Forum - View topicIncorrect credits
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Milk
Posts: 32 Location: East |
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Some Japanese otakus are really upset with Anime news network encyclopedia because some of the information is not really correct.
What they are upset about is someone put wrong information there and make it believe that inbetween-animation is more inportant than key-animation. I mean mostly Japanese animaters do key-animation and they put out inbetween works other countries but in ANN encyclopedia they just showed those inbetweenes' names and made it like they were the ones who did the whole animation. For example, Japanese key-animaters' names were expeled from the staff list of Macross plus, although there were those inbetween-animater's names on it. I don't think ANN stuff did it on purposely but when someone makes encyclopedia, the imformation should be trustworthy. (by the way the names of Macross plus staff have been corrected) It has happend to not only to Macross Plus but also to other anime as well and I think why it happens is because most of the time Japanese staff' names are shown by Kanji characters while the name's of those people who do out sauceing work are shown by alphabet( if you watch those fan sub anime), so if you don't know how to read Kanji you would think those people by alphabet names are the main staff. Well, some Japanese otaku has emailed ANN staff already-that's why they corrected the staff names of Macross Plus and I hope they will correct Metro Police and other anime staff lists too. By the way, those Otakus outside of Japan really know the difference of key-animation and between animation?(and what chief animater is?) I just wonder. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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We were fully aware of that incident. ANN's entry in Wikipedia Japan was created on 2007-02-13, basically in order to attack ANN on this matter. Chris had made an official announcement over this issue, but those Japanese Wiki writers seemed to have ignored him (other than removing ANN's link with Anime Expo). And I refuse calling those ranting 2channelers otaku; they are merely "kitchen boys."
If you want to give others constructive criticism, fix your spellings first, Miruku. You said that any information in the Encyclopedia must be trustworthy, right? Then what about the link between ANN and Anime Expo when user IKENO updated Wiki's entry? Shouldn't s/he do more homework? Similar to Wikipedia in some degree, ANN Encyclopedia has most of its information contributed by its registered users and is impossible to be completely error-free because people make mistakes. Staff would like to reduce as many mistakes as possible, but we are human too -- we have to sleep, eat, rest, earn our paycheck, and do something other than sitting in front of a computer all day long. If I remembered correctly, Yukikaze and Macross Plus were both fixed in less than 24 hours after ANN received the first error report on them. That "customer service" is better than most non-free, brick-and-mortar businesses.
You have really, really underestimated the capability of foreign nationals. |
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Milk
Posts: 32 Location: East |
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First of all I didn't know that Chris had made the official announcement and maybe other 2channelers didn't either and you should have known that it's most likely most of Japanese otakus are also 2channelers as well since 2ch is the most huge message board and I can also say many of them are veteran otakus.
And I apologize you that if my lack of English ability annoyed you but I can't help it like you can not write Japanese perfectly if you are not raised in Japan. And I already wrote that I didn't think ANN staff did it on purposely because since those people who watch fansubs only can recognize alphabet names and I think they would be the ones who made the wrong staff lists. I also didn't want Japanese otakus and ANN staff misunderstanding each other and that was the reason why I posted the subject. I thought unless they saw their opinions on ANN and heard what ANN's response they wouldn't be quiet. I was like a representative of the opinions of 2channelers but it seemed like you just ruined it. Since I was a member of ANN I still think I don't want them to think ANN's information is not trustworty. After all ANN has been introduced as the most trusted Anime site outside of Japan. |
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
 Posts: 3792 Location: Montreal |
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Milk, I appreciate your concern and in this case the best way to help is to remind the Japanese fans that the ANN Encyclopedia is much like wikipedia. We claim to be the Internet's most trusted anime NEWS source, not the most trusted encyclopedia, although I have pretty high confidence in the quality of the encyc and I'm positive no one can beat its extensiveness.
Since most of the staff here has low-to-abysmal Japanese skills, we are not always aware of grievances and misunderstandings can spread far before we even hear about them. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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On the contrary, I think it was because the original submitter tried too hard to translate kanji terms s/he didn't fully understand. Take the three most common translation engines: Babel Fish (B), Google Language Tools (G), and Animelab.com's Japanese to English dictionary (A), then input douga (動画), guess what will you get? B: Animated picture G: Animated picture A: video / motion picture / moving image However, you and I both know that in anime industry 動画 stands for "in-between animation," the lowly paid job for rookie animators, now often outsourced to South Korea and China. The results for genga (原画) are even worse: B: Field picture G: Field picture A: original picture The first two apparently took 原 (hara) and 画 as separate characters instead of an integrated phrase. The third one, however, is probably the cause of numerous "original picture" staff positions plaguing the Encyclopedia. I wish I could change them all to "key animation" with a single click.
Neither did I. However, letters and error reports sent to ANN were more like hate mails, filled with angry shouting, and many of them were blatantly discriminating and xenophobic, for example:
The item s/he reported was its Korean alternative title (마크로스 플러스), which has absolutely nothing to do with the key / in-between animator issue. This attitude -- dragging unrelated items into the war zone and ignoring the fact of the contribution of Korean in-betweeners -- really annoyed me. Some people even argued that "in-between animation" should be located below "key animation," not realizing secondary staff positions (whose you don't find in broadcaster's homepage or case cover; on which only primary staff e.g. director and character designer are listed) are sorted alphabetically.
Negative. It was their hostile attitude that forced us to take a defensive stance. I've met many Japanese people at various occasions. Most of them are very polite, intelligent, and courteous. It is the anonymity of the Internet (and 2ch in particular, for people can post articles there without a registered net ID e.g. dormcat) enabled 2channelers to show their teeth and claws (especially towards foreigners, whom they considered inferior) in an ijime manner. If they were unsatisfied with the accuracy of ANN's Encyclopedia, feel free to send a calm email / error report (I don't even ask them to be polite; just calm and straightforward would be enough) such as: "Yukikaze and Macross Plus has Korean in-betweeners as 'animation', making them look like key animators, and names of Japanese key animators are nowhere to be found. Please correct this mistake as soon as possible; complete staff list can be found at websites like D2_STATION." can avoid a lot of unwanted hostility. Better yet, they can participate this very community (I know the language barrier can be frustrating, but most veteran users are very tolerant as long as those who use English as the second language show their willingness to improve, and I can assure you we can tell the difference between a beginner learner and a lazy boy; for the record, I'm not a native English speaker either), teach us the newest trend and fandom, as well as Japanese culture and viewpoints, and we'd be more than happy to share ours in return (examples can be found at ceena-san's blog @ Hatena Diary). Filling ANN with hate mails can only reinforce the stereotypical negative image of otaku: anal to trivial matters and unable to control his own temper, plus enlarge the cultural gap between Japanese and overseas anime fans. |
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Milk
Posts: 32 Location: East |
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I understand I will remind them your response. |
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Milk
Posts: 32 Location: East |
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Unfortunately,dormcat, you are just making things more complicated. It seems you keep pushing the button. Now I know why you were so hostile but without your explainexplanation-about your so called hate mails- and accused 2channelars made things more worse. I know since 2ch is the anonymity message boards they are often hostile and harsh as much as they can be to you but it does't matter if you are Japanese or not. The problem is most of them don't understand English well so it means they easily misunderstand you and take your words as challenge(they are already thinking that way though). I will try to make things straight as much as I can though. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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Someone used my ID ("Dormcat", with letter D in upper case) to create two additional versions of ANN's entry in Wikipedia Japan, adding Tenjho Tenge: Ultimate Fight into the black list. Those were definitely NOT me.
I've been using this ID before ANN, 2ch, or Wikipedia has existed. While I'm prepared to be attacked by 2channelers, this identity theft is just low. Nevertheless, I have no intention, nor do I have any reasonable stance, to accuse Wikipedia "ignoring identity theft." Accusing ANN at fault for inaccurate / incomplete information within the Encyclopedia would be the same. Anyway, I was merely suggesting (not in the most friendly way, I admit; would you be friendly to those who had falsely accused you? Wouldn't you stand up and say "Igiari!"?) 2channelers a peaceful and more acceptable way to express their concern, for the best of both worlds.* If even such a suggestion was regarded as a hostile challenge then I've got nothing more to say. Overall, I appreciate your effort trying to mediate both sides and reduce hostility, and I thank whoever pointed out those entries with insufficient and/or confusing information in a non-aggressive manner, as ANN and its staff are always trying to improve ourselves and willing to listen to different opinions. Contrary to some accusations, however, such inaccuracy / insufficiency were not, and never will be, intentional (with the exception of organized "attacks" by spammers). Please let 2channelers understand this fact. Thank you. EDIT: To all reasonable 2channelers, including 魚介類さん (thanks for your translation): I know you are watching my every move, so please read and think my bolded text above. Also to 550さん and 667さん: thanks for Sunrise link, (although their translation is not the same to AIC's, not to mention American licensors); however, please at least spell my name correctly. EDIT2: Some 2ch users even falsely accused me and ANN taking bribes from Korean companies. That has crossed the line, you know. EDIT3: To 769め: show you some olive branches and you think I'm a coward, huh? It was people like you who brought negative images for otaku / 2channelers. Enough. Stop. Right. Here. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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For those who are still uncertain that whether the person writing in English is me or not (>>952), I can assure your it's me, the same dormcat in >>902, >>903, >>906, and >>909.
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PantsGoblin
 SubscriberEncyclopedia Editor  Posts: 2969 Location: L.A. |
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Oh, my name was mentioned in that first thead... Is there any way to get translations of these? Also, I'm hoping this arguement with 2chan doesn't get any worse... Isn't the main problem they're having is that the Korean in-betweens etc. are getting listed in the credits before the key animators and other Japanese animators who should be credited before them? That's just because the encyclopedia alphabetizes staff... But I really don't think it's right to list them before either. Maybe this should be fixed in the new version coming out? |
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doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 1709 |
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My thanks, too! Jan Scott-Frasier's "Various Positions in the Anime Industry" is nice, but those also help. ^_^ BTW, Excite Japan translates 動画 (douga) as "animation", and 原画 (genga) as "original picture". (Excite Japan gives a nice contrast to Google and Babel Fish (which give about the same results) when translating a page, but is best used in conjunction with one of the other two, as each has its strengths and weaknesses.) |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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Ahh, that explained just about everything and solved my long-time question.  Thanks.
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Milk
Posts: 32 Location: East |
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Thank you dormcat, I appreciate your visiting 2ch and explained about yourself that why you made such comments here. Actually they applaud your courage to visit there and you really surprised them.
There are many reasons why 2channelers- Japanese otakus- are so particular about Anime sutaff lists but it's not suitable to explain it here. Well, since you had such an ability to read Japanese I guess you have already known about it. I want you to ignore those 2channelers who have bad mouths. They are like that to other 2channelers too. They often argue each other anyway. |
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Milk
Posts: 32 Location: East |
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I just wonder how is everything going? I have tryed to make things straight but it's bit dfficult now. Unless ANN fix the wrong staff lists they can not easily be convinced. They just want to know that if ANN is really intend to fix the wrong lists or not.
I know it was not ANN's fault but the company which translated the DVDs - I told 2channellers already -but they are not easily convinced and now asking that if the DVD companies have really made such mistakes-they don't believe it - they want to know which companies DVDs' have had such wrong lists. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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I've added four out of five titles missing chief animation director(s) mentioned in the 2ch thread. Black Lagoon is a special case that might require some system tweaking and can take much longer. Separating key and in-between animators will start tomorrow, as I'm having a bad cold for the past two days... 
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