Forum - View topicEnough is enough.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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There are a few attitudes running rampant on this message board that I feel are in dire need of correction and elimination.
It seems like over half the threads are discussing what show "rips off" another show. Everything is accused of being unoriginal and cliched, and then that standpoint is attacked with people saying "No it isn't!" and not really backing it up (not that the original statements were backed up with anything in the first place). There is a really, really annoying trend for anime fans to sit around and compare everything to everything else and dismiss everything as "show X combined with show Y". I have yet to actually read a review or comment where these statements are accurate and seem like the author actually put thought behind them. Yes, it's true, many, many anime series are amalgams of other popular shows. Usually, fans miss the mark on what exactly makes it similar to those shows or they compare it to the wrong shows. For example, in the Cowboy Bebop - Noir thread. Plenty of people (myself included) don't see any reasonable comparisons between the two series. Nobody in that thread has posted any reasonable comparison or any similarities, but they insist that the shows share components. I, and a few others, have pointed out (with reasoning) why there are really no similarities. If you're going to argue a point, back it up. With proof. Logic. Prove you thought about something before you said it. You people seem to crave intelligent discussion, and yet you don't seem to understand exactly what makes a discussion intelligent. I could sit here and say that "Chobits is just Mahoromatic and Kodomo no Omocha multiplied, divided by Hanaukyo Maid Tai and then mixed in with Cowboy Bebop!". If you think about it, Chobits shares something in common with one of those series. Mahoromatic also has a robot girl in it. That's where the similarities end. The whole "divided by and mixed in" phrasing doesn't make an ounce of sense if you stop and think about it for a second. "Divided by"? How can you "divide" a show by another show? You can't do it and garbage like that should be left out of your post if you're actually trying to make a serious point. If show X has a guy with wings in it and show Y does too, do not say that show X is just show Y with show Z (a show that has a girl with super powers, just like show X) added in. Series will share popular components. All forms of mdia share components; archetypes, characters, plotlines, storylines, everything; they have to. There's only so much to go around. If you want something COMPLETELY original, you SHOULD NOT WATCH ANIME. I repeat: if you are searching for originality, do not watch anime. Reasonably, you shouldn't watch anything except experimental animation, and even then, you can make the claim that everyone just rips off Oskar Fischinger. Even something like Spirited Away, if you're artificially jaded enough and sit through everything searching for components that have existed before in some other media (a mindless and illogical task, like watching for birds to fly past and then complaining about it as though that isn't how it should be), will seem trite and cliched, since everything that happens in Spirited Away can most certainly be found in another medium. Yet, most of you wouldn't say that Spirited Away is just a ripoff of something else, right? Please, please, please, think about what you write before you write it. If someone asks you what a show is like, do not say "This is like show X.. ON CRACK!" That means nothing. Having never taken crack myself, I can't say exactly what Marmalade Boy would be like on crack, but I suspect it would involve Yuu being strung out, deathly thin, begging people for money so he could buy another gram to get through the day. It would almost certainly not resemble Kodomo no Omocha in any way. The whole "This show is like show X on drug Y!" makes no sense and is not a valid way to describe a show. It isn't funny or clever anymore (never really was), either, so just stop using it, please. Especially if you're trying to make a valid argument about something. And, if a serious discussion is occurring, don't interject with some lame jokey bullcrap statement that's intended to be the "hilarious" devil's advocate or extreme opinion. It adds nothing to the argument whatsoever and usually just derails whatever's being discussed. Yes, OK, some people think Eva is god's gift to meaningful anime. Don't point it out in an extreme fashion every time there's a eva thread just to make sure people know how ridiculous the extreme opinion is. We know. Really. We do. Alright, I'm going to end this rant here. Flame away if you must, but please think about what I've written. -Zac |
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Slim Shinji
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 263 |
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Geez Zac, you're saying we can't even make light of these debacles??? I think if EVERYBODY just took a step back and thought about how vehemently you all are arguing about a cartoon you might realize how silly this whole thing is. |
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FallenAngelFish
 Posts: 17 |
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Nope, No flaming from me. I agree completely. Well said too, thank you.
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garry
Former ANN Editor
 Posts: 120 |
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I got burned out on fandom right after I graduated high school, real bad. I didn't want to watch, read or think about anime. For the most part, I still don't.
So I don't think about anime any more. I like what I like and make lame jokes about the stuff I don't, like every other pop culture consumer of my generation. The "opinions" I have about different anime are just knee-jerk ideas I have to amuse myself. I respect you, Zac. You take your hobby seriously, and that's cool. That's why you're working your way up the anime journalistic ladder. To me, though, it's just a bunch of cartoons. Some good, some bad. I got burned out and I never came back, it happens all the time. That's why I do updates an hour a day for food money. But realize something. THESE ARE FANS YOU'RE DEALING WITH. The "Y rips off X" argument is the oldest thing in history. It's the standby argument when you want to prove someone wrong, and it works for everything from religion to lifting. Every time I get into a room full of fans of anything, I encounter the ripoff argument. Every time. This isn't a trend, it's the condition of the species. It's how fans pass the time. As long as I've been here you've been giving lectures on how bad and annoying fans can be, and it surprises me you haven't been running into this since the time you first talked to someone else who liked Japanese cartoons. Fandom won't change. All the jeremiads in the world can't do that. I got tired of fandom pretty bad three years ago, and decided to get out, or lighten up, or whatever you want to call it. But if you choose to stay in, you've got to realize the kind of people you're dealing with. |
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Ataru
 Posts: 2329 Location: Missouri (Strikeman) |
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When I set down to watch a series/OVA/Movie, I do it with not thinking "Oh this a rip of X anime with a hint of Y and Z." The last couple of days I have notice alot of anime series where thevies and bounty hunters are either stars or the main them, "fanboys" are quick to point out it a rip of Lupin or Cowboy Bebop and that pretty said. I haven't seen much of Noir (outside of the 1st ep of that came with Newtype) so I can't pass sentance on yet.
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billslates
Posts: 31 Location: Miami, FL |
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In my opinion is only really the bad shows that get that type of treatment, because most of the time, they ARE unoriginal AND uncliched. Obviously the way the plot veers can make it original(though it has to be dramatic ALA Evangellion, which some people thought of as a mecha anime in the beginning until later on, w00t), but if that doesn't become that much original, than it is cliche.
These things aren't just in anime alone. They're in almost every medium. How much fantasy fans might have compared a work to Lord of the Rings. Some positive reviews are positive because they compare it to Lord of the Rings! About the fandom issue. I find that you don't have to be some hyped up junkie in order to be an anime fan. Far from it. That's what the term "fanboy", and more recently "fangirl", have been applied to those people. I prefer to call them ignorant fans. You don't have to snub everyone and show the world what you like in order to enjoy it. I don't consider myself an anime fan, more of a manga one, and i'm not as estatic-y as most, but in the end I love manga a lot more than a lot of people. But that's for another discussion. Ta ta! |
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SSJ4_Washu
Posts: 8 Location: Colorado |
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I totally agree with you Zac. People just don't present any evidence when they want to present a point. It can sometimes be like the chatrooms where people just start talking about random junk. But I dont't entiry agree that all anime is just a copy. I mean sure there are similarities, but i think thats all they are minor similarities. I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, but every once in a while something really original does come out. Take Mononoke Hime for example. I know i haven't seen any movies that had the relationship between nature and humanity that Mononoke Hime had.
Anything i had seen before had them just pitted against each other, but this movie showed more of them uniting at the end. A mean sure the forest spirit does die, but then everyone is united. Well thats just my 2 cents. |
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Cassandra
 Posts: 1356 Location: Birdsboro, PA |
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I just chalk those arguments up to the fact that on most anime message boards, the average age of the posters is like 14. And I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but 14 year olds (or kids in general) just don't know how to make a point and back it up. They think "DBZ sux!" is an argument.
Half the time I just check my brain at the login prompt and pick it back up when I logout. |
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
 Posts: 3794 Location: Montreal |
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Honestly Zac, I think you're going too far. As usual, you tend to take such an extreme stance on fanboy behavior that you become just as extremist as those very fanboys you abhor.
No, I'm not dimissing anything by saying "it's kinda like show X combined with show Y", I'm just using the time-honored tradition of COMPARISON. If someone wants to know what a certain show is like, doesn't it make sense to describe it using reference points that this person will understand? Or do you mean to say we should never use ANY comparison between two shows? So what if I say that Kodocha is like Marmalade Boy on crack? It's a reasonably accurate metaphor to describe one show relative to the other. DESCRIBE, not dimiss or demean or criticize. I don't need to "prove" such comparisons, because the point of using a comparison in the first place is to quickly present a relationship of similarity between two subjects. I could have said "show X is like show Y because it has qualities A, B, C and D" (which uses both comparison an enumeration) and then I could even have backed each of the enumerated qualities with examples from the show. But if I wanted to do that, I would simply have written a lengthy analysis on the qualities of the anime, I wouldn't have needed a comparison. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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"Geez Zac, you're saying we can't even make light of these debacles???
I think if EVERYBODY just took a step back and thought about how vehemently you all are arguing about a cartoon you might realize how silly this whole thing is." Maybe if what anyone said was funny. Usually it's same 3 or 4 lame old recycled jokes that we've seen here a million times before. I make jokes all the time. Yeah, I take anime seriously, because I have to. It's my freakin' job to. I joke around about it and make fun of it all the time. Aside from Byronius and Sakechan, nobody on this board is funny. If you're gonna make light of the argument, fine, go ahead, but it better be good. Know what I'm saying? And, for the record, animated film is just as legit as live-action and deserves to be argued about. Don't dismiss the art form just because you can attach a stigmatized label to it like "cartoon". I really have a passionate dislike for fandom, mostly because of how it's come along the last few years, but it doesn't leak into my enjoyment of it anymore. Used to. I got over that. I like to call it "growing up", being mature enough to enjoy something while detaching it from whatever social stigma it may have. Given the fact that they're now teaching courses on anime at NYU and almost every major college in the country, I think recognition academia is pretty much all you need to legitamize something and remove it from the "dismiss it, it's a cartoon" realm, don't you? That doesn't mean we can't make fun of it, but don't tell us not to discuss it. "So what if I say that Kodocha is like Marmalade Boy on crack? It's a reasonably accurate metaphor to describe one show relative to the other. DESCRIBE, not dimiss or demean or criticize." I didn't say that description demeaned or criticized the show you're describing. I said it was lame, overused, and when you thought about it for two seconds, completely meaningless. Most people say that to get a laugh. My contention is that it isn't funny and doesn't say anything at all about anything except that you heard someone else say it and are now trying to be funny yourself. How exactly is it an "accurate" metaphor? Think about it. Saying something is "on crack". What does that even mean? I also didn't say that comparing shows is bad, I was talking about HOW people compare shows. I could tell you that Evangelion is a little like Gundam, since it has giant robots in it (OK, not robots, yadda yadda, you get my point.) It's also a little like Key The Metal Idol, because it deals with heavy issues of self-preservation and psychological breakdown. These are accurate, helpful comparisons that are backed up with my opinion based on what I saw. It is NOT "EVA Is just a Gundam and Key ripoff!" or "Eva is like Gundam, ON CRACK! Hahahaha! I'm so clever!". Okay? Get what I'm saying now? The previous two statements are annoying and do nothing at all except make you look like a total idiot. Unfortunately, I only see people doing the latter, and not the former, and that upsets me. I realize I'm dealing with fans. I'm used to their behavior. I'm referring to the arguments I see on this board and pointing out obnoxious trends that piss me (and many others) off. That's it. -Zac Last edited by Zac on Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Vicious
 Posts: 97 |
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My personal pet peeve is the Trigun/Outlaw Star/Bebop association. They've all got guns and they all either have a wild west style name or semi wild west setting, but the style of the shows are all different. I like all three, but...they just aren't really alike like everyone says they are.
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
Posts: 3794 Location: Montreal |
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You have seen both Marmalade Boy and Kodocha right? I happen to find that Kodocha is a lot like Marmalade Boy but with insanity and hyperactivity cranked up one notch. Hence the metaphor of crack/speed/drug. Sure, "like Marmalade Boy on crack!" is a little too "clever" and catch-phrase-y, but that doesn't invalidate it. granted, crack may not describe 100% of the difference between Kodocha and MB, but let's not be too anal-retentive here. I, for one, got the gist of it. |
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Slim Shinji
Past ANN Contributor
Posts: 263 |
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I don't. Animation is the most amazing art form on the planet in my opinion. It's more than deserving of serious scholarship and study. It's NOT deserving of getting angry about other people's opinions on the matter, no matter how poorly-formed they may be. I'm not pointing a finger at Zac specifically here, I'm saying this to anyone who's ever got bent out of shape about a "cartoon". You can substitute "fine art" for "cartoon" if it makes you feel better. It's not worth getting in a fight over the works of Michelangleo any moreso than the works of Walt Disney or Shinichiro Watanabe. ...and that's all I got to say 'bout that! |
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Delthayre
 Posts: 414 Location: One of the good United States |
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I do believe that Zac is correct regarding the excess of comparisons and accusations of derivativeness. It is a simple fact that most things, with enough thought, could be seen as simple amalgamations of previous works. Even if this is true, pointing it out is seldom useful or productive.
In the case of titles meant for entertainment, almost any degree of derivativeness is harmless so long as the show is entertaining. In the case of more thought provoking and philosophical titles, being derivative can often add a new dimension to the metaphysical subtext (assuming one exists) of a series. Being derivative should only be considered a severe flaw when the derivation is complete with no new perspectives or material. Being derivative is also a problem if the derivative material is done poorly. In the final analysis, as in most situations, it is best not to worry about it too much. So long as the viewer is satisfied, the goal (I will admit to stretching the sense of the word) of the title is accomplished and there need not be any furor about it. |
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Hotaru's Sister
 Posts: 102 Location: NYC |
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I've been read both Marmalade Boy and Kodacha regularly since they were released in the US. While you can make comparisons between the two in terms of some of the relationships, but I don't think the similarities go much further than that. Marmalade Boy is a sappy high school drama with some comedy, while Kodacha, in my mind, is a "zany" comedy with some romance/drama mixed in. If I had only read Marmalade Boy and someone explained to me that Kodacha was "Marmalade Boy on crack," I'd probably never check it out. That description leaves me with a negative impression, because I can't see Marmalade Boy done in a way that could be deemed "on crack." That said, Zac isn't saying you can't compare shows. In fact it's a very good way of explaining a shows feeling or style. But broad generalizations and "on crack" comments don't do any good. Not just because it's cliché, but because it says nothing about the show. If you're gonna compare something, do it well. Use more detailed explanations of how they're similar. In short, I agree with Zac. |
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