Forum - View topicOEL Manga
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smoochy
 Posts: 367 Location: Texas |
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I've been hearing this term used quite a bit, and it's bothering me quite a bit. Manga is japanese comics created for by a japanese creator, published by a japanese company, for a japanese consumer.
I honestly think the reason we call them manga is because, "comic books," aren't cool anymore, and don't sell. Manga has become a magic word to refer to all sequential art, and it bothers me. If we use manga as such a nebulous term, then it loses it signifigance and specific meaning. |
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Drowning_Wolf
Posts: 193 |
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In my opinion, I think they're not called comic books because of their format and the fact that the art style is influenced by japanese manga. Other than that, I think comic books are still cool (but I am not saying they sell, I really don't know) and that maybe manga's meaning will one day change, a lot of meaning changed with time. That just my way of seeing things.
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smoochy
Posts: 367 Location: Texas |
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[quote="Drowning_Wolf"]In my opinion, I think they're not called comic books because of their format and the fact that the art style is influenced by japanese manga. Other than that, I think comic books are still cool (but I am not saying they sell, I really don't know) and that maybe manga's meaning will one day change, a lot of meaning changed with time. That just my way of seeing things.[/quote]
But thats putting manga as well as American comics in a box. Art style is influenced by manga? Sure, there are conventions used in popular manga, but manga can have any look it wants, and still be manga. |
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Drowning_Wolf
Posts: 193 |
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Well, you're right, their is a lot of different graphic style used in manga, but I personnally never seen any of those looks in comic books, neither have I seen comics book's in manga. Their might be some that are similar, but they're unknown to me. Ps: I must specify that I don't necesserly want those OEL manga to be call like this, but I do think they shouldn't be called comic books. |
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JoshuaStChristopher
 Posts: 351 |
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Who cares? Is OEL manga somehow hurting your sacred Japanese comics?
Where are you getting these sales figures from? Last I checked, comic books were selling better than they have in recent years, and are really good.
No, it hasn't. You show manga to most people and they'll call it a comic book. Because it is. I have yet to see someone pick up a Superman comic and say, "Oh look the new Superman manga is out!" |
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Kagemusha
 Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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But the term really doesn't have any significance: it's just Japanese for "comic." Like you mentioned before, the reason why they're calling it OEL or Global Manga or whatever is because they're targeting an audience who largely ignores American comics. Same thing Darkhorse and Viz used to do when they marketed things as "Japanese comics." I think it's pretty silly and basically highlights how hung up people are on labels, but I don't really have a problem with a company using the term to sell a product. On the other hand, some people do seem to associate the word manga with a specific style, which leads to the idea that there are an underlying set of traits that all manga's posses (I don't think I need to elaborate on why this is wrong). |
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Cyborg 009
 Posts: 214 |
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Here we go:
1. There have been set differences that are confirmed by Tokyopop and other manga publishers of what determines whether something is manga or not. 2. A comic book series lasts through decades usually, and has many different artists and writers. The rigths to the comic and its material then belong to the publisher. They are released monthly in small, thin issues. According to book awards and bestseller lists, it is not eligible. 3. OEL Manga, unlike comics, can be in bestseller lists, and win book awards. All rights belong to the artist, and if the writer decides to stop, another artist cannot take over unless appointed by the original author. They are released in thick volumes, with less restraining time limits. Never call OEL Manga "a comic book" again. It's like mistaking a jaguar for a leopard. They may look the similar, but there are many differences. |
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Dranxis
 Posts: 591 Location: Ohtori Academy |
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Err, they're all stories told through sequential art, just with different formats or some cultural differences. A comic, whether it come in the form of a comic strip, a graphic novel, a monthly pamphlet or a story within an anthology magazine, will have the same basic principles and storytelling methods that all comics share. Honestly I aspire to become a graphic novelist in the future, and I'd hate for my work to be called an "OEL manga" as a marketing gimmic for the sake of setting it apart from the works of my fellow American artists. It's a comic book people, and save for connotational differences a rose is still a rose by any other name.
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Kagemusha
Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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When he said "comicbooks don't sell," I'm assuming he meant that they don't sell amoung manga readers (which is correct for the vast majority of people who buy manga).Yeah they're selling better that a couple years ago, but that isn't saying much. As for the overall quality of the mainstream industry, that's subjective, but personally I don't want to read yet another "SUPER ULTRA MEGASERIES THAT WILL CHANGE THE DC/MARVEL UNIVERSE FOREVER!!!!" that makes you buy fifty diffrent crossovers to understand the conveluted storyline or an edgy superhero book that gets its "maturity" from pointless supervillain rape. |
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zliplus
Posts: 27 Location: St. Jerome's, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada |
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Can you clarify this please? Do the rights belong to the artist, the writer, or both? Why would another artist take over if it's the writer that stopped? What do you mean precisely by the original "author"? |
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Seyl
Posts: 23 |
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I'm sure I'll be making comments here that many don't agree with, and will likely fall on deaf ears (blind eyes) but here goes anyways.
Most of the arguments and claims about specific traits about manga or comics to make one different then the other are true about both. Between comics and manga, there are more similarities between the two forms, then between only comics or only manga. I see a lot of people dislike comics because of the superhero comics, which I tend to dislike as well, but they are missing a chance to read some great stories with amazing art if they ignore US comics altogether. The same goes for any comic reader that refuses to read manga. Cyborg 009, most of your arguments about OEL manga are extended to them because of their association with manga and who publishes them, not on their own merits.
The set differences confirmed by TP and other manga publishers is partially in place to specifically allow them to produce their own comics under the name of "manga" in order to appeal to the fans of manga who would refuse to read it if it was called "comics" which they are. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, the idea behind OEL manga is a decent one, it's mainly the execution that I believe needs to be developed more.
Comic books lasting through several decades can definately be true... thinking of superhero comics here and likely you are too, the same can be said for some manga (though the superhero comics have lasted in their various reincarnations for a longer time then almost all manga I believe). There are in fact many of the comics that are not multiple decade long series, just like many manga. Many different artsists and writers do happen, but I've seen that mostly in superhero comics. Some of my favorite comics have never had an artist or author change, does this mean it one of these won't change, not at all, it could easily. When the story author is different then the artist should the story author stop the tale when it's not completely because the artists leaves for any number of reasons? The change in artist, or author, can be beneficial or detrimental to a series, there is no absolute. It must be judged on a case by case basis. One thing I think people who buy US editions of manga tend to forget is that originally most of these works were serialized in short chapter form, much like US comics, only these chapters are in a magazine versus it's own stand alone floppy. While I don't keep up with the magazines in Japan, I believe some are weekly, some bi-monthly, and some monthly. There are comics that come out weekly (this is rare, and usually requires much of the work to be done prior to the frist printing of the first week so that they're ahead already, which is a gamble on the publishers part that it will sell well), bi-monthly, and many monthly. I'll leave the copyright issue alone, a lot of the superhero comics and others are owned by the publisher, but I'm fairly sure there are a good number owned by the creator of said series. In general copyright issues are sticky subjects in any form. There is a distinct difference between how Japanese comics and US comics developed, and unarguably the Japanese comics have become more accepted in Japan then US comics have here. The US caused it's own stagnation through the decades of basically having only superhero comics. Another very distinct difference between US and Japanese comics is that the majority (most definately not all) US comics are in color, which is part of where so many different creators and time come in, from author, penciler, inkist, colorist, etc. In contrast, Japanese comics have remained mostly in black and white, usually done by one maybe two creators, possibly with help from assistants; from the authors comments, for good number of the works that have made it to the US they do indeed have assistants who help them with their work, and others do not, it's a personal choice of the creator. This detail is arguably part of what makes manga more readily available and easier to produce. But don't discount the effect color has on comics in general. I personally love seeing the artwork in color from the creators, I'd guess this is part of the reason why artbooks for a given series or creator are so popular in Japan.
As for comics not winning book awards, in some cases it's after one has won such an award that the rules change which don't allow for one to win again. In other awards it hasn't come up yet and no such rule exists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen an OEL manga win a book award. As for manga being able to get onto bestseller lists, this part is speculation here, but it seems to be more due to both the manga publishers and the format in which manga is released here. Almost every manga is released in a compilation form, ie book form, in the US. There are a few exceptions; Ghost in the Shell, Blade of the Immortal, are some of those released in single issue and book form. The Viz magazines are also released in book form after appearing in their respective magazines. Until recently comic publishers did not release very many compilations, which hurt not only their sales but general knowledge of a series. Who really wants to start Superman on issue 350 when it costs thousands of dollars or more if you want the back story, I don't. Publishers, TokyoPop especially, made a point of making sure their manga was available inside of bookstores, something which comic publishers never did, and even now don't really push for. As for OEL manga being released in thick volumes with less time restraints, 6-12 months between releases is not necessarily a benefit. With the number of "true" manga, which is what OEL manga is competing with, being released here it is more likely detrimental. It's one of the reasons why people dislike TP, their release schedule for a good number titles are way too long. People lose interest in the titles. As much as I prefer compilation form for comics, I like reading a good portion of any series at once, the serialized form of comics keeps people interested. Even though I personally tend to pile up a comic until I have a few issues to read, when I see a new issue of it every few weeks it reminds me that it's there and I want to read it. This is likely true in Japan as well. OEL manga is missing that continual tag of interest completely with it's target audience, unless it's an OEL that is also available on the web. Snobs of a type of media exist everywhere, whether it's manga, comics, or prose novels, or any other form of media (movies, music, theater, opera, etc). In the US, sequential art of any type really has been considered to be pure entertainment with no redeeming qualities. Only recently, and yes this is in good portion due to manga's popularity, has this view been questioned in the more "literate" communities, especially ones concerned about children reading. Manga's popularity though, is partially due, arguably largely due, to it's availability in bookstores. As for OEL manga specifically, I haven't been impressed with much of what's come out. But then again, most of their story premises haven't been of interest to me, so I tend to ignore them. I'm not going to not buy one because it's a US author, just like I won't not pick up a comic because it is a comic, or a manwha because it isn't Japanese in origin. The story and art are more important to me then where it comes from. The name OEL manga is one I'm not fond of personally, because, at least currently, it's limiting OEL manga to what people in the US believe manga is. And that's almost completely shounen and shoujo type stories. It also forces it to be compared to the manga we see on our shelves, which tends to be the "better" or more popular titles in their subgenres. There isn't enough OEL manga currently to be compared only to others of it's type, and due to how its advertised currently it never will be compared only to others of its origin. In the end, I believe OEL manga is hampered because of their format. Like many have said about quite a few TP and some Viz manga, the time between releases is too long. Yes, they have to have time to do all of the story boards, art, edits, revisions, etc, but by the time the next book is released it's hard to care. Like I said earlier, the idea behind OEL manga isn't a bad one, but some changes need to occur. It is still in development, and has a great possibility of flying on it's own without needing to hold onto the idea of manga as it's crutch. As for manga being considered as a blanket term for sequential art.. I've never heard that, not once. I can see that happening, perhaps, by individuals when people who were only introduced to manga, never comics or other forms of sequential art outside of the cartoons in the newspaper, are finally introduced to "comics" from the US. This is the same thing that occured when manga was first introduced, it was called comics or graphic novels until TokyoPop's "revolution". I doubt manga will ever be a nebulous term to describe sequential art... the term sequential art isn't even considered a nebulous term for comics, graphic novels, mangas, cartoons, etc in most places. That was much more then I meant to write. Kudos to those who actually finish it! |
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KyuuA4
 Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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They're OEL Manga - because they LOOK like manga. Published like manga. Has manga-type stories. And are sold NEXT to manga - in bookstores. |
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Cyborg 009
Posts: 214 |
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Let me clarify a bit more:
In case you were confused, unlike comic books, all manga usually have just one writer/artist. Just one person. There are cases, such as Aoi House in which there is an artist and a writer being two different people, but they equally share the rights. I also believe Aoi House (Seven Seas) was eligible for an award, but did not. Correct me if I am wrong. With the exception of a few (meaning one or two), manga follow a strict storyline, while comics usually have multiple plots. Im not talking about story arcs, which are common in manga. The only exception to this that I know of is Crayon Shin-chan the manga. Basically, comics and OELs are similar in the fact that they are made in English, but not in the fact of their format. What separates the two is their substance, creation, distribution, and plot. Seven Seas makes OELs in traditional Japanese format. |
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Seyl
Posts: 23 |
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It appears you took offense to my post, figured someone would.
No, I'm not confused. I know how many creators there usually are for manga, one or two, usually. . You came up with one OEL with 2 creators, let me give you a few more: From TP; Afterlife , A new one called Divalicious, Earthlight, Grand Theft Galaxy; From Seven Seas: Amazing Agent Luna, Captain Nemo. Do I need to continue my point that they can have more then one creator? As for them being treated equally, that has more to do with how the publishing companies choose to deal with them. If you mean to compare that with comics having more then one or two creators, or changing creators, perhaps you should have picked your example better. Aoi House actually changed it's illustrator for it's Seven Seas releases. Is this typical no, that is one distinction between some comic subgenres and manga/OEL manga. It's great that Aoi House was up for an award, whether or not it received the award it still gets that much more attention for OEL manga. I am curious as to which award this is, though, I've seen nominations for it's theme song for it's webcomic, but not for it as a OEL manga. Just about every comic I've read follows a strict story line, story arcs to break the tale up. I will freely admit to not reading superhero comics, and those from what little I know do jump all over the place, and from the sounds of it that's what you're using as your standard of comics... in which case you are both correct, regarding superhero comics, and incorrect, regarding others. Are they in the exact same vein as how a manga does it? No can't argue with you there, manga does have distinct presentation. As for multiple plot lines, the manga officially published in the US don't tend to have more then one overriding plotline, but there are others that do. But what we see is mostly considered Young Adult manga, not the ones written specifically for adults. In comparison, young adult novels also tend to have a single major plot with few underlying subplots as well. OEL substance should be as diverse as any manga or comic substance, which all across the board on every front. OEL creation is more similar to manga creation then general comic creation, yes. Distribution is also one where it has things in common with both manga and comics, though again it is similar to manga mainly due to the efforts of publishers of manga making sure bookstores will carry their product, however it's still lacking something both comics and manga have, a periodical type form, which makes it quite different from either still. Plot... I've seen plenty of comics with one overriding plot, with only story arcs subplots.. and manga with multple main plots, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Seaven Seas does offer some of it's manga in more of a chapter by chapter format being available online, they might even emulate the practices of Japanese creators and publishers, but that does not make it "traditional Japanese format", it makes it similar to that format and style because they choose for it to be that way. Yes, I find OEL manga to be more similar to manga then comics because it is designed to be so, but the differences between these sequential art genres are minor when compared to each other, then the differences manga when compared only with other manga, or US comics when compared only to US comics. Hopefully OEL will fit right in with this, right now, because there isn't a lot of what is considered OEL manga, it's rather uniform in content then the others, but I hope for more. I like the idea of OEL manga, because it opens up a new field for comic creation in the US, and elsewhere, a field that isn't the major publishers of superhero comics, publishers of alternative comics or the small indie comics where you can't be sure you'll ever be able to finish your series. I'm hoping OEL manga can find a spot of its own, just like independent comics have, a place that doesn't require it to be compared to manga for it to be legitimate. Again I believe the term OEL manga limits what it can do because of our (US audience) perceptions of what manga is, due partially to what we see mainly published here, but as OEL matures I hope it will be better. |
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Seyl
Posts: 23 |
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It appears you took offense to my post, figured someone would.
No, I'm not confused. I know how many creators there usually are for manga, one or two, usually. . You came up with one OEL with 2 creators, let me give you a few more: From TP; Afterlife , A new one called Divalicious, Earthlight, Grand Theft Galaxy; From Seven Seas: Amazing Agent Luna, Captain Nemo. Do I need to continue my point that they can have more then one creator? As for them being treated equally, that has more to do with how the publishing companies choose to deal with them. If you mean to compare that with comics having more then one or two creators, or changing creators, perhaps you should have picked your example better. Aoi House actually changed it's illustrator for it's Seven Seas releases. Is this typical no, that is one distinction between some comic subgenres and manga/OEL manga. It's great that Aoi House was up for an award, whether or not it received the award it still gets that much more attention for OEL manga. I am curious as to which award this is, though, I've seen nominations for it's theme song for it's webcomic, but not for it as a OEL manga. Just about every comic I've read follows a strict story line, story arcs to break the tale up. I will freely admit to not reading superhero comics, and those from what little I know do jump all over the place, and from the sounds of it that's what you're using as your standard of comics... in which case you are both correct, regarding superhero comics, and incorrect, regarding others. Are they in the exact same vein as how a manga does it? No can't argue with you there, manga does have distinct presentation. As for multiple plot lines, the manga officially published in the US don't tend to have more then one overriding plotline, but there are others that do. But what we see is mostly considered Young Adult manga, not the ones written specifically for adults. In comparison, young adult novels also tend to have a single major plot with few underlying subplots as well. OEL substance should be as diverse as any manga or comic substance, which all across the board on every front. OEL creation is more similar to manga creation then general comic creation, yes. Distribution is also one where it has things in common with both manga and comics, though again it is similar to manga mainly due to the efforts of publishers of manga making sure bookstores will carry their product, however it's still lacking something both comics and manga have, a periodical type form, which makes it quite different from either still. Plot... I've seen plenty of comics with one overriding plot, with only story arcs subplots.. and manga with multple main plots, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Seaven Seas does offer some of it's manga in more of a chapter by chapter format being available online, they might even emulate the practices of Japanese creators and publishers, but that does not make it "traditional Japanese format", it makes it similar to that format and style because they choose for it to be that way. Yes, I find OEL manga to be more similar to manga then comics because it is designed to be so, but the differences between these sequential art genres are minor when compared to each other, then the differences manga when compared only with other manga, or US comics when compared only to US comics. Hopefully OEL will fit right in with this, right now, because there isn't a lot of what is considered OEL manga, it's rather uniform in content then the others, but I hope for more. I like the idea of OEL manga, because it opens up a new field for comic creation in the US, and elsewhere, a field that isn't the major publishers of superhero comics, publishers of alternative comics or the small indie comics where you can't be sure you'll ever be able to finish your series. I'm hoping OEL manga can find a spot of its own, just like independent comics have, a place that doesn't require it to be compared to manga for it to be legitimate. Again I believe the term OEL manga limits what it can do because of our (US audience) perceptions of what manga is, due partially to what we see mainly published here, but as OEL matures I hope it will be better. |
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