Forum - View topicREVIEW: Ninja Scroll DVD
|
Goto page 1, 2 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | ||
|---|---|---|---|
|
Amused Observer
Posts: 164 |
|
||
|
I came across it when another AoD forum poster created a thread about this review. I have to say I'm amused by it.
"Ninja Scroll is partially responsible for the negative image Anime had in the mid to late 1990s, up through the recent explosion in the last three to four years." I would like very much to know where this fact comes from, because it's certainly news to me. If you can point me to any online or offline source, I would greatly appreciate it. I should also note that, at least in America, "wall-to-wall gory action sequences" was very mainstream in American theaters, due to the influence of the 80s horror films like the Friday the 13th series, Nightmare on Elm Street series, and Stephen King adaptations such as The Shining (1980), and arguably even the Terminator (in its various reincarnations). The influence of these films on later films, in terms of American acceptance of gory violence scenes, is arguably similar to the way The Matrix (1999) has affected special effects scenes and fighting scenes in post-Matrix films. As for works that is "ridiculously violent, exploitative towards women," I assume that you never heard of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre? (And as an aside, there is supposedly a remake of this film hitting the theaters in the near future.) The Ninja Scroll review seems to ignore the realities of mainstream America, and how integrated sex & violence is in American entertainment. even back in the 1990s. And in this review for Ninja Scroll, it appears to me that this OVA is given far more credit for giving anime a bad name (in terms of the gory-sex image) than it deserves. If you want to pin blame, you could go with Devil Man (1995), Guyver (1996), Mad Bull (1996). And that's just a list of non-hentai anime from one studio. There's certainly more enough anime releases from the mid to late 90s to spread the blame around; Ninja Scroll shouldn't be blamed more than this review is suggesting here. |
|||
|
|||
|
GATSU
Posts: 15594 |
|
||
|
Amused: "As for works that is "ridiculously violent, exploitative towards women," I assume that you never heard of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre?"
Actually, that's what I hear when people talk about "I Spit On Your Grave", which I need to see eventually. Texas Chainsaw Massacre would have to be exploitive towards women, considering it's loosely based on a real-life serial killer who would make Mima-maniac look like an annoying otaku. "If you want to pin blame, you could go with Devil Man (1995), Guyver (1996), Mad Bull (1996)." Um no. Rape Man's the best(or worst?) example of the anime and manga to hate. Anyway, here's my two cents. "To answer the second question, if you’re a fan of this movie, you don’t need anyone to tell you to buy this thing" No, Zac, that did not answer my question. I'd prefer to hear your opinion on the supplementary material instead, rather than suggesting I'm one of those retards who will pay for a dvd twice just because I love the content. And so far, you do a half-ass job of explaining why I should buy it. "Ninja Scroll is partially responsible for the negative image Anime had in the mid to late 1990s, up through the recent explosion in the last three to four years." You mean the idea of adapting the story of a traditional cultural icon into a different media is bad? Hey, let's trash movie versions of Hamlet and Caesar, because they have their fair share of sex and violence too! "Ninja Scroll is not admired for its touching, poignant story, or amazing character development," This is the jidaigeki period you're talking about. If you want a period of Japanese history where people are allowed to grow and relate in harmony, then go back to the Heian. When a daimyo's soldiers could easily rape and pillage your fellow villagers with one word, the last concern on your mind would be your emotions. "People like to watch Jubei hack up grotesque monsters. That’s really all there is to it." Hey, the Japanese have a holiday where they throw beans at demons. Why don't you insult that next? "The problem is, this isn’t what anime is anymore." Yes, it's pre-teens jerking off, cock-fighting, or showing off their panties. Anime is more evolved now. "As you watch the rock-skinned demon guy rip the arms off of some samurai and drink the blood from his veins, and then summarily rape that samurai’s female companion, stop and think. This is what anime used to be in America" And? "Anime used to be synonymous with graphic, brutal violence and sex;" Of course when that kind of content's in a 3 hour movie about some tree-hugging chick raised by wolves, it's more respectable. I remember some woman I talked to getting offended by the idea of Princess Mononoke(or any animated film) having a former prostitute, but I guess because Miyazaki's more subtle with his presentation, he's worth defending over Kawajiri. "Anime fans these days don’t want Ninja Scroll; they want Rurouni Kenshin or Trigun or Naruto." Of course in your ignorance, you've forgotten that one of the animators from Trigun worked on the latest version of Ninja Scroll the tv series. "The days of the super-violent, big-budget action anime film are dead and gone," Someone forgot to tell him about the upcoming Fist of the North Star oav. [/i] |
|||
|
|||
|
Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
|
||
|
"Amused: "As for works that is "ridiculously violent, exploitative towards women," I assume that you never heard of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre?"
Are you trying to tell me, Amused, that because Texas Chainsaw Massacre is violent and exploitative that Ninja Scroll is NOT? Where, sir, is the logic in that? There is none. Your comments about there having been violent animation in America have NOTHING TO DO with the argument at hand. I do not see any connection between the Nightmare on Elm Street films and the fact that Ninja Scroll, Akira and Urotsukidoji made a hell of a lot of Americans think that all anime is sex and violence. If you people think that Ninja Scroll and its popularity were innocent bystanders in the reputation that anime had in the mid 1990's, then NONE of you were anime fans back then and obviously have NO CLUE how perception has changed over the years. I don't have any "hard data" to back this up, except that there are a HELL of a lot of people who will agree with me on this. Others, like me, who LIVED through that period and KNOW what it was like, who know what Ninja Scroll meant in 1996. Yeesh. "No, Zac, that did not answer my question. I'd prefer to hear your opinion on the supplementary material instead, rather than suggesting I'm one of those retards who will pay for a dvd twice just because I love the content. And so far, you do a half-ass job of explaining why I should buy it." Okay, Gatsu, you got me there. I probably should have gone on longer about the extras. To be honest, there isn't much. A handful of interviews and a trailer. The money they spent putting this thing together obviously went towards the restoration; I guarantee you that this DVD looks and sounds a heck of a lot better than the one you have now. That's the reason to buy it. Hell, there isn't even any cross-promotion for the TV series on here. But, you make a valid point on this, and I concede that to you. I should have spent more time on the extras. "People like to watch Jubei hack up grotesque monsters. That’s really all there is to it." Hey, the Japanese have a holiday where they throw beans at demons. Why don't you insult that next?" I need to stress that this is NOT an insult. Ninja Scroll is incredibly violent. You cannot deny that. The reason this thing is so popular is because it's really violent. Truth be told, it isn't like the story for this OVA is really deep. Mostly it's a string of excuses for Jubei to hack up monsters. I didn't say there was anything WRONG with that, did I? No. I said the film was violent and exploitative. It is. Is that bad? Well, the exploitation is, yes, but the violence is harmless. Is the movie fun? Yes. Is it worth seeing? Yes. And these are things I put in the review. My statement about Ninja Scroll being partially responsible for the negative image anime had is NOT a bad thing. It's a statement of fact. Here's what I'm getting at: "Napoleon conquered parts of Europe." Fact. "Napoleon, the vicious, bloodthirsty general of doom, conquered countless innocent European towns." Fact, with serious editorializing. Had I said: "Ninja Scroll is one of the first anime to break out here in America, and due to its extreme violence, it pissed off a whole lot of housewives who in turn managed to smear the name of anime as being violent and exploitative." That's semi-fact, with a lot of opinion thrown in, and is a lot harder to back up than just stating the basic fact, which is that Ninja Scroll helped promote the concept that all anime is sex and violence. ""Anime fans these days don’t want Ninja Scroll; they want Rurouni Kenshin or Trigun or Naruto." Of course in your ignorance, you've forgotten that one of the animators from Trigun worked on the latest version of Ninja Scroll the tv series. " Huh? Okay, man, THINK BEFORE YOU TALK. The lead animator on Ninja Scroll could have done 2000 episodes of Hello Kitty's Magical World and it wouldn't mean anything about the content of Hello Kitty. Trigun is NOWHERE near as violent as Ninja Scroll the OVA; and, I should note, the TV show is much closer to today's anime style than the OVA is, in terms of violence and tone. ""The days of the super-violent, big-budget action anime film are dead and gone," Someone forgot to tell him about the upcoming Fist of the North Star oav." Right, because, that one minor example is enough to prove your point versus the HUNDREDS of examples I could use from the past 5 years to point out the fact that non-hentai anime in America and even what's being produced in Japan is just NOT as violent as it used to be. I think you all REALLY misread the review and managed to completely miss the point of it. Furthermore, none of your arguments make any sense at all. Go back, read the review again. Might do you some good. |
|||
|
|||
|
Amused Observer
Posts: 164 |
|
||
|
You're missing my point entirely. Here's the last paragraph of my response to the review and the thesis of my post, again:
"And in this review for Ninja Scroll, it appears to me that this OVA is given far more credit for giving anime a bad name (in terms of the gory-sex image) than it deserves. If you want to pin blame, you could go with Devil Man (1995), Guyver (1996), Mad Bull (1996). And that's just a list of non-hentai anime from one studio. There's certainly more enough anime releases from the mid to late 90s to spread the blame around; Ninja Scroll shouldn't be blamed more than this review is suggesting here." That's the main issue I have with your review. You're blaming Ninja Scroll for giving anime a bad name (even though you wrote "partially responsible", the rest of your review made it seem like NS is entirely responsible because you didn't mention other equally blame-worthy anime like Urotsukidoji.) "Are you trying to tell me, Amused, that because Texas Chainsaw Massacre is violent and exploitative that Ninja Scroll is NOT?" At NO POINT did I even suggest that NS isn't a violent anime show. Please kindly reread my post again. And I don't know why you feel the need to throw in this reply: "Others, like me, who LIVED through that period and KNOW what it was like, who know what Ninja Scroll meant in 1996. Yeesh." What makes you think that *I* haven't lived through that period? it is precisely BECAUSE I lived through it (heck I started anime in the summer of 1993, and I KNOW what's out there back then, because there wasn't much compared to now) that I can DISAGREE with your personal-assessment-framed-as-factual-assertion. Your reply, once again, illustrates a bad tendency to engage in ad hominen attacks against me, rather than discuss the merits of my response like you did with Gatsu. Are you still angry at me for our discussion of the merits of Azumanga Daioh's appeal to 25+ year old males back in June? 
|
|||
|
|||
|
Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
|
||
|
"That's the main issue I have with your review. You're blaming Ninja Scroll for giving anime a bad name (even though you wrote "partially responsible", the rest of your review made it seem like NS is entirely responsible because you didn't mention other equally blame-worthy anime like Urotsukidoji.) "
Ask anyone on the street what anime they've seen. Chances are, they'll say Ninja Scroll and Akira. Not Mad Bull. Not Guyver. I did a series of lectures on anime and asked how many people in the room had seen Akira and Ninja Scroll. Nearly every hand shot up. I didn't ask about Guyver or Devil Man. I GUARANTEE you that almost nobody would have seen them. Yes, Ninja Scroll IS more responsible than the other titles because it's HAD more exposure and if you don't know that, then you aren't paying attention to the people around you and the pop culture climate. "At NO POINT did I even suggest that NS isn't a violent anime show. Please kindly reread my post again." Tell me something. If that isn't your point, then what the hell does this: "As for works that is "ridiculously violent, exploitative towards women," I assume that you never heard of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre? (And as an aside, there is supposedly a remake of this film hitting the theaters in the near future.)" have to do with anything in this argument? You're pointing out another gory movie? What does that have to do with anything? Yes, violence existed in America before Ninja Scroll. I know. I don't see how this connects at all. Kindly explain. "American acceptance of gory scenes" in live action AMERICAN films does not connect to American acceptance of violence in FOREIGN ANIMATED FILMS, except as a contrast. You can say "well, they accepted it here, but notably they didn't accept it in animated form." That's really the only valid point you can make bringing up Texas Chainsaw, and it has NOTHING to do with this discussion. "What makes you think that *I* haven't lived through that period? it is precisely BECAUSE I lived through it (heck I started anime in the summer of 1993, and I KNOW what's out there back then, because there wasn't much compared to now) that I can DISAGREE with your personal-assessment-framed-as-factual-assertion." Because there is no possible way you are coming from my generation - and again, I've been around a HELL of a lot of media junkies from my generation, doing the aforementioned lecture series and teaching a community college class on anime - and NOT KNOW that Ninja Scroll has had 10 times the exposure Devil Man or Guyver does. It is simply a bigger title with more widespread exposure and THEREFORE is more responsible for the spread of the notion of anime being excessively violent and exploitative. "Your reply, once again, illustrates a bad tendency to engage in ad hominen attacks against me, rather than discuss the merits of my response like you did with Gatsu. Are you still angry at me for our discussion of the merits of Azumanga Daioh's appeal to 25+ year old males back in June?" I get mad when people don't make any sense, and I get mad when people whine and moan about minor arguments. If you're crying about me taking some shots at you in the middle of an argument, then maybe you shouldn't provoke me in the first place if you get so upset about a few off-the-cuff remarks. -Zac |
|||
|
|||
|
GATSU
Posts: 15594 |
|
||
|
Zac: "If you people think that Ninja Scroll and its popularity were innocent bystanders in the reputation that anime had in the mid 1990's, then NONE of you were anime fans back then and obviously have NO CLUE how perception has changed over the years."
Sorry, but I do believe Ninja Scroll was an innocent bystander. If you've actually been paying attention, it actually won a cultural award at a Japanese film festival. So it's technically on the same level as Spirited Away in terms of respectability. And the people who tried to generalize tentacle rape as the only form of anime also blamed Marilyn Manson for violent kids. So no, I don't feel a movie like Ninja Scroll hurt anime. This stuff helped the companies make money, and they helped get anime in stores long before Pioneer was selling Trigun. ADV wasn't always the huge company it is today, and the idea that any of these companies could cross-over into different products was unheard of back then. I mean it's easy to blame Ninja Scroll instead of the sheep who made Armageddon a hit, but it's not realistic. "Violent anime" such as DBZ helped create the marketability of anime in general on tv. So you wouldn't be seeing your beloved FLCL on Cartoon Network if it wasn't for those Goku cosplayers. And why is it Ninja Scroll gets the blame when shows like Beavis and Butthead and South Park have just as much violence? "Okay, Gatsu, you got me there. I probably should have gone on longer about the extras. " Fair enough. "The reason this thing is so popular is because it's really violent. " If that were the case, then Violence Jack would be a smash hit. "Mostly it's a string of excuses for Jubei to hack up monsters." As I said, you have to understand the period before criticizing the violence. "and, I should note, the TV show is much closer to today's anime style than the OVA is, in terms of violence and tone. " After legally seeing the first episode, I disagree. It's darker than most anime today, even if it is toned down from the original. "Right, because, that one minor example is enough to prove your point versus the HUNDREDS of examples I could use from the past 5 years to point out the fact that non-hentai anime in America and even what's being produced in Japan is just NOT as violent as it used to be." I don't think violent anime has declined as it's just changed to being more abusive. |
|||
|
|||
|
Amused Observer
Posts: 164 |
|
||
|
"Ask anyone on the street what anime they've seen. Chances are, they'll say Ninja Scroll and Akira. Not Mad Bull. Not Guyver. I did a series of lectures on anime and asked how many people in the room had seen Akira and Ninja Scroll. Nearly every hand shot up. I didn't ask about Guyver or Devil Man."
By not asking, you cannot legitimately use that informal poll as support that people didn't know about Guyver or Devil Man. Heck, I would even suggest that Devil Lady was made and released as a R1 series partially because of people's interest in Devil Man series. If that's the case, then yes, people have heard of it. Guyver had a following as well. Viz released the English translated manga as monthly comics (it was being released along with Maison Ikoku (sp?), Ranma 1/2, and Battle Angel Alita), and then as graphic novels that American readers kept buying. To suggest that no one has heard of it is rather impausible. ---- "Yes, violence existed in America before Ninja Scroll. I know. I don't see how this connects at all. Kindly explain. "American acceptance of gory scenes" in live action AMERICAN films does not connect to American acceptance of violence in FOREIGN ANIMATED FILMS, except as a contrast. You can say "well, they accepted it here, but notably they didn't accept it in animated form." That's really the only valid point you can make bringing up Texas Chainsaw, and it has NOTHING to do with this discussion." The way you keep pounding on the graphic sex & violence scenes of Ninja Scroll in your review made it seem like those scenes don't exist in mainstream America. It's almost like you're giving out a Sunday Church sermon on the pulpit against sex and violence. That's why I felt the need to explain how mainstream those elements are in American entertainment by the mid to late 90s. Because your review MAY give the false impression to the reader (particularly kids who weren't alive during the 80s) that anime is the root cause of the prevalence of sex & violence in American entertainment. ---- "Because there is no possible way you are coming from my generation - and again, I've been around a HELL of a lot of media junkies from my generation, doing the aforementioned lecture series and teaching a community college class on anime" Unless you're in your 30s and up, I'd bet we're VERY close in age. I dont know what gave you the impression that I'm a young dude (not that I mind, of course  ). And unless you've been teaching at Los Angeles (or nearby areas) or NYC, I honestly question how much reliance you can place on informal polls in your particular community as a barometer of the perception of anime in America, in any time period for that matter. If let's say your poll was taken at Otakon, and that's the feedback you received from your audience, I would not hesitate to accept it. Your sample, from which you derived the Ninja Scroll perception stated in your review (which will be widely read, btw), seems rather illegitimate.
--- "I get mad when people don't make any sense, and I get mad when people whine and moan about minor arguments. If you're crying about me taking some shots at you in the middle of an argument, then maybe you shouldn't provoke me in the first place if you get so upset about a few off-the-cuff remarks." I respectfully disagree with you on several points in your statement. First, civility and courtesy should be strived for, regardless of the situation. Instead of attacking my disagreements with you (as you did in your second reply to my initial post, thank you ), you initially dismissed my reply offhand with ad hominen attacks. I don't go out of my way to nitpick on your reviews, Zac. I didn't feel the need to even comment on your reviews (which are generally good, btw) until Ninja Scroll.
Second, your view of Ninja Scroll's place in the history of anime in America is not just an "off-the-cuff" remark. It is an important point in your review, and a legitimate one to consider since you ARE reviewing the 10th Anniversary Edition dvd. I just disagree with your conclusion, and felt a need to address it. |
|||
|
|||
|
Amused Observer
Posts: 164 |
|
||
Hey Gatsu! Perhaps you should write up an article on the influence of Dragon Ball on the acceptance of anime in mainstream America? I understood that Ninja Scroll was meant to be a reflection of its time period, but since I dont know much, I didn't comment on that aspect of NS. 
Also, am I the only one who actually thinks the basic premise (the perception that anime = sex and violence) may be factually wrong? While lying on my bed last nite, I thought back to all the cartoons and anime I watched while growing up. in the mid to late 80's, you had American cartoons like Smurf, G.I.Joe, Flinstones, Scooby Doo, Care Bears, He-Man, She-Ra, Transformers (really bastardized American dubs of Japanese anime), Go Bots, Robotech/Macross, Inspector Gadgets, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (I met the voice actor of Donatello at BAAF). And those shows kept running on American television through the early to mid 90s (and beyond for Transformers)? in the early to mid 90s, anime shows that came out include Magic Knights Rayearth, Evangelion, Escaflowne, Ranma, and Sailor Moon. And I think Kimagure Orange Road came out in the 80s. Anime fans who were aware of what's around during the 90s would tend to think that anime is all about robots and magical girls, I think, rather than sex and violence. And dragon ball (also a 90s show) wouldn't be considered a violent show per se, but more of martial arts action oriented. 
|
|||
|
|||
Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10463 Location: Do not message me for support. |
|
||
I'd have to disagree, the examples you give are as bad, or worse than Ninja Scroll, but, combined, they haven't been seen by a quarter as many people as Ninja Scroll. Zac wasn't saying that Ninja Scroll was single handedly the most violent and gratuitous Anime of the period, he was saying that it was partially responsible for the image of Anime as a medium filled with violence and gratuity. The two points are important, 1) partially responsible not solely, and 2) because it was soo popular. And why are you reacting this way? Zac wasn't atacking the show; NS is extremely violent and gratuitous. He never said it was bad because of that, he merely said that it helped contribute to Anime's image in North American at the time. -t |
|||
|
|||
|
Amused Observer
Posts: 164 |
|
||
|
I think the bottom line is that I disagree w/ WHAT the perception of anime is in North America in the mid to late 90s. I look at shows like Evangelion and Sailor Moon, and I can't agree that anime = sex and violence at that time.
|
|||
|
|||
|
Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10463 Location: Do not message me for support. |
|
||
Of course not! But that premise is fairly common in the mainstream, and 5-10 years ago it was much more common. The only Anime that the mainstream people had heard about at the time was violent, and quite possibly aso full of sex. Slowly, people outside the core-fans, are learning that just like other mediums, Anime has a diverse range of titles, many of which don't include any sex or violence. But Ninja Scroll certainly included a lot of violence, and some sex scenes that definitely stood out. Since Ninja Scroll, Urotsukidoji and other similar titles were the ones people were hearing about at the time (1992-1995), people got the wrong impression that Anime was all like that. That was Zac's point, and I agree with him 100%. (and yes, the titles you mentionned (Devil Man, Guyver, Mad Bull)did contribute as well, but not as much titles that received more publicity.) -t |
|||
|
|||
|
Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10463 Location: Do not message me for support. |
|
||
Not at all. Just like American Cinema, Violence and Sex were integrated into certain genres of Anime. But in America, everyone was aware of the diversity of Hollywood; they knew about Predator and the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, but they also knew about Mrs. Doubt Fire(93), Philadelphia(93) and Forrest Gump(94). On the otherhand, when it came to Anime, first impressions went a long way towards creating an incorrect sterotype. Anime had been in North America since the 60's, but next to no one realized that they'd been watching Anime since they were children. They only found out what Anime was when they read in the papers about Urotuskidoji, and went to the video store and picked up Akira or Ninja Scroll. Critically speaking, each of those films is extremely good in its own right, but the quality of Akira doesn't do anything to diminish the reputation of Anime as violent. The Anime that could make people think otherwise, wasn't getting much exposure at the time. Sailormoon, which was popular at the time, certainly wasn't full of sex and violence, but the version of Sailor Moon that americans were presented with didn't do much to improve their perception of Anime. "Okay, so when it's not sex and violence it's whinny 16 years olds with nude transformation scenes... Anime is teh suck." |
|||
|
|||
|
Amused Observer
Posts: 164 |
|
||
|
I don't know if I would lump NS with La Blue Girl, Urotsukidoji, and other hentai titles that were around back then. Those hentai shows, more than anything else, is what gave people the idea that anime is just "sex and tentacles."
But you're since you're the editor-in-chief of this site, you get the last word. 
|
|||
|
|||
|
Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10463 Location: Do not message me for support. |
|
||
I wouldn't lump them together either. But people got their view of Anime from those titles. |
|||
|
|||
|
ganzo
Posts: 53 |
|
||
|
There too many words, I can't read them anymore. But ninja scroll rocked when it came out years ago, and maybe I didn't realize it was a classic years ago, but after these years, the fact that I still remeber the film well with vivid images in my head does prove this film has endured to be a classic through time.
And DVD release was no surprise to me, because I know there are people who loved it, and digitalize it was just the right thing to do. Yet I don't see much difference from dvd versiona and the old vhs version( as in visual clarity). And when I rewatched it I was surprise at how solid and awsome this piece of work is. For ones who complain about the gore and sex in the film, I do think its time to stop the complain and stop watching this type of anime if you already know you don't like it and there are good anime that is more suitable to you such as works from ghibli and disney. |
|||
|
|||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group