, Love as a Foreign Language from Oni press is good, and I liked that one quite a bit. |
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che_guevara
Posts: 102 Location: Near Boston |
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I don't know what I can add to what Kagemusha said - but there are SO many variations of the artstyle, that the word "manga" has got to encompass every single category. I understand the word "manga" as Japanese comics, because really, that's what the word means. It means "flowing words" in Japanese, it does not necessarily designate a style. With 90% of the American fandom, manga means something created in Japan. Otherwise, EVERYTHING could be manga. This is not about artistic freedom. Someone can draw a comic that uses artstyle that is often used in manga, but that doesn't make it manga. Here's a simple analogy: No matter how much a Japanese movie tries to copy Hollywood techniques, it CANNOT be a Hollywood movie. |
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littlegreenwolf
Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I've tried explaining this in the past, but I'll try again.
Yes if you look at a large variety, everyone has a different style. But it's the similar elements that build up what people consider the manga artyle. The use of the screen tones, it being in black and white, the cinimatic style of the placement in the frames, the way they present the story. It's stuff like that. |
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Kagemusha
Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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Ok, I understand what you mean now. There are some elements most mangas have, but some manga artists do break conventions, like Masamune Shirow with his digital illustrations. Of course Natsuki Sumeragi has some of the most stunning artwork out there without the use of tones. And Kuroda Iou's work is totally unique. I might actually think it was a work of an American independent comicbook artist in some cases. There are other artists with unique styles (Shohei Manabe, Hiroaki Samura, etc.), but even they do tend to fall into those conventions.
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Iron Chef
 Posts: 487 Location: Seattle, WA |
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So if a Japanese artist creates a comic that isn't immediately redolent of stereotypical manga characteristics, what would you call it? What if Masamune Shirow just said the hell with it and did something that looked more like Disney than anything?
If you ask me, I think that the word manga should be used by the Japanese as a word that means "comics." Folks who speak English can just say "comics" or "graphic novel" or whatever phrase-o-the-day we decide is right. It's interesting how there's this stigma against certain words. "Oh, no, I don't read comics. I read MANGA." Seems kind of snobbish to me. |
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Haiseikoh 1973
 Posts: 1590 Location: Waiting for the Japanese 1000 Gunieas. |
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I think the only "americanmanga" that could respectfully qualify as Manga could just be Megatokyo. But then again, Golddiggers might be up there as well....
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Nani?
 Posts: 632 |
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Can AmeriManga be considered Manga?: Turn the question around. Do, we consider Blues or Jazz(originally American musical traditions) done in Europe or elsewhere Blues or Jazz. If done well yes. We also know there was a period where foriegn artists were getting a feel for the form and weren't up to the standards of the Americans they admired.
I think Amerimanga is at that same stage. As LittleGreenWolf said, "a lot of talent but". Also, like those European Jazz musicians, parts of our culture are going to creep in. For example, I'm working on a piece about a member of a specific American subculture and his Japanese counterpart working together. As a writer (another person is the artist), I have access to information a Japanese writer probably doesn't have and vice versa. I also have to make a special effort on the Japanese part, e-mailing him maps, pictures, definitions (this is a typical Shinto Shrine), translations etc. In the end will it be Manga? I say yes, in the sense that I am useing a "manga" style. Will it be somewhat different then what a Japanese writer would write? Yes. Will it be the same quality? Maybe, if I work hard and things "click". Will I get rich? Unlikely, but there is going to be an American who is going to be the first breakout success. That person will become very famous and respected. I'll be very happy for whomever they turn out to be. All the Best, Nani? |
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GATSU
Posts: 15672 |
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Jadress:
That's because it's usually true. There are fans who genuinely love the manga aesthetique, and copy it to show their respect and admiration for the style. But most of the time, it's the result of some publisher that hopes that people will notice their otherwise wretched comics by plastering someone with big eyes and neon-colored hair on one of their covers. littlegreenwolf: Manwha's really a cultural backlash in response to the popularity of manga. Koreans don't like their youth getting into Japanese pop culture, and for a long time issued a ban on imported Japanese goods, just to flip off the Japanese for their war crimes.(Hell, I remember asking a Korean store owner if some comic strip he was reading was manga, and he got offended.) Plus the manwha is probably taking advantage of Korea's unpopular-at least to the West-quota system in which domestically-produced media are given subsidies and preferential treatment which insures that they get better distribution and name recognition than the imported stuff. |
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Torka
Posts: 74 Location: somewhere far far away |
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"Lately I noticed a lot of people bashing Japanese-style comics by nonJapanese, saying that they are either trying to cash in on the style,"
"That's because it's usually true." Well, it's like this.... you have people who are anime/manga fans that have a passion for their hobby. So they try to draw that style because they admire it and they want to do it. Then you have people who bandwagon with trends. "Hey, this manga is popular with the kiddies, let's just draw these characters with big eyes and wierd hair. hopefully we'll get some $$$ form this." It's really two sides, the people who love it and the people who bandwagon with the trend. I don't really care if people bandwagon or not, What I care about is quality works. I wouldn't read a manga if it was crappy with a lame story, cheap art work, and crappy characters. I wouldn't read a mediocre excuse for a manga. But if they did take their time creating the plots and characters and made a great manga then good for them. I'll give them props! I support the artists who have the passion for the job and who do not cash in on manga. If they put enough effort into it them there's no need to complain but if it's crappy halfass work then that's another story... |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10471 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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You're calling manga an art-style? You of all people should know better. If it was just an art-style, anyone could immitate it. If it was just an art-style, Astroboy and Vagabond couldn't both be manga. As you pointed out below, there are various areas of common artistic ground between most manga, but it can't be said to be just an art-style. Defining manga can be hard. There's really two options 1) Comics from Japan. 2) A style of comic-book, originating in Japan and heavily influenced by Japanese culture. Those who are romanticly inclined (I'm not talking boy/girl romance) would probably prefer definition #2. The problem with #2, is that it can't be defined in any absolute terms. There's no single characteristic, or combination of characteristics that would make something manga... or not manga. If you accept #2, you have to accept that some non-japanese comics can be manga. But since manga is more than just an art-style, these comics would have to more than just look like manga. They'd have to read like manga. But how does manga read? Can you define that? I used to like definition #2, it appealed to my inner-romantic. But it's just not a definition that can be worked with, for practical reasons, I now feel definition #1 is more appropriate. I think that my belief in #2 was immature-wishful thinking. That being said, I don't want to completely abandon the idea of manga-style comics that are just as good as manga. I believe that an american artist/writer who has been influenced enough by manga can create something that is manga's equal, that may as well be manga except for the simple fact that it isn't from Japan. This artist would have created a legitimate manga-style comic book, just as good as manga, identical to manga, but not manga. If you want a precedent, look at artistic and musical definitions. The impressionists are defined as a group of artists from a specific period of history that created a certain style of art. It's accepted that, when modern artists create impressionist-style art, that its just that, "impressionist-style" not "impressionist." Same goes for classical music, baroque music and so on. While the general population calls classical music anything that sounds "classical" or like several other older styles of music, that is not the proper musical definition. classical music refers to music of a certain style and from a certain period, likewise for Classical Baroque (1600-1750). When a composer today creates a piece of music that mimicks Baroque, it is not Baroque, but rather "in the style of Baroque." So then, Fred Gallagher? Not a manga artist, but rather a legitimate artist creating a comic book in the style that came naturally to him, which, due to his being a manga fan, is very similar to manga. Ben Dunn? Same thing. Adam Warren? Likewise I have a lot of respect for these three artists, and I like their work a lot. But not of them create manga, and you know what? Not being manga artists doesn't make them inferior. Of course, there are other artists, more recently, that have started to draw "manga-style" because they're trying to cash in on the craze. And their publishers label their work "manga" for the same reason. While I respect Fred, Ben and Mr. Warren, I have no respect for the later group. -t |
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