Forum - View topicThe Animation of Japanimation
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Adam Kadmon
 Posts: 20 |
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Ahoy hoy all
There exists in this world a mystery which i have been wrestling with for an uncertain amount of time. It's the type of mystery that if unsolved, will fester and grow. If i do not soon see it's solution, reach out and catch, it could quite possibly blind my mind's eye and render it a pauper in a land rich with reason and intellect. This is my tragedy, my pathos if you like. We are all privy to the "inequality of quality" animation in many an anime series. Many of you will be able to unsheath a childhood memory, perhaps a fleeting one, of making a strange face at the face of your TV set because "hey wait a minute, goku looks a little....off or sumfin" or "wow whats up with vegetas hair this episode, its just.....i dunno, off or sumfin" sound familiar? Lets examine a recent example. Naruto 'ninja springs' to mind. The animation irregularities in this show are as readily availiable as the 5-a-minute flahback sequences. And it is such a massive series. How about Bleach anyone? Or Gundam wing and the numerous recycling of frames in key scenes? (again both big shows with a huge fandom) At times even the artwork is at a level where some may look away, red-faced in embaressment. Big shows, huge success, Why? Now i can point and name many more examples but i want to keep this as abridged as possible. All of the titles i mentioned are highly successful series and so therefore lend further credence to this perplexing truism. I do have an idea of the many external and internal factors that can limit, hinder and darn right obliterate decent animation quality (budget cuts, changing animation studios, money saving, limited talent etc) However, as legendary as anime is in japan i would have thought these inconsistencies would be a thing of the past. I take a look at top american cartoons and despite the content, whether it be weak or strong, despite it's target audience, despite the subject matter in all its (probably) undermining glory, i consistently find consistency in the standard of animation, i find most if not all, as smooth as rich and as lush as it was intended to be. What is the reason for this mystery of mysteries? I can think of only two possibilites. 1) US cartoons are better funded because money grows on trees. 2) the irregularities in most japanimation is a cunning device in order to 'allow' us to better appreciate the 'high budget' episode extravaganzas. (exhibit A: gaara vs rock lee fight in the prelims) Any other ideas? Last edited by Adam Kadmon on Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DragonsRevenge
 Posts: 1150 |
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Japan holds 2D animation in higher regard nowadays then the US does. If you honestly think Billy and Mandy or the Fairly Odd Parents are the epitomony of Animation quality over say.... Fullmetal Alchemist or Elfen Lied, then you've got issues.
American cartoons cut corners worse (I know what you mean, it was a bit more prevalant in older shows; especially Magical girl shows and Sentai- power rangers, etc) nowadays. They're so cheap and ugly. The ones of any "real quality" (and I use that loosely) would be Teen Titans or Ben 10, and they rip off japanese animation. 2D movies are rare commodities now, and are really just Disney direct to DVD sequels. A good 2D american film hasn't been seen since the Emperor's New Groove. So yeah, if you really think American animation is better than Japanese Animation you probably need to look closer. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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1) I dont think american cartoons are neccissarily free of error.
2) American cartoons are much simpler animation. Therfore there is less likelyhood of error. This also means errors are easier to fix. 3) American cartoons are shorter in terms of # of episodes. (At least compared t most of the series you mentioned ) Again, less to animate, less chance of error. |
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Adam Kadmon
Posts: 20 |
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Oh a marginal misunderstanding i presume. Naruto on a good day has better animation than anything produced in the US, i can say the same for Dragonball GT even, (albeit via many wasted hours scouring through painful muck).
The bone of contention is the consistency of the animation. I thought is was attributed to the length of a series, but Avatar the last airbender is a lengthy series and not once have i seen contrasting art to the extent that i have seen in some anime series. Whether japanimation is better than US cartoons is quite frankly, besides the point my man. The answer to which, again quite frankly, is so obvious that the word "obvious" was created for its very use in this thread. Thats how obvious. |
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Amasa
 Posts: 340 Location: Japan |
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Does it matter if a series doesn't have top notch graphics? I hate it when anime reviews have a section for "Animation" implying that if the series or film had bad animation it would make it less rewarding to the viewer. While you haven't solidly put down japanimation for having some popular series with 'bad quality' it doesn't make sense to me to even contemplate the idea of "budget over content". Even if Naruto is very popular, there's no chance that they'd spend the amount of money (which = time in animation) made to make Spirited Away for every episode, simply because the viewers want action and drama and romance or comedy. Naruto viewers aren't looking for the best animation, similarly they're not pointing out the mistakes or weaknesses in the animation either. Sure it helps to have a nice looking and consistent anime but if fans are going to think anything less of a series because it had less money to spend then they're watching anime for very wrong reasons. For example it infuriates me when people whine about the last two episode of Neon Genesis Evangelion as being simple scribbles with color. As if it makes a difference!!!!
Anyway if US cartoons "are better funded because money grows on trees" then why does nearly all anime have startlingly detailed landscapes and backgrounds when american cartoons just have a tree with a fluorescent green cloud on top of it for leaves. I'm not too sure if I read you correctly and you are actually comparing Japanese anime to American children's cartoons where the target audience are people under the age of 12, and you're trying to say that the animation quality for those shows is much better. Sorry I didn't completely answer your question. |
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Ramadahl
Posts: 325 Location: MK, UK |
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I think it would make it less rewarding - like it or not, the animation is a significant part. It's not like the story for an anime is laid out and the animation is thrown in to make people happy - the animation is an intrinsic part of telling the story. Thus, if the animation sucks, the story itself will suffer somewhat. That said, excellent graphics can't make up for a terrible story, and vice versa. |
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DragonsRevenge
Posts: 1150 |
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Right. Can you imagine some deep long winded story being told with a bunch of squiggly stick figures that move at like 4 frames a second? |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Ummmm .... no. When you start saying "anything" you're painting with a pretty broad brush and most animation in the US are feature films, albeit aimed at kids. Most television shows in the US are actually done in Korea, not surprisingly a lot of anime is done there as well. Even so I wouldn't go so far to say as Naruto is still better, from what I've seen of Naruto it's actually pretty substandard. Regardless, I'd be careful of where you start using terms like "anything". It's actually quite obvious that anime in general is not better, it varies from case to case but when you look at what each side has produced it's obvious they're both more than capable, Japan just has way more. Regarding the "money grows on tree's in the US", that's obviously not true. Matter of fact, it's way more expensive to produce an animated show or movie here than in Japan. So even if the US has more money, which is arguable since the animation industry is much larger in Japan, it costs far more to produce in the US so that is offset.
Likewise if you think otherwise, there's a lot of animation out there, just because it's not on television or on the big screen doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If anything anime fans should be more understanding of this situations since anime was so unknown for so long itself. Oh wait, I forgot however, all US animation is evil to so many anime fans and Japan magically is the only place in this world where animation can be made. Either that or some people need to seriously get some perspective. |
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Amasa
Posts: 340 Location: Japan |
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I couldn't disagree more. That's like saying anime classics with outdated animation are worse than modern anime with better graphics even if the content is lacking. Aesthetic value in anime is important, but to an extent. There has been lots of anime with excellent graphics that I've disliked and thought were horrible trash. Likewise there's been lots of anime with terrible graphics that I've loved. Obviously since it is animation, the animation itself is important but I just don't think that a series should be rated lower because it's budget restrained it from providing groundbreaking graphics. Don't get me wrong, animation style is a completely different subject. I hated the style in Appleseed even if it was good quality, however, the graphics didn't really limit my understanding and appreciation of the film. Place Promised in Our Early Days has fantastic animation quality but I thought the film was pathetic and a waste of time. Likewise Hunter X Hunter didn't have outstanding animation but it's one of my favorite series.
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Adam Kadmon
Posts: 20 |
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Okay maybe my feelings towrads the subject got lost somewhere in translation.
I feel no anger or even disappointment towards the japanese anime studios for the meandering animation quality of their shows. Naruto is an amazing series with deceptively deep content and a lot of character. The topic was created out of curiousity, not really necessity. I take your point that some of these american cartoons have a simplistic artistic approach in comparison to their japanese superiors but that still does not discount the fact that frequently there are some quite glaring differences in artwork and animation quality between episodes in some the the big anime series. (I used naruto because it is a prime example of a popular show that suffers from this) Remember this isn't a topic degrading the quality of the Content of such animes, i am soley concerned with the superficial , shallow and aesthetic side of animated life. 
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DragonsRevenge
Posts: 1150 |
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[quote="Keonyn"]
I knew that was going to happen. When I was thinking that, I shouldnt made it seem like a "US Vs. Japan" thing. Other countries also seem to allow for a much broader range in terms of content and storytelling. But US animation, with VERY few exceptions has either been A) something to push a kids toy, B) an outlet for bathroom humor (South Park, the Ralph Bakishi films back in the 80s), or C) an outlet for violence. US animation really has been stagnating since the late 80's/Early 90s. Look at something like An American Tail, The Secret of Nimh, The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast or the Lion King or farther back with Lady and the Tramp and Bambi. Compare that to now. Is there any hand-drawn animated films of the US that can touch that level of animation, storytelling and character development? American animated series have been even worse lately. I'm not looking through nostalgia-tinted glasses when I say that the quality of Animated series has been crap since the days of Xmen and Gargoyles. They had pretty serious, heavy and serialized plots, strong character development and great animation. You dont see that anymore in the US. Look at Nick Jr! Remember The Mysterious Cities of Gold? Belle and Sebastian? David the Gnome? Hell, Franklin? What do we have in its place- Dora the Explorer? Go Diego Go? What the hell happened? It's really sad. |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Well, that's all up to preference really. I love The Simpsons but I couldn't imagine what it'd be like if it didn't take on the comics art style and took a more realistic approach.
Not in the mainstream, not really anymore. Unfortunately with current costs of production and the perceived notion by studios that animation is for kids only most companies aren't willing to take the risks involved in producing animation. Unfortunately it's going to take a major event with critical success to break the stagnation. However, there's a healthy animation underground that still produces pretty high quality stuff, but no, you'll never see it on Nickelodeon or CN.
I know what you mean, I used to love the Spiderman cartoon from the 90's. Good animation and good voice acting, unfortunately it seems the networks would rather show reruns of old sitcoms and Judge Judy in those after school time slots now. In regards to The Mysterious Cities of Gold though, that was actually an anime itself. Now, there's still something to be said about the comic style prevalent in televised animation, a lot of it is made for kids and kids do enjoy it. My friends daughter loves Dora actually and if it's entertaining her than it's doing it's job. But no, there are no decent alternatives anymore on television or even the big screen, there's just nothing like Batman, Spiderman, X-Men or Gargoyles anymore. Avatar really seems to be the only one right now. Unfortunately we can't even use the inability as an excuse, but rather the lack of desire by those with the money to actually do it. I only contend that the US has the ability and has even done it with more underground animation but I will certainly agree that our mainstream animation is in a pretty bad state right now. That said we still get some good productions here and there, usually on the big screen, but it'll take something big to shake the foundations of the US animation industry before we see the likes of Gargoyles and the like again. |
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Adam Kadmon
Posts: 20 |
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ah see, now you are going too in-depth into the state of american animation culture. It is perfectly acceptable to keep this thread nice and.. un-deep.
The first episode of almost every cartoon/anime series is usually quite high-end with dazzling production values and the like. I'm sure most of you notice this trend. After that there is usually a slight dip in quality until a key scene, pivotal fight and whatnot. Again i'm sure alot of you have realised this. However, these dips seem to be more noticeable in anime than US (for example) cartoons in general. Is it, Is it... because there are more funds availiable in the US, less in japan? is it a stylistic preference for sasuke to look perfectly drawn one episode, terminally disfigured the next? Maybe there is *that* much of a difference between the studios handling naruto? Or maybe it just is *that* much easier to animate samurai jack? Another theory that i constructed in my here noggin' is that alot of the animes are restricted by the manga panels that they almost always originate from. Quite possibly the animators are told to stick to the way the manga has created a scene or suggested a motion that really, their freedom to express themselves are somewhat limited? <que> |
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Ramadahl
Posts: 325 Location: MK, UK |
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Going by the post times and content I'm assuming you're replying to me here? Unfortunately, I didn't say that at all, as the last line in my previous post clearly states. The way I read your previous post was along the lines of "forget about animation, it's all about story content", and so I was pointing out that in a medium like anime both the content and the artwork are important. However, since you wrote: -
End of the day, when comparing two stories with storylines/content of approxiamtely equal quality artwork is the sensible deciding factor. And with so much anime out there, it becomes quite significant. Consider shows like Higurashi and Boogiepop, which are often criticised and rated lower for having poor artwork. And shows like Kanon and Gankutsuou, which have awesome artwork, are often praised for it, and may well get rated higher as a result. The quality of something should take into account all that it is, rather than just one aspect.
Haha, sorry, realised I never responded to your question - got somewhat sidetracked there, don'tchaknow... Firstly, yup, lots of us have noticed inconsistent animation quality at one time or another, and it happens for fairly obvious reasons. As to it being more noticeable in anime? I haven't seen enough comparable western cartoons to comment (no point in comparing Naruto production to 2DTV production for example), but I wouldn't be too surprised if this is the case. Money may well be a factor - hell, it usually is one way or another. Animation production, especially for longer series may be outsourced to the lowest bidder. I guess that maybe competition among the vast number of anime series coming out in Japan may play a part - with so much choice, it seems to me that could make the first episode all the more significant in determining whether or not people watch it. Also, when you're saying it's "more noticeable" among anime it would make sense to consider the relative artwork quality of the two series you're comparing.
It's true that most studios will try to stick to the manga closely, and that includes the way things are drawn in each pannel. I don't think it's entirely correct to deem that a restriction though - most manga I've read tends to flow in such a way that any movement seems implicit enough to be animated without any difficulty. EDIT: - spelling, formatting, reply, reply... |
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hiddenryuu
Posts: 25 |
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Let me try to answer this as an animation student.
American cartoons follow (well used to follow) very specific rules to animation, not so much anymore (not too sure why) but I can suppose it is because budget cuts. Japanese anime each frame is drawn really well, however animation wise, it does not follow the traditional rules of animation, in fact , some animators would even consider it "limited animation". However, this due to lower budget and needed to pump out larger quantities in a very short amount of time. The inconsistancys you see in animation is probably due to in betweens done by interns. Key frame animators are usually been in the business quite awhile, but they just hand the inbetweens to interns so they don't need to spend that much. One point worth noting though, is usually people compare TV anime to Disney, which I don't feel is really fair, Disney gets so much budget for they're animation, it's ridicoulous. However, if you look at a few anime movies (especially Miayazaki) the animation is pretty nice. |
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