Forum - View topicANN Book Club -- Wolf's Rain.
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Wolf's Rain Book Club discussion thread!
Over the course of six weeks, we’ll be watching and discussing Wolf's Rain together, a fantastical quest of beauty and pain from the minds that birthed Escaflowne and Cowboy Bebop, although it is a new animal entirely. In a world and time of unknown nature, there is a lost pagan legend that prophesies the end of the world will come with the journeying of divine wolves to their home in Paradise. Of course, no one believes that fairytale anymore, after wolves were wiped out 200 years ago, shortly after Darcia the First's disastrous experiments. But wolves still stir in the mountains and cities of a dying world, and four of them bond together to follow the scent of flowers and the bloodred light of the moon to Paradise. Is there any hope for the world and a few perceptive humans? Is there any hope for the vagrant wolves? One thing's for sure: there's no direction but forward anymore. Also, I have taken a leaf from Key's smart book of discussion-streamin' and decided to start the new discussion week 48 hours after talk has ceased if it fails to carry a week, which it usually does. So there's no schedule down there yet, apart from the first week. Apart from normal forum rules, there will be only two additional rules for the book club threads: 1. Should you feel so compelled, you can skip ahead of schedule, but please don’t discuss episodes ahead of time in this thread. If the week’s schedule says we’ll be talking about episodes 1-4, don’t talk about what happens in episode 5. Don’t even use spoiler tags as an excuse. You can slightly foreshadow if you like, saying, “Remember what happens in that scene, it will be important in episode 5,” but no spoilage. Zip. Zilch. Nada. 2. Don’t be afraid to speak up about anything and everything you notice in the show, so long as you find it interesting or meaningful. I don’t have to worry about people being noobish much on ANN, so I want to address the opposite problem. Your opinion and participation are what will make this thread memorable and hopefully spark new life for old series for a while here on the ANN forums, so speak your mind! Wolf's Rain is a tissue box anime, so feel free to vent and conjecture, and given the spiritual underpinnings of the show, bring your beliefs to the table as well. Some stuff to keep in mind when you begin this journey, if you will indulge me: 1. Very important: the wolves ARE NOT shapeshifters! This is a common misconception, and it really distorts your understanding of the show and its latent symbolism near the end. The wolves appear human to foolish human beings. That is to say, MOST human beings. Don't spend too much time on how they do that (they are divine) but try to think about what it might symbolize. (Besides that humans are easier to animate than wolves in anime, har har. That was certainly a factor in the choice, but there is more to it.) 2. Keep a good eye on the Nobles. They aren't going to mention history and legend much in this show, sadly, and the Nobles will remain fairly enigmatic to the bitter end, but catching the fine details is a must for, once again, appreciating the symbolism. Basically, every time they crack open the Book of the Moon or look at something ancient, pay close attention. 3. I have a theory. It's just a theory, mind you, but it helped me track this show better, and I've watched it several times. It is stated in the special features that this show is a little unusual in that it was produced and written without knowing the ending. As in, the creators of the show did not plot this puppy from beginning to end, but got their feet wet on the first half or so and then figured out what they wanted to say later in the process. My theory is that this show started as a basic character-centered quest fantasy with just a little social commentary and, starting with the production of the last half, got shifted into a spiritually heavy allegorical tale laced up and down with symbolism that wasn't previously present. There is, after all, a large split in the story full of pointless recap episodes (that we will NOT watch, just a heads-up) that picks back up with an interestingly philosophical pack of segments up until the end. I wonder if some creative re-working wasn't executed there...anyway, watch for yourself and tell me what you think on that. The bottom of my rantings! Huzzah! Here's the bare bones schedule: INDEX September 11th - September 17th discussion TBA TBA TBA TBA TBA Thoughts on the series as a whole |
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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I hear a voice…calling to me…it says,
“GET ON WITH IT!” Episode 1 – City of Howls Episode 2 – Toboe, Who Doesn’t Howl Episode 3 – Bad Fellow Episode 4 – Scars in the Wilderness This particular arc covers the introductions and delving into our four important wolf characters and three important humans, with just a pinch of Cheza and Darcia as well. The journey has just begun… I’m going to do discussion questions/ideas again, because I’ve found that they do work quite well…
Have at it, folks! 
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guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
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I just finished a re-watch of this a couple weeks ago. I had only seen the series once years ago when it aired on Cartoon Network, and I really got a lot more out of the series the second time around. I may not drop in every week, but figured I would toss a couple impressions I had of the first few episodes while I remember it.
There are several early signs that the wolves are indeed always wolves even when they are human in apperance. The first and most obvious one to me was the scene where Tsume spoiler[attempts to save the boy on his crew from falling to his death. He has no hands, so he must use his jaws, and the result is not in the boy's favor.] The second thing that comes to mind was that Hige has a collar, and that even when he is in his human disquise, the collar is still in the larger form of a wolf's neck. One thing I've always been curious about is why Tsume creates an illusion of a knife when he gets into a fight, but the other wolves do not. I can only assume it is because he ran with humans and needed to have something for them to see so it did not look as if he can rend and slash things with his bare hands. It's kind of hard to think of things I want to bring up that don't lead into spoiler land, so I may just leave things here and check back a bit later on. I really do enjoy this series, Bones is one of my favorite studios. I also think this is a series where both the dub and sub are very well done, and there is definatly a lot of things that can be discussed a bit down the road. |
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angel_lover
 Posts: 645 Location: UK |
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I'm going to start before the beginning, with the OP. I'm not really sure that I can even hint about the things we see there and how they relate to the "world and time of unknown nature". Except that by the time you see the last episode, you'll understand. I wonder how many people though have not actually seen the "real" final episodes, and think that it ends up with all those recaps?
Unfortunately I saw WR on TV, so I didn't get the special features. If what you say really is the case, then I've got some questions to ask when we get to discussing the final episode. I guess that's about all I can say without breaking the Book Club rules. |
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BrothersElric
 Posts: 1996 |
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Just last night I decided I want to try and follow this episode per episode like the rest of you, just because yeah, I'd really like to watch this series over again.
 Mostly because it's been so long since I last saw it but also just simply because I really love this series. It's my #4 favorite in fact. Heh, in fact I re-watched the first episode just last night in anticipation for this thread being today to tell you the truth! I love it that much.  This'll definitely be very interesting to see what I can pick up on in watching it again. Especially since I'm a whole lot more perceptive and observant than I was back then..... (although I still struggle with it quite a bit even today )
Ah ha! Something I did actually observe a little bit way back when I watched it before! Heh, not really actually but I did think about it the whole way through and of course struggled to grasp what exactly it was all about. I remember switching on back and fourth thinking it was shape shifting one moment and thinking it was just some kind of illusion the next. Of course there were all the obvious symbols like the aforementioned scene with Tsume trying to save the boy and Hige's collar that I picked up on, but I swear half the time there were plenty of things being said that suggested they were shape shifters as well!  Even though I did find some of the more metaphorical stuff a little hard to grasp as well this whole wolf form/human form pretty much was the only thing I had a hard time following at all. Other than that this really is a pretty easy to understand epic series of the kind that I'm very, very fond of. It just has a lot of metaphorical meanings that one can pick up on watching it more often is all.
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Oh neat, I didn't realize that the book club was watching this one. I just recently finally picked up the last DVD of the series, though I had watched the entire thing on fansubs before.
I definitely think I will join in on this discussion because I'd love to watch the whole thing again. Plus, I want to listen to the whole dub, because it's quite well done (even if it took me ages to hear Joshua Seth as anyone but Tai from Digimon  ).
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Makes for more organic plotting, which can be just as satisfy as meticulously-plotted stories. Disagree that there is a lot of symbolism introduced in the second half that isn't there in the first, though. While the creative process will differ from individual to individual, frequently a lot of ideas are born as extensions from previously superficial ones. Taking a character trait or action, making a connection (one of the reasons why humans have survived so long is our ability to see patterns), and then echoing it later in a different yet somehow similar situation establish this type of allegorical reading. But, uh, this'll all be reserved for much later. I'm not sure if I'll be able to fit Paranoia Agent into my schedule, considering school and volunteer work... But it's been a longer time since I've seen Wolf's Rain (and haven't even re-watched it, yet!), so I'm definitely not missing out on this. |
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Well, on a minor note, I really like it when I can say that a show has an "image." You know, like you think of the show and a defined image pops into your head every time. Doesn't have to be a great show to have that, I mean, I think Code Geass is rather overrated, but when I think "Code Geass," I always get that image of Lelouch scowling with the Geass shining in one eye and go "brrrrr."
Wolf's Rain definitely has an image. A white wolf, giving up the ghost in the snow. Endless white behind him. Endless white before him. But even when we think he's dead, his eyes creeeeak open, and he lays there, waiting for a time to get up again and keep searching. That's always the image of that show. Moving on...
Tru dat. The only problem with this approach is plotholes in the backwriting. Now, I don't think Wolf's Rain has plotholes, but it has a lot of moments where they introduce an idea very late in the game in order to make something that may or may not have been symbolic originally HEAVILY symbolic near the end. Given the already-mentioned ironic nature of the OP animation and first scene, though, I do feel that if changes were made late in the game, they were integrated beautifully with concepts from the beginning. In any case, the main theme doesn't change, just its presentation from archetypal apocalyptic fantasy to dark, double-edged allegory.
If you're referring to the carrying of boxes and opening of doors that we see occasionally in the story, those threw me too the first time I saw it. I was positive that it was a plothole! However, all boxes have elastic straps (useful for teeth) on them, and EVERY doorknob was a push-down kind rather than a turning knob. They seriously thought this through... There is exactly ONE physically impossible act that a wolf performs in the show, and if you bend your brain a little, it could still be feasible. But it's about the last thing Kiba does in the last episode, so it won't be coming up for a while.
Well, the recaps are about halfway through the story and nobody really stops there. The place some viewers (a small number, but I have met some) stopped was at the broadcast ending for the series, episode 26, before the 4-episode OVA, and yes, that would be a terrible ending all by itself, necessitating the OVA anyway. I never even think of Wolf's Rain as a 30-episode show. I always considered a 26-episoder with some throwout in the middle: the recaps. That's how it was broadcast in the States, so it works fine. Anyhoo, my ruminations on the show's beginning: I always found the hierarchy of the Wolf's Rain world to be kind of interesting. It's a technically a tyrannical society, but it's more of an anarchy for the citizens involved. In most tyrannies, you have rulers that watch over the economics, justice system, and populace with an iron fist. But what if you had a tyrant (to be strictly accurate, several tyrants, only three of whom we meet) who didn't care? The Nobles hold absolute power, aside from a council of some sort that is referenced every once in a while and is more concerned with civic affairs. Still, the Nobles themselves don't run a very tight ship. I can't even call it an oligarchy because they isolate themselves from the other Nobles, kind of like the Mesopotamians and their individualist city-states. The people beneath them all lick their feet and struggle up the power ladder, but nothing important seems to be going on besides maintaining the city, i.e., surviving. It's hinted in a couple of places that you need a permit for just about everything and many resources are banned to the general public, but for the most part people are just left alone to get by however they can. It's almost more miserable than a strictly run autocracy for each city. There is no goal being advanced for the good of the people, no advancement of the state other than the secret desires of the Nobles, much of which we discover to be their personal pride and comfort. I mean on the plus side, there's no war, but every person is living just to survive, with no goal in mind and nowhere to go and the Nobles could care less if they live or die. Which might be what drives Cher to an addiction to her research over her now ex-husband. We'll learn more about those two later, but Cher is one of the few people in the city who has found joy in pursuing a higher goal. Cheza is a project to further a great change, and she's excited to be a part of it. Hubb doesn't get it at all, but he's a little stirred himself by the possibility of wolves existing. He's a detective, so just investigating it grinds his gears, as evidenced by the scene where he spends an entire night reading the Book of the Moon. Cher recognizes the change in him at the restaurant and isn't entirely comfortable with it, so she puts it behind her by taking a "vacation" that we'll learn about later. She does make an effort to reach out to him though, or at the very least vent her emotions. She tells him that she doesn't know what's real anymore and she wonders whether what she's been doing is important at all. It's that struggle of living for nothing that they're both having trouble with. So...why did it drive them apart? We're not there yet... As to why the wolves leave the city, Kiba's motivations are crystal clear. For whatever reason, he's willing to fight to the death to open Paradise and secure a future for all wolves and the world. Why is yet to be explored. Hige is bored, plain and simple. That, and despite his jabs at Kiba, you get the feeling that he has a little pride and doesn't like the slummy city life and having to stoop low to survive. Hence his sniffing around for Cheza. But he doesn't have any kind of passion for Paradise. Toboe is in love with the idea of Paradise, but more than that he's desperate for someone to take care of him. Not because he doesn't WANT to stand up for himself, but he does think himself pretty weak and inadequate. He's still a puppy, but wants to be a big dog, and if the big dogs are going to Paradise, he's coming too! Still, his faith in the destination is almost as ardent as Kiba's. Tsume...is still an enigma. You can't help but feel that Toboe's words have stung his pride, though. He isolated himself by putting himself in a position where he could be secure as a superior, but only ended up more outcast because of it. He may not like humans much, but he no doubt feels guilt over Gehl's death, which can't help his fear of commitment much. Why IS he so isolated anyway, and what really gets him to get off his rear and risk his life for a place he doesn't believe exists? I'm afraid the answers won't come for a while... I have more to say, but I'll save it for later... |
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wolfsbane12
Posts: 55 |
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I think Hubb becomes obsessed with the wolves and the book of the moon is because Cher is obsesses with them. He loves her and I think he wants to be interested in what she's interested in.
Tsume wants to be around a pack, he may not admit it, but he hates being alone. Though he wants them to think that...you'll have to wait until disc 2. Hige likes the comraderie. Toboe doesn't want to be alone and after the incident he's involved in with the little girl he can't stay around the city. Kiba is the most obvious, he wants to find paradise because he is drawn to it. The universe early on feels very much like a sci-fi version of the dark ages caste system where the nobles and the nights lived so much better then the peasants. I think the book of the moon was banned because the nobles didn't care for it, similar to why certain books (i.e. the gospel of mary, the story of Adam and Eve, and the Farmers Chronicle) were left out of the biblical canon. Ain't got a single idea of Cheza's importance cause absolutely nothing is known about her in the first ten (I think) episodes. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Yeah, Cheza spends a lot of time as a barely animate object. But she does have a personality, eventually. Really!
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BrothersElric
Posts: 1996 |
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That might have had something to do with it, but I can't remember. I was mostly just talking about how it always seemed to me that whenever it was from the human perspective it pretty much suggested they were shape-shifters. But I wonder if that actually has some meaning to it, like that just comes to show you how ignorant and gullible humans are or something. Speaking of which though, I just thought of a few things pertaining to this. One is expanding on the earlier mentioned collar that Hige has. Notice how not just him, but all of the wolves have something of the like. Can't remember exactly what Kiba's was or if he even has one in the first place, but Tsume has his scar and Toboe has his little bracelet. Each one of these things plays an important role for each character if I remember correctly enough (one of them was even recently mentioned in episode 2) so keep that in mind, especially for a certain humongous spoiler that is to happen in the future. I'll connect this more with that latter on when it actually happens. Another thing I thought of is the whole scene with Toboe trying to catch the bird of the girl that fed him in the streets and how he didn't mean to kill it, but did anyways because of his wolf attributes. Notice how from the girl's point of view she starts to see him more as a wolf. Now this is something that actually got me the first time around, and you could probably attribute that to thinking about transformation as well, but if you look at it the right way, knowing for sure that he isn't a shape-shifter, it kind of makes sense what's going on. She didn't know Toboe was a wolf at first because of how naturally human-like he was to her, but as she starts to see the more savage, animal side of him through this example she's able to understand more what he is and therefore can see him as the wolf that he really is behind it all. Like I say, it's interesting to see all these things the second time around.
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Ehhh. Gotta pick on this statement a little. Tsume needs companionship because he's a pretty lousy loner, but I can't say he's hanging around the other wolves because he doesn't want to be alone. By contrast, even though he knows he needs other wolves to keep from wallowing in complete self-pity, I think he deliberately avoids them and chooses to be isolated whenever he can. The reasons for this won't become plain until later, but there's a lot of insight behind his statement to Toboe: "I don't trust anyone. That way, you see, no one has to trust me." His greatest problem (and the reason he needs the others so badly) is he has strong feelings of inadequacy. It's why he's not the leader. He's a bad leader, honestly. He has no faith in his own abilities. Gah, I wish I could say more, but the terrible reasons behind his complex won't become plain until the last few episodes! For now, we'll just say he's a very immature character and always tries to reject what he knows is good for him, like most "punk" stereotypes.
Guess now's as good a time as any for me to explain my theory behind how the wolves' spell works. Hubb and Cher will become good guinea pigs for explaining how it works (in a roundabout way) later, but for now, let's look at Quent. I don't think it's a literal hologram that they cast over themselves, as that would require some kind of technology (wolves don't have) and would probably affect everybody equally. Nobles, wolves, other animals, and certain humans can see right through it. Not to mention that their wolf noises change to human ones as well. (Footsteps being a prime example.) But there's no evidence to link wolves with the use of magic, either. (Curiously enough, the Nobles are VERY fond of magic. This will come to have story significance later. Why them and not normal humans?) So, we have an image that only affects run-of-the-mill humans...who are the only creatures out of that list above who don't believe in wolves. Hm. This makes me think that the wolves' illusion is entirely spiritual in nature. (They are divine beings, so it makes sense that it would be an ephemeral kind of power.) There will be a lot of statements later about how people "accepting" the world they live in, again, not able to believe in anything but what they needed to survive on. Part of what drives Kiba is a desperation to keep from living like humans, "just sitting around with no purpose." You'll see his fears realized in the wolves we meet in episode 5, who have fallen "lower than dogs" in his eyes. Okay, so, point: Humans are incapable of believing in wolves, so the wolves are easily able to give them what they want to see. People will easily accept that there are no such things as wolves and see only humans, so the wolves use that blindness to their advantage. It's entirely psychological...or maybe spiritual. In any case, it's certainly symbolic of one of the main themes of the story about those who are willing to accept a hard reality that's more meaningful than their false one. BrothersElric brought up a good point in mentioning the girl having to see Toboe's savage side before realizing that he was a wolf. (I think he let her see it, but she would have had to be willing to accept it, too.) In Quent's case, he DEFINITELY believes in wolves and even before he pushes himself to see through the illusion, he can tell when a stranger is a wolf or not, as evidenced by Toboe's fear of him in the alley. Anyway, I'll talk more about it later when Hubb and Cher come back into the equation and they start to believe more and more in the prophecies of the Book of the Moon. See what kind of effect it has on them. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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I've been meaning to join in one of these discussions but this is the first show discussed that I've had access to, time for and haven't re-watched too recently for a repeat but too long ago to remember all the details.
I remember quite liking Wolf's Rain but not thinking it anything special in the past so I'm looking forward to reading what makes it stand out to others and reappraising it this time around.
I agree that they've given some thought to what a wolf can actually achieve but there are some hiccups - I have a hard time imagining a wolf climbing a vertical ladder and then, at the top of the ladder, opening a manhole cover with its head for example (and, a little further into the series, I did find myself wondering how a group of wolves starts a fire on a chilly evening?). But that's just me being picky. A bigger problem, I thought, in terms of suspension of disbelief, was that the wolves often didn't seem to think, act or move (even when being depicted in their natural form) like wolves. They jump about in a distinctly non-lupine fashion - though that's maybe dismissable as action anime exaggeration - and there's a distinct lack of wolf-like pack dynamics once the four of them get together. Also, what did the key or lockpick that Hige produced during the cell break scene represent? Did he pick the lock with his claw?
It's certainly a dystopian society but I wouldn't say it was anarchical. There's a police force, other security forces (e.g. the soldiers defending the trains) and talk of dog wardens all of which suggests governance. There's also a standardised economy, regularised trade and at least some degree of industry all of which, again, tends to indicate that some group or other is holding the reins - and in the absence of any form of collectivism, that presumably has to be government.
Aside from the nobles' isolationism, this seems to me to somewhat echo the pre-revolutionary Russian aristocracy - making it fitting for a story with a decidedly Russian setting - in that such people wouldn't see it as befitting their status to get their hands dirty flexing their iron grip in person or even necessary to do so. They had managers and agents to run their estates and appointed officials to run their cities. Historically, there were vast estates with large populations owned by nobles who never once visited them because they were inconveniently and unfashionably distant from Moscow and St. Petersburg but which managed to operate for generation after generation in any case. It's rather a shame that the music for the show has no such Russian influence - the first DVD alone has given us everything from AOR to flamenco guitar to jazz...it's a little bit distracting. |
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wolfsbane12
Posts: 55 |
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You're right Jesusotaku, I didn't even ragard that line but it does say a lot about his character.
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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See, that's the kicker. Real wolves don't talk, either, and that didn't seem to bother you. Heck, the entire human appearance spell is bizarre, leave how they jump or move. We will see some "talking animals" later in the show, but they can only be understood by the wolves, so it's not really cheating. These wolves aren't normal old animals. They are divine creatures, not the same as we think of the run-of-the-mill canine wolf. This is a semblance of Japanese mythology that associated the wolf with the heavenly realms. It was a messenger of the gods, bringing their will into the earthly realms, and able to move back and forth between them. I think it's interesting that the story of Wolf's Rain calls human beings the "wolves' messengers." So if the wolves are the gods' messengers, we're theirs? What does that mean for humanity in this story? Eh. That's what Hubb and Cher are even in the story for, and the Nobles echo some of that, but to a negative degree. But I'm getting ahead of myself. Just know that these are "wolves" like the ones in Japanese myth, not regular animals with superpowers to fit the fantasy. (Play Okami for the PS2 or the Wii. THAT kind of wolf.) That being said, it's perfectly permissible for them to talk, flip through the air and vanish like ninjas, and cast spells of denial on foolish humans. It's a connection that native Japanese were far more likely to make than us Americans (or Canadians or Europeans or Filipinos...) On the note of them not acting like wolves, I was particularly impressed with the wolf animation in how non-expressive it was. The human facade was useful for expressing human emotion, but when in wolf-mode, they don't smile or make human expressions. They convey emotion the way the actual animal would, and it's very stoney in comparison, even for the expressive Toboe. About the most human look we get is Kiba's here: 
...and it makes me giggle.
As for Hige, I figured he pulled the same trick he did with the hotdog and snarked the key off of someone, hiding it in his mouth, or even his fur. He's a little chubby, but beyond that, he has very thick and fluffy fur compared to the other wolves, as personified in his human appearance having thick hair and baggy, bulky sweats.
The Nobles are peculiar in their uppityness. It's not so much, I reiterate, that they think themselves better from normal people. This is rarely...in fact, I think this is never expressed from any Noble character (until Darcia becomes arrogant by allying himself with a new force later on, but it's not a Noble trait.) It's almost as if they disregard common humanity altogether as a population they have to share space with, but aren't obligated to regard for any other reason. There's no superiority complex there, just complete indifference. So this is an interesting comparison to draw. I'll post the new schedule sometime tomorrow. I should say, though, that I think I'm going to turn this into a seven-weeker instead of six for better pacing... |
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