Forum - View topicREVIEW: Romeo X Juliet Collection 1
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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from very first episodes, this anime dumbed down, vulgarized original play by replacing its events with a row of from-improbable-to-nonsensical plot turns, adding cheap, bad taste tricks like cross-dressing (with made-up lame excuse for that) or Shakespeare the Clown among other things...
just watch the first episode again scene by scene and ask yourself what and why actually happens and you will understand that any association of this with Shakespeare is an insult to name of this author... (no, i do not mean the flying horses, i mean quality of the plot...) and, i am no way "purist" per se... 2005' anime for "The Count of Monte Cristo" was work of high level plot-wise... there was no even close that much of screenplay nonsense as here, and dramatically it was at times even stronger than original novel (it is unique achievement on it own that made that anime series significant in its artistic meaning...) conceptually/dramatically, though, authors of this rxj series, of course, grasped the idea, it is no way "bad" anime... but if they really had to lower the bar like that (with scenarists being lazy to come up with plot-wise-smooth back-ups for their version of the play), then it would be fair to not call this "romeo x juliet"... |
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zaeris
Posts: 102 |
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I don't know if adding in a disclaimer makes your argument any valid. Essential you're complaining about changes which is mostly never define as good or bad but different. You did however mention it being nonsensical where it can be debatable however from my own watching everything looks plausible base on its own, including the setting and changes to the story. Was there anything far-fetched? I dare say no. You mention cross dressing but I found it reasonably well define in the series hence it coherent towards the current plot, is there some wrong/strange about people disguising themselves to avoid capture? The William character? well I think you should consider again what are you real complaints about. If its differences are you sure your not sounding like a purist? It is better if you read the reviews of someone who never read Shakespeare Romeo and Juliet to see if its nonsensical or not that would be looking at it objective point of view. The only thing is that I will agree with is that the title could be called anything really since there is a great deal of liberty however the ending and the theme are still intact. |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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cross-dressing is not justified by any means of the circumstances that are presented with this version of the play...
spoiler[no one could have an idea how juliet would look as child/teen, especially taking into consideration environment where she lived, so there was never point in making her wear boy's clothes... unless you are lazy scenarist that thought of "great idea" but could never back it up with more sane reason beyond this far-fetched, lame excuse to make juliet a cross-dresser... notice again that i am no purist (hence i was able to like Monte Christo, which does many things differently) and i would have no problem with cross-dressing if it was justified settings/plot-wise...] or, take another scene, where romeo notices spoiler[ that juliet is running away from the guard... it is obvious that in the crowdy trade city random thieves and robbers get chased by the guard like hundred times a day... but we have romeo all of sudden wanting to confront his own montague guards to save unknown criminal from the trial and punishment... so to actually go to "save" that random guy (which turned out to be juliet) romeo should either have this habit of being engaged in daily routine of sabotaging his own clan's efforts to keep citizens safe of criminals, or he had sudden loss of any reason/mind (mental illnesses often manifest themselves during teen years), or he was stuck in his head (but it was not shown in the anime)... or it was spring and he felt the absolute homoerotic urge to save a fragile-looking teen criminal... obviously, screenwriters were not supposing that the reasoning for what happens on the screen would be any of those listed variant... because they think that viewers never question the kind of nonsense they are fed with...] or a bit later juliet runs to spoiler[ the very edge of the destroyed bridge, while it was seen from like ten meters away that there is no need to run there... and then the super thick/bulky/heavy edge of the bridge crashes as if an elephant stepped on it...] or the whole love thing turning on... spoiler[romeo and juliet were supposed to have love "from the first sight"... yet they saw each other first time with no cheeks blushing or whatever (even though both of them saw each other faced then), but a bit later in the ball all of sudden they fell in lover with each other... also, it is highly unprobable that romeo and juliet would not recognize each other in the ball since they saw each other closely during first encounter...] this is what I mean by low class, cheap scenery (there is a lot more of the same kind nonsense) that is an insult in any near connotation to the quality of plot by Shakespeare... (and, again, Shakespeare-the-Clown personage could not make the project look any cheaper scenery-wise)... imagine a perfectly healthy person which then had his natural limbs crashed and "helped" with clutches instead... this is how this "plot" looks in comparison to original... if they wanted to change the scenery/settings/events, then they had to care to write actually thought-out plot, not this lame excuse for that we turned out to have... or do not call it "romeo and juliet"... Last edited by MaxSouth on Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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or in later episodes...
spoiler[juliet gets to the rose ball, where she starts to remember already being in this palace long time ago... and although she remembered nothing scary, she all of sudden runs out from the hall, conveniently (for scenarists) throwing away her face mask... she sits by fountain, but when romeo enters he asks her if she is all right and offers hand as if she fell down or something... why this nonsense?.. in the first episode juliet showed hating rich/noble people, while herself she has a female servant to care about her... and she also catches fever from learning that she is daughter of the killed Capulet family head, what is medically nonsensical... father of romeo manifests evil too blantly every other minute so it is surprising he Neo Verona was not wiped of citizens in these fourteen years... also, the families in general are blacker/whited too american way with "good"/"bad" labels... along with songs in english (i do not mean dub version) this makes me suppose that this anime is more suited for american market rather than japanese, to which would be more suited not so black or white personages from the original play... juliet comes to save her doctor and seeing him beaten near to death asks "are you allright?"... and then she kick-out prisons' door with one kick... is she superpowered chimera or something?.. in seventh episode, juliet's wig conveniently flies off her head, making her long hair uncurled so romeo would look like he kisses teen lady rather than teen boy...] |
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zaeris
Posts: 102 |
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This is going to take some time to sort. point one: spoiler[it is mention that Montague has always been searching for the Capulet daughter that he has been searching any female throughout his city and all area he control even arrest random people, yes he is that kind of person, I don't remember if there was a birth mark on those born in the house of Capulet. Whether people know what she look like or not they were searching. Being a boy is quite simplistic and yet its elusive to hide one identity. I don't know if not knowing what one looks like is a sure fire way to escape being capture avoiding death.... since in this case we look at the severeness of the consequences. In the end could you have guess that Juliet was masquerading as a male? one might argue that the effectiveness in cross dresser achieved its purpose and the severity of the consequences. If it satisfy the objective of hiding it is plausible.You trying to make it into a big deal what it is quite plausible] point two: spoiler[coincidence are part of the norm in a lot of story. When has two people meeting not been a coincidence in story telling. With that said the prince saving a random criminal is part of his personality, that much is known from his action as Romeo is benevolent unlike his father. The question that should be ask does his action seems out of characters? I'm thinking he is likely to save anyone in distress. This is a city where injustice occurs and Romeo understands better than anyone the situation and thieves or criminals in his city are not bad people per se. Its being clearly shown that he has a strong dislike for his father and is against his ideal of ruling.] point 3: spoiler[I don't remember that so I'm going to have to check that again.] Point 4: spoiler[I'm quite surprise... since most people believe that love at first sight is actually nonsensical or improbable to most people. building up a relationship from the start is more reasonable. I disagree with Shakespeare that teens have a habit of falling in love at first site. otherwise that is going to depend on your mileage. When you have a field of iris around and Juliet being pretty I believe anyone would fall for her ^^, EDIT: so I spent a bit of time watching the first episode, there was a series of sequence where our two protagonist ask what is love ^^, and Willy play about love where Juliet ponders the question again. I love how subtle and yet it is the start of which the characters consider their destine one. I do believe love is about mood and atmosphere,,, which are the two elements shown plus at the stage, Juliet wanted act more feminine for a change. Also I believe it was not love at first sight shown in the anime but it developed over a series of events given that Juliet mention previous that she might not see the person she fancy already conceding the fact that it might not bear. of course it happen afterward ^^.] the rest.... it seems more likely that you've placed a higher expectation on the story than anything else. However there is a lot of cheese since this is built more as a love story however I see nothing wrong with it if the writer and director choosing that angle to move the story. Of course I like my cheese and RxJ comes with lots of it ^^, I'm surprise you've kept watching even if your goal is to gather evidence but to keep watching with a negative opinion in mind would deter one's enjoyment. p.s if you've ever seen a bald cap in acting, it can hide quite a lot of hair ^^, animenewsnetwork.com/review/romeo-x-juliet/dvd-part-1 another review from ANN. In the end I respect your opinion if you dislike to series for what it is but in retrospect I've read both positive and negative review on the net. However once a person starts comparing it to the original 2-3 hr play It stops being objective and more subjective on the matter, the story and plot are essential different and the director/writer put into the story their own William characters, from any angle one could guess it is not trying to follow the story in a similar manner. The thought of a 24 episode anime was bound to have a lot of changes. Furthermore I've always been open about interpretation or re-creation of famous literature. If the title was alter being different I wonder if you would have the same opinion. P.s I love William characters ^^, its make the story more enjoyable within a tragedy. |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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or by the end of 10th episode...
spoiler[is clear that by the point of "balcony" scene that the drama was revolving not around romeo and juliet belonging to opposing clans, but mostly about juliet being made complete fool that made many citizens suffering and many of her supporters dying in vain... yet scenarists offer "balcony scene" as if the ongoing has something to do with clan thing... ] so far the story is nothing like Shakespeare's drama, the writing is poor, no one of them, obviously, is Shakespeare... or on 11th episode... spoiler[romeo releases his flying horse right in the hunting territory... so both his own horse and girl-horse would be hunted down and resold later?.. instead of going to jewellery traders romeo goes to the first random food seller to exchange his blue diamon/sapphire for small amount of food... though he could get for in enough money for them to live happily more than a year... ] EDIT: I will check your reply at some later time... Last edited by MaxSouth on Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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on point one...
spoiler[there are countless all kinds of girls in the city and there was nothing to tell if juliet was actually juliet or not... so there was no point to make her wear boy's clothes... it is looked even more ridiculous once the anime shows how juliet wanders in the city with her heraldic sword... scenarists made a farce of it...] on point two... spoiler[saving someone in distress is indeed in the character of romeo, you are right... but this is not just someone, this was sucpected thief or robber or maybe the killer... so i question romeo's sanity since his urge to save this random criminal could not be explained by his kindness... romeo has to lose his common sense at all to help unknown criminal... thanks to scenarists...] on point four... spoiler[love from the first sight does exist beyond shakespeare... thought it is rare, yes... however, there is no such thing as love from the second sight... yet scenarist invented it here...] "if you've ever seen a bald cap in acting, it can hide quite a lot of hair" yes, it can... i only question why all of sudden the wig was falling off juliet's head only to have her long hair uncurl right before she kisses with romeo... scenarists made unnatural coincidence of events only to make the scene look less "homoerotic"... as to positive/negative thing... as i said, the core drama of the play still exists in this anime despite lots of lame plot, so the anime is not bad at all... rather good, quite possibly... so I have nothing against watching it... i only against the fact it is called "romeo and juliet" with such quality of the plot... |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Everything else you've said in your posts in this thread contradicts the statements you are making here. You have spent most of this thread getting ridiculously nitpicky because you're apparently expecting this to be a straight-up rendition of the original play rather than a broad interpretation. (One only wonders what you must think of West Side Story. . . and no, that's not an invitation to elaborate.) You have no appreciation for what the story is trying to do for dramatic effects and are harping on impracticalities that aren't really that impractical. Honestly, I've been so disgusted by your nonsense that I stopped reading all of your posts after the first one. All-in-all, I find it quite odd that you're wasting so much time on an interpretation that you clearly don't like. (And just to be clear, I'm not saying any of this as a Mod. This is a straight forumite-to-forumite chastising.) |
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zaeris
Posts: 102 |
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Theron has spoken ^^, I will however add my own words to this... essential it gets back to my first post. If you told me you're not a purist I would still find that hard to believe. Although you have no issue watching the series but place a great deal of emphasis on quality or rather being critical on interpretation amongst other things but of course I don't see the flaws you mention standing out but rather I was captivated by what the anime has done. It does seems to be more a debate on aesthetic but also I don't see the original play as some wonderful thoughtful piece of writing that provoking or brings wisdom towards its generation. The theme itself is great but the story itself has been nothing less than comedy in my opinion. There's probably some interesting debate.. but there is nothing to gain from continuing further. Although point two is interesting to talk about. spoiler[I would believe his action are somewhat naivety itself combine with his kindness and righteousness as well. We saw a difference in equality and status between the rich and the poor. Romeo himself could have arrived at the conclusion that the citizen in his city are victims and more so victims of circumstance. One would need to question the peace in Neo Verona city.. but from what the anime has shown darkness seems to lurk more in the heart of nobility. A child rebelling against his father could be another reason. it is also noted in the anime Romeo takes outing on his dragon steed regularly and observe the city. His action could logical to say is based on his observation of the city and judge likely the criminal is innocent. It's clear the guards themselves are corrupted rather bringing peace towards the city but causing mayhem instead. Romeo probably understands this that there is no justice in his city. The next question is the red whirlwind. Being an infamous character and reputable among the citizen anyone could tell which side the red whirl is on. Thinking that the red whirl wind is murderous criminal or a thief is outright ludicrous. ] although with point 1 you don't seem to ask does doing so meets their objective? I would still say yes, I do question how objective your reasoning is. spoiler[From the very start in episode 1 it shown ordinary citizen being caught for just being female around the age of 15 based on arbitrary testimony could have outright been subject to lies reason attributed to revenge or greed, it can't be more substantial than that. Dressing as male would be more elusive. At some point in female clothing Juliet would had been capture regardless whether or not they thought she was Juliet or not. Also there is a misuse of power and authority shown. You are taking chances at an unjust and arbitrary system of justice.] now I'm tired lol, point 4: spoiler[I do believe this is not the case of love at first or second sight but something developed over a series highlight previously in my second post . The second encounter is when Juliet wore female cloths, the fountain and night sky might have been the addition to charming our main protagonist however I felt that they were interested in the other party previous as they sought the answer to what is love. Although by saying so, it could be love of first sight however in Romeo cases his encounter with the female Juliet is only at the fountain being their second. Could the change in lifestyle, the transformation of wearing female clothes made her more feminine and contrast to her tomboyish tough persona when she's dress in male clothing. Also there was a scene before that event where Juliet was dancing around at her new look as if yearning to be a girl at that point.It might be plausible to suggest that being more feminine at the time she could be easier entrance by Romeo's presence set a love at first sight however I'm consider it progression on Juliet parts and Romeo would be the case of first love. There would be nothing strange about a guy falling for a gorgeous female at the ball in both cases I believe would satisfy the story in a reasonable way. ] So that took a great amount of time in writing lol, I believe I'm not gaining anything from this but at the same time if your able to watch it and think positively at some point that would be rewarding enough for me. |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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zaeris: there is no need to convince me that this is a good anime... I said myself so in the very first post of this thread and repeated it later... we agree here...
theron: for me, your kindness as reviewer is known for a long time, so I never expected that you would understand level of strictness I have towards quality of scenarios/settings... yes, I am highly critical in this area for basically every anime series... for example, mind you, having blinking tvs pictured in "akira" anime irritates me as hell, since it is blatant disrespect to any level of intellect of viewers, which should, all of sudden, believe that in the "future" the displaying technology would stay as bad as it was in 1988 (the year when this anime premièred)... it is obvious laziness of scenarists/designers on "sci-fi" part that lead to this insult toward viewers, which worth more respect than that... with thought put in the work with such kind of details that anime could be more smooth, much more close to what perfectionism tries to achieve... however, even with such wrongs "akira" is still one of the greatest anime ever created... so there is no contradiction between all of my critique of r&j plot (I would not bother to detail all of improbable/ridiculous plot events of later episodes; there are already enough of examples) and my consistent conclusion that overall this anime is good... if you are so "disgusted" to read concrete, scene-by-scene critique of the plot of this series, then you might want to ask youself why this anime only got "B" for "story" in this review (hint: no, it is not because of spoiler[romeo in mines] episodes)... i am surprised that I have to explain that things are not black or white... and i'm not glad at all that attempts to be objective can not fit to some other readers' polar way of thinking... and no, i am no way "purist" since I think this anime is good... though it should not be named "romeo and juliet" due to difference of plot quality, comparing to original play... I would not have such objection with 2005 rendition of Monte Christo, if that anime would be called exactly as original writing, since that anime has more smooth, thought-out plot (though with my critique still)... and, that version was not "pure" adaptation, either... Last edited by MaxSouth on Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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That is, practically by definition, being a purist. |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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do you think that content of the the play and quality of plot (no matter what the essence of it in terms of events and settings) are the same thing?..
otherwise, there is no way to conclude that i am "purist"... i might be pedantic and tend to require perfectionism, but these are totally different things from "purism" in relation to adaptations of classics... if the plot is of high quality, then i have nothing against it no matter how much it is changed (besides monte christo, there is, for example, saiyuki, which is almost nothing like original "journey to the west", yet manga's plot is consistent enough to draw much less criticism on this part, comparing to this "r&j")... |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Thinking that the plot quality has to be just as good as the original's to be worthy of the title is still being a purist.
But that's really just a matter of semantics. The bigger point is that I utterly disagree with your assessment that the "plot quality" (as you put it) is all that much worse. The plot of the original source material is actually pretty basic and straightforward, which is what has allowed it to be adapted in so many different ways, and so freely cross cultural boundaries, over the course of centuries. The plot of this series fully retains that and also expands upon it by putting some extra dynamics into the course of events (most particularly the uneven balance of power between the Montagues and the Capulets) which I think give the story an extra kick. I'll agree that the business with Escalus went too far, but that was a necessary addition to make things work in an anime series format. Everything else made sense and this series explained and justified itself better than most; characters actually had detailed motivations, no one behaved improbably illogically, and events happened in an appropriately theatrical fashion - and don't underrate the value of that last point. If some things seemed a little too contrived, just consider that promoting a theatrical feel for a story based on a play is more an homage to the source material. |
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zaeris
Posts: 102 |
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Beside your first sentence which I won't dwell on further... I agree with your other statement somewhat if you just want people to acknowledge the name of this series could be anything besides Romeo and Juliet however I feel that you're holding on to a 400 year old play with greater esteem than it should be rewarded pertaining a lovers suicide that came out meaningless. If anything else I believe this version of RxJ resonates better with the younger demographic of today's youth vs the older generation who saw Shakespeare differently in the past. Otherwise I do see the title being fit for the story of star cross lover whose fate is cloudy by tragedy between an ongoing family feud. EDIT: final words, My primary objective is that I disagree with you're generalization that the plot or certain scenes are nonsensical. Convincing the anime is good would had been secondary to me but mostly I certainly didn't agree with your reasoning hence my involvement in this thread. |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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key, zaeris: as I said from the very first post, the drama/story is grasped by this anime... that is why I consider it good even though I harshly criticize details of the plot... by the way, i do not criticize the story in big scale... the fact that it differs from the plays is meaningless in terms of art per se...
i do not criticise major reasonings of heroes of this anime... and i do not even criticise the whole tree thing spoiler[this is accepted setting of this fantasy world... it does not raise *clearly* "improbable event" flag contrary to, for example, wedding of major mutiny supporters right in the middle of revolution... nothing like that happened in any of known revolutions, this is totally insane/lame move by lazy scenarists to make julient want more to live happily with romeo, to make viewers to sympathize with her, to make filler... notice that i do not criticize the intent per se, i criticize the way scenarists tried to approach their goals with this plot event...] and i do know very well that most people do not stumble over every stretched plot event like myself... i am very strict on details, so I would like to see everything to be thought out the most "believable", the least far-fetched way... obviously some anime better than others, it should not be strange or surprising that there has to be someone like me with highly critical, but yet *trying* to objective in whole picture (I never call an anime "crap" or as whole "bad", speaking about concrete things only) attitude... |
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