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Forum - View topicThis Week in Anime - Is There a Double-Standard for Same-Sex Relationships in Anime?
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MesousaGaby
 Posts: 71 |
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Watch Kanamemo sometime, BTW, that also has a legit lesbian relationship with off-screen implied sex (twice), yet somehow, in one episode, the have the main character say something along the lines of "They're very close.", then cue a flashback of said couple kissing, and suddenly she says "Not that close!"
Like...bruh...that really is what happens, making it seem like she's denying them being a couple or something. |
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TsukasaElkKite
 Posts: 4030 |
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Of course there's a double standard. LGBTQ+ characters in manga are most often portrayed in tragic roles and for lesbian couples, especially in manga set in high schools, they're told that being a couple is "just a phase" and they'll grow out of it once they graduate and go on to marry men.
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Minos_Kurumada
Posts: 1190 |
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I think its quite obvious there is a double standard, but, some times I wonder if its the result of writers not wanting to deal with fujoshi.
The Tokyo Ghoul:re situation comes to mind. It also comes to mind just how bad the average anime writes romance (its nowhere close as how terrible USA writers manage romance though), so, for many people they are just friends, simply because they just didn't interpret relationship further than that. For example, like many people I loved Arcane, but, I don't buy Vi and Caitlynn's relationship. And Arcane is probably one of the better written things I have watched in a while, yet it couldn't make me believe its main romance, the series literally had to throw the "I wasn't meant to be..." speech with the subtlety of a sledge hammer to announce it because the writers realized they did a poor job with it. Though, I played League for a long while so I might be biased since I can't even imagine those 2 as friends, much less as a couple. Then we have Voltron... my God, the writers did it so poorly there that had to announce it in a Tweet, just like Rowling, give me a break. So yeah, there is a double standard, but, I also find the average romance in Anime to be not believable to begin with. |
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KrowRhogan
Posts: 61 |
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Trying to censor the fact that Suletta & Miorine DID actually marry is pretty stupid. It's pretty obvious. They both have rings on their ring fingers. Eri even comments on being Miorine's sister-in-law. Sounds to me like Japan is sensitive to same-sex issues in regular anime, but they have NO qualms about same-sex in hentai.
So stupid!! |
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Glordit
 Posts: 685 |
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Slightly off topic:
I have noticed over a few decades that the average anime fandom seems to shun and dislike male/male relationships, even if it's completely plutonic and the character are just really good friends. However, if it's female/female it gets a pass and at times is even encouraged. I always found that strange. Back on topic I would not be surprised if pressure from external sources made them rollback the marriage from G-Witch. There were already noises being made about it being too violent for its timeslot. |
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residentgrigo
 Posts: 2613 Location: Germany |
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This isn´t just about a bunch of CEOs stuck in the 80s. Every time something vaguely "political" thing happens in capeshit comics we have the usual Make Comics Great Again goons throw a fit despite their lack of interest in buying any comics. No one listens to them for the same reason no one starts thinking about what cancer cells have to say before doing chemotherapy. Nighttime anime and anything under a production committee structure on the other hand can´t survive without the core otaku market and if you put something actually gay in your show, horny Seinen lipstick lesbians never count, then you will end up with politics or feminist discussions in 2Chan and so on. And that shit can start waves! Can´t say that Japan is becoming less conservative to expect little difference in the future with anime. Angry otakus are something studios listen to. Gurren Lagan´s guest ep and Chainsaw Man´s adaptation "controversy" come to mind.
Manga and Japanese novels are and were of course decades ahead. The same can be said to a lesser degree about movies and TV dramas. 2023´s Tezuka winner Miss Yuria's Red Thread of Fate is about to air its drama to name something from the fall TV season. That one goes for every touchy social topic it can cover as it goes on. Japanese housewives are more progressive than 30-something male otaku. Who could have guessed... My Brother's Husband was adapted into a miniseries by the NHK. Made with tax-payer money! They also made a paraplegic tokusatsu mini-series with High Speed Parahero Gandine. Disability is as dicey a topic as gay rights in Japan and both were created without the goal of making money. Any pleas need to be directed at the NHK and purely streaming outlets such as Netflix or Amazon to get mass-marker anime with actual inclusion and explored gay themes on the air. NHK aired most of AoT so it´s hardly an indy venture. A Cruel God Reigns anime when? TWfM is part of larger IP and so are those idol shows so good luck getting anything done there. TWfM is easily one of the worst Gundam entries but it committed to gay marriage to a stronger degree than I ever expected in its very final minutes. A near Victory Gundam for inclusion so I would take the W here. The staff likely fought for it tooth and nail. |
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Heishi
 Posts: 1356 |
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On the topic of subtext in yuri, I'm still trying to figure out if NanoFate is undoubtably a clear cut thing and when will it really happen. Ever since that unofficial sequel/remake/reboot and/or ripoff of Final Fantasy 8(Force), I haven't heard much about that franchise, apart from that small crossover thing with Madoka. I wonder if the creator has officially given up on that franchise and its a now a dead franchise or something is coming but it may take about 5 decades for it to make a comeback.
...Oh, well, I'll just wait for a truly YURI canonical magical girl anime series. |
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merr
Posts: 488 |
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It’d be nice if we could have characters who just are gay, independent of their relationship with any other character. That way, when they do fall in love, it’s not buried in subtext or done in that way where characters are gay just for that one person because of destiny or whatever (hello, CLAMP.) Fuuka had a character who very casually says “I like guys” without being paired off, but that’s the only example I can think of that wasn’t comedic or part of a BL/yuri story.
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13242 |
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I suppose it leans more comedic, but in Bakemonogatari one character flat out says "I'm a lesbian" and her feelings for another girl is a major part of the story. I would definitely prefer it if more titles were upfront about this sort of thing. They are trying to keep plausible deniability to not turn away the waifu crowd, but no one is truly happy. The ambiguousness has lead to great suffering on my part as I usually fall in the "they're just friends" camp and as a result I've been harassed by those in the "they're obviously gay" camp. Suletta and Miorine obviously got married. Even I won't argue that. But sometimes they really are just close friends despite the fans' insistence otherwise. Take Amanchu for example. When the author learned fans thought Hikari and Futaba were a couple, she went as far as to give Hikari a male love interest to sink that ship. Enjoy things as you like, but don't try to force others to enjoy it the same way. |
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manapear
Posts: 1530 |
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Bringing Gojo x Geto back into this, we know that editors and publishers of shounen will push BL bait to make money from fujoshi, but I do wonder how far a creator actually interested in queer content is allowed to toe the line with their work?
Sometimes I feel like Akutami read a bit of CLAMP, and Gojo x Geto are any doomed pairing from that similar, 90s era "not" BL. I can't remember what the question was about romance and Gojo, but Akutami even worded it particularly that "he wouldn't be faithful to woman," and it felt like the implication was he'd be faithful to a man. (Well, his man.) There's a few, small things fans pick up on Gojo x Geto that does feel intentional, but I wonder if Akutami himself really ships them, and if so, if SJ expects the pushback for making Gojo (more so than Geto) explicitly into a man compared to the potential in positive attention (and money) they'd get from all sorts of fans and audiences. I agree with Glordit too. I feel like lately and even more than usual, BL is "allowed" to exist, but only in BL spaces and not in mainstream stuff. (Or if it does, there has to be GL to "pacify" people who would be put off by the BL.) But a work can be mainstream and allowed to have GL, if not explicit, then at least as bait. Even the BL bait in shounen works often feels like just enough tease and tropes than it does actually nodding at real feelings, so the bait feels even more flimsy than the GL bait that's allowed normally. I don't know if I made sense cause that was a ramble, but it's the sense I get when I read and watch newer stuff. |
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Thespacemaster
Posts: 1173 |
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I just can't believe that after all this time, there are still people in the industry in japan who even do this.
I mean, they had something good going on, they finally had a female lead in a Gundam franchise show and a good representative of the LGBTQ community at that and it elevated the Gundam franchise to a level not seen for that past couple of decades. Hell you could argue it pretty much revived it and than this happens. Honestly who ever thought this was a good idea to backtrack has got to be most idiotic person ever. It's 2023 man, they have to get with the times, hell the polls show that most of the younger generation are fine with it. Its too bad that the older demographic still have such a wide reach in the industry as it holds them back, not just for this but in a lot of areas as well. It may be ''Open to Interpretation'' but 99% of the whole fanbase and community pretty much agree they are a couple and official at that so they can take that to the bank and hopefully later down the road they will retract it again and make it 100% Official. Probably when the old are replaced with the new generation 
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 6356 |
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Maybe it’s me but Japanese writers when it comes to writing romances are not any less bad than American writers. They’re both prone to some wonky relationship writing. |
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4828 |
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I'm only secondhand-familiar with the specific series being discussed, but I completely agree that there's a clear double-standard when it comes to the portrayal of same-sex relationships. As TsukasaElkKite mentioned, female-female relationships are often relegated to the gross "just a high school phase they'll grow out of" pile, or even worse, the obligatory predatory lesbian. (I see you there, Chizuru from Bleach.) Male-male relationships arguably have it worse, since they hardly get any representation at all outside of dedicated BL titles, possibly because there's more of a stigma attached to them by the predominantly-male target fanbases of many popular series. The sad thing is that it's an issue on the fan side of things too. I read through that original Gundam news article thread out of curiosity, and there were a disturbing number of posters twisting themselves into knots to justify the "it was really just subtext" angle.
Same-sex relationships aside, what I found most interesting in this article was the preference towards relationships that are only implicitly defined. Honestly, I have the exact opposite preference: I want more series to cut to the chase and let their characters enter into explicit relationships. It's not that I don't agree that implicit relationships can still have a great deal of depth and value to them, and I have nothing against shippers (even though it's not really my thing). It's just that far too many series play the will-they-or-won't-they game for most of their runs, and if any of the lead characters do wind up together, it's often right at the very end of the series. I want to see more stories where we watch a defined relationship play out and grow over time. One of my favorite fictional romances ever remains the lead couple in Eureka Seven, because we got to watch what started as a one-sided teenage infatuation develop into a mutual attraction. And even though it wasn't necessarily outright stated, by the midway point Renton and Eureka were absolutely a couple, and throughout the second half of the series we got to watch them navigate all sorts of trials in their relationship. It made the ending all the more satisfying. (Heh...it's funny, I'm not at all the romantic type in real life, but I am all there for a well-told fictional relationshp.) |
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Pokenatic
 Posts: 583 Location: Neo Venezia |
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While I don't know exactly how things are in the Japanese otaku sphere, in the American sphere it's very much due to the trope of "girl on girl is hot" from English media just kinda normalizing it more, even if it's through more fetishistic means. That and there isn't any equivalent for female/female pairings that matches the extent of American otaku males that treat male/male pairings like they're radioactive material. |
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FinalVentCard
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 653 |
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Shout-out to Nanoha Takamachi and Fate Testatossa, who grew up, adopted a kid together, sleep in the same bed, dedicate two hours out of their daily schedule before bed for "tactical planning and personal time", are both called "mama" by the girl they adopted, have arguments over how their ward should be raised, and are even considered Canon by the women who voice them... but the writers still tried insisting that Nanoha × Yuno was somehow not off the table and forced a story/drama CD into the Nanoha universe where Fate goes on mission to some other planet because "she was getting too attached to Nanoha".
We've been down this road, and we ain't buying it. |
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