Forum - View topicBrain Diving - Youth Brigade: Clearing up the Tokyo Youth Ordinance Bill
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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I'm pretty sure Batman and Robin shared a bed (and parents were upset!), though I can't remember if it was before or after the CCA. Anyway, read up on the Comics Code. This is essentially what Japanese publishers and mangaka are afraid of: a Japanese version of the comics code. |
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torontoanimemeetup
Posts: 24 |
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Where the bloody hell did I say I never seen a gay comic book character? Yes I knew the X-Men character NorthStar, Wildstorm Apollo and Midnighter... Those are GAY characters... I was answering question to rape and homosexual content, not homosexual characters. Those are 2 very different things.
I am a big X-Men reader so maybe you like to point out to me what issue NorthStar had a hot Sexy love making scene with another MALE X-Men? I don't read the The Authority, but I don't think Apollo and Midnighter ever had a Steamy hot and wild loving making panel that jump and say " Buy This Issue ". There is nothing wrong with GAY characters, there is nothing wrong with GAY comic/Manga, there is nothing wrong with GAY Anime... I would never BUY Anything that is GAY though. I simply not interested in these theme... Now if you or anyone wants to make a Gay comic that show 2 guys having sex that's fine too... Just put a sticker on it and say you have to be 18+ to buy it, but don't sale it to my 13 years old niece. Do you think it's ok for me to show a Gay adult movie to your 10 years old niece or nephew? I am beginning to understand why Ruh had supporter like you. |
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torontoanimemeetup
Posts: 24 |
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Like I said the Bill is very unclear, and how would someone like Ruh ever know about the extend of the Bill? He and everyone just write what they think... Ruh tried to tells someone what he think are the FACTS but the truth is they're his opinions, a very BIAS and uneducated opinions at best. If the Bill reach out and starts changing Mainstream manga like Naruto and One Piece then I would be pissed as HELL. Of course there is nothing sexual about Naruto and One Piece so I shouldn't have nothing to worry about.
and they're called adults comics or Independent Comics. As for Marvel and DC, their comics are focus on Super Heroes with Super Powers that save the world and so on.. Their story isn't about some girl getting raped and being showed she was getting raped. That's not what they do at Marvel and DC. Their story may involve a unknown character getting Raped but that is just the story as long as she is not depicted as being raped. The Comics Code would not allow that in the first place.
That happened in Naruto all the time... We'll see if the bill affect Naruto...
That's the problem... you're getting your source from someone like Ruh and a translated source. Depicts means you are actually describing what is happening as in what you are seeing. If a girl say she was raped, that is not depiction, if they author show the girls was being raped then that is Depiction.
Last edited by torontoanimemeetup on Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:42 am; edited 2 times in total |
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torontoanimemeetup
Posts: 24 |
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I grew up reading comics in the early 90's, you can't have swearing or you can't show too much blood or even cutting someone head off, but I can understand why the Comics Code was there in the first place. Reading comics should be about the story and characters... |
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torontoanimemeetup
Posts: 24 |
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Ruh is a bad writer... A good write know how to differential facts from opinion. Ruh doesn't understand that. You won't find me working as a professional writer because I am not a writer. Last edited by torontoanimemeetup on Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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einhorn303
Posts: 1180 |
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I'm very glad that you, Mr. torontoanimemeetup, don't have the authority to decide what comic and anime storylines are made. Because from my perspective, you clearly have taste incompatible with my own.
This is an important lesson to learn: "Not all people enjoy the same things, or the same kinds of stories." You're talking about what you want made, but that's far from an objective truth about that's good. It's all subjective.
Your problem here is assuming that anything that features gay characters is pornographic, instead of say, characters just normally living their lives. Like "Circles" or "Frater Mine" come to mind. Just imagine if someone said the same stuff in your post except applied to straight characters. It would look completely absurd and close-minded: "There is nothing wrong with STRAIGHT characters, there is nothing wrong with STRAIGHT comic/Manga, there is nothing wrong with STRAIGHT Anime... I would never BUY Anything that is STRAIGHT though. I simply not interested in these theme... Now if you or anyone wants to make a Straight comic that show a guy and a girl having sex that's fine too... Just put a sticker on it and say you have to be 18+ to buy it, but don't sale it to my 13 years old niece. " |
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BrianRuh
Posts: 162 Location: West Lafayette, IN, USA |
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I just wanted to drop in and say congratulations. Since I started writing the column earlier this year, you're the first commenter who has taken such offense at something I wrote. And you've even backed up your unsubstantiated assertions with personal attacks! You don't know how much this means to me. |
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robcomet1
Posts: 4 Location: Rockford, IL |
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That is pretty obvious. We all agree you are not a professional writer.
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Mr Big200
Posts: 47 |
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I've been following this and also reading comments on the the forum and I just thought to stay out of this but after seeing torontoanimemeetup here and his crazy post I have to say one thing
hey torontoanimemeetup I understand your worried about a ten year old seeing hentai or an Ecchi anime or anything violent in an anime that's good but here's the thing you really need to undertand its not the Government's job to worry about what your kid watches reads or plays that my dear friend is the parent's job if you don't like what your kid sees turn it off, is it that hard for you to protect your child that you need the Government's help? |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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The Comics Code more or less castrated the US comic industry. It destroyed comics targetted at older teenagers, adults, oh and women. It removed pretty much anything other than squeeky clean superhero stories and Archie comics from stores. No more horror stories, no more romance comics. Compared to European and Japanese comics, American comics have a developmental disorder and are struggling to catch up. It's one of the reasons why manga was able to get so big so suddenly. It filled a gap. Maybe you like superhero comics and don't care about much else. That's fine. You should enjoy the comics you like. However, keep in mind that tastes vary and other people may like other types of comics. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber
Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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Once again, you are using straw men. This bill isn't focused on the hardcore. Hardcore sex of any sort is already going to be restricted.
How is ANYONE supposed to know about this bill aside from reading translations of it and/or translated it themselves? How did you come to YOUR opinions on the bill? Ruh read translations of the bill from someone he respects, and came to his opinions based on that. That's pretty much all anyone can do. I'd say that, based on the translations I've seen, he is correct. You attack him for his opinion, but you haven't shown me any alternate translations that prove him wrong. And I already pointed out that there is sexual stuff in Naruto and One Piece. Not hardcore sexual stuff, but as I've been trying to convince you, this bill isn't focused on hardcore stuff. Hardcore stuff is ALREADY restricted.
Wait, what? Comics Code? That doesn't even apply to Marvel Comics anymore, and is nothing like it used to be anyways. And while actually showing someone being raped in any graphic detail isn't going to happen in a lot of comics, don't act like rape is never used as a MAJOR plot point. The rape and eventual murder of spoiler[Sue Dibny] was a big part of Identity Crisis.
I imagine it probably won't affect them simply because the people enforcing the bill won't want to take on such big name series. But that doesn't matter, if series that have identical content but less of a fanbase are restricted, how is that fair? Now, I'm doing some speculating here of course, I can't predict for sure how people will enforce the bill, but if the bill is written in such a way that it can potentially be used to restrict Naruto/One Piece, I think that is a bad thing.
And I'll ask again... where are you getting your info? If you have a different translation, share it. And if you're questioning the accuracy of the translation, why bother giving a definition of depict? Without knowing what the precise meaning of the original Japanese word is, I can't say for sure just how much detail is needed for it to apply. But I find it ironic that you somewhat contradict your own definition. If a girl talks about a time she was raped, she is pretty much "representing or characterizing in words", at least if she includes any details about the circumstances of the time. |
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Greboruri
Posts: 383 Location: QBN, NSW, Australia |
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Either way I must say what he wrote in the column was the most concise and clear view of the bill I have read so far, including Dan Kanemitsu's stuff, which has been really helpful. |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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First off, I haven't come across much manga or anime with the rape scenarios discussed in here.
The other thing is the discussion about mainstream American comics today. The Comics Code is currently dead. Actually, there has been a lot of debate in recent years about the sharp turn in misogynistic attitudes found in modern superhero comics. I'm a pretty solid Alan Moore fan, but there's a disturbing trend of his female characters getting humiliated or violated at least in every title he's been involved with, and not always to make some sort of social commentary. I've seen a ton of objectionably misogynistic stories from Mark Millar, Frank Miller and J Michael Stracyznski, a lot of them working in conjunction with Joe Quesada's current creative direction with Marvel. Gwen Stacy (she's now "revealed"/retconned to have been a bit of a slut before she died, and gave birth to the original Green Goblin's children--WILLINGLY) and Mary Jane Watson have been creatively humiliated, beaten (Peter Parker once hit Mary Jane--with fists--in a fit of angst during the clone saga) and thrown around in the past 10 years. Cannibalism has been found in several Marvel and DC superhero stories. They've definitely been going "more hardcore" since the late 90s, to service their aging fanbase (hey, hey, just like the otaku conundrum). I don't know what Torontoanimemeetup is talking about when he says DC and Marvel are still pretty "clean." Maybe if you're reading reprints of older comics, but the current stuff is fairly risque at times. Definitely very male oriented, and they've turned a lot of their superheroes into anti-heroes (see above). In fact, "Torontoanimemeetup", if you DO live in Toronto, you should go to the Beguiling and talk to Chris there. He'll tell you as a store manager that when parents come in to ask what to buy he's much more likely to recommend a kid's manga like One Piece or Naruto than current Marvel and DC comics, which are increasingly way too extreme for kids. That said, the American comics scene is more creatively diverse now that you don't need to read Marvel and DC anymore (who basically service the American versions of comics 'otaku' now). There are tons of great titles coming from companies like Dark Horse, Fantagraphics, Drawn and Quarterly, Top Shelf. Archie is still doing their kid friendly thing. This creative renaissance would not have happened if the Comics Code were still in place. One last thing about this quote:
http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/ http://everything2.com/title/The+treatment+of+female+characters+in+Superhero+comic+books
Just had to show examples. And these aren't "unknown" characters or mere plot points as TAM said. People who say that typical manga and anime are way more extreme than Marvel and DC obviously haven't really read many of their comics. |
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Mushi-Man
Posts: 1537 Location: KCMO |
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So you're ok with homosexual characters, just not homosexuals having sex/kiss/getting married/anything of an intimate value? I'm pretty sure without "homosexual content" then the characters wouldn't really be homosexuals. That would be like me saying "blank is gay... But he doesn't have sexual relationships with men, or does anything to acknowledge the fact that he's gay besides just mentioning it off handed."
No, but it's perfectly fine to show a ten year old a movie about a gay person where they actually express the fact that they are gay. Guess what, a character can be gay and have an actual relationship without it being considered "adult". There's no reason I wouldn't show a ten year old a movie like The Bird Cage, which portrays a homosexual relationship in a mature and appropriate manner.
Haha so the Comic's Code is there to encourage a focus on the story... by limiting what can be told in a story. the logic here is just amazing. torontoanimemeetup, you my fair sir, have proven yourself again and again to be one of the most narrow minded people I have ever had the pleasure of communicating with, congrats. At this point I think it's fair to say that you might be a troll and as such don't really deserve my attention, but that fact remains to be seen. |
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torontoanimemeetup
Posts: 24 |
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I couldn't agree more... We're all different people, so each one of us have different taste. Remember I grew up reading X-Men, Spider-Man, Batman and Superman. These are all children comics, anyone can walk in with 3 bucks and walk out with them in your hands. There are values reading these comics because they're fun and enjoyable. I don't know if you read American comics, if you do then you are affected by the Comics Code for the last 50 years or so. The comics code wasn't created to destroy the comic book industry it was created to protect children from reading what they called back in those days "Satan Comics". Pretty much very artists and creator of that time were angry at the Comics Code, but guess what they (Artist, creators) lost and life goes on. What kind of comics/manga do you read?
That's fine. If gay reader don't want to buy straight comics, which is probably 99% of the US market. If those comics doesn't interests them why should they buy them. No I never said gay character is or related to pornographic. Being gay and pornographic are two very different thing. If you made a gay comic WITHOUT sexual activities and it's just about the gay couple living their life and dealing with all the everyday problems, I still wouldn't buy it but I would totally support it. There's NO NEED for a sticker on it that say you have to be 18+ to buy this comic. But if there's sexual contents gay or straight comics, yes than you would have to be 18+ to buy.
If someone wants to make a Straight comics? LOL... about 99% of the US market are Straight comics. Marvel and DC published Superheroes comics (Straight Comics), the American Comic Code would NEVER ALLOW showing sexual activities between a guy and a girl. Second, if a Independent Comic published such comics and I would ask someone to put a sticker on it and say you have to be 18+ to buy this comic book because there are sexual materials involved. The problem with your response is that you have this sensation about Gay in comic books as if they're the Majority in the market place... They're not. How many movie about Gay do you know in the theaters right now? There probably isn't any.. The only gay movie we ever talk about was Broke Back Mountain. I have nothing against gays, but I would never buy anything or see anything that is GAY involved. Let me ask you this, is Batman, Superman, Spider-man, or any of the lead cast of the X-men are Gays? How about any of the One Piece, Naruto or Bleach character gay... and I am talking about principle cast not supportive cast. One Piece have lots of gay characters, like Number 2 and Evanko and this cross dressing gang, but they're not part of the original and principle cast. So tell me ain't these creators completely absurd and close-minded? Here is the top selling Manga in Japan for 2010... animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-11-30/top-selling-manga-in-japan-by-series/2010 How many of them are gay or involve a 7 years old girl getting raped? |
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