Forum - View topic[OT] Language as Culture
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Azathrael
 Posts: 745 |
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No, language IS a culture because using it includes all its biases and prejudices that are inherent within the culture. The setting of a particular anime series may not be based on Japanese culture, but nevertheless all the language (such as visual and audio language) is Japanese. Anything ever shown on anime is a Japanese perspective and presented in Japanese language. Does that mean a language has no "right" to venture to explain foreign cultures? Do I even need to answer that? As for the differences between two languages, you're completely mistaken and uninformed. Some very simple examples. There are approximately 20 or so different ways to write the word "sword" in Chinese. There's one for English. A Chinese proverb can be as simple as 4 characters, which takes sentences to explain in English. There are expressions in one language that cannot be literally translated because no word exists; describing the word loses meaning in the process and like any other translation, could end up meaning something else. But I doubt saying this will make you understand anything unless you know two languages to compare with each other. Because no subtitle I've ever seen presented exactly what the Japanese language meant to express, word for word and meaning for meaning. Think how much you'd miss out when the entire language is replaced by English. Looks like your World Culture Class professor needs to take my professor's classes for some in-depth lessons on what culture is. Or maybe learn Japanese history in a cultural perspective to see how huge language was a factor in shaping Japan to what it is today before teaching about "world" cultures. /Hello Keonyn. Oh wait, where's the -san? Or maybe I should call you -kun. |
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TcDohl
 Posts: 82 |
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I've had scraps with Az before, but I'll say that I agree with him. The Japanese language is rife with ambiguities and biases that encourage the social order in Japan. For example, there is no Japanese word for self-esteem, nor do they have any word close to it (the closest word I've seen in a scholarly document is "dignity"). This means that people aren't supposed to have a favorable impression of themselves and question what is wrong with themselves rather than what is wrong with their situation. Japanese society dictates that you must fit your surroundings for others' benefit rather than making changes for your own. Another example of this is the word "自由", "jiyuu", or "freedom". In the English language, "freedom" is an entirely positive word. In the Japanese language, it is rather ambiguous, as people are supposed to be part of a group, and therefore, "being free" is something done despite the wishes of a group. This is what people that don't know much about translating from one language to another. Other languages are full of cultural and societal biases that does not translate very well in another language. That's why I tend to stay out of debates about subs vs. dubs, because they're both being translated into the same language, which is the main problem. (Though my position on that is that since they're equally flawed, why not have a balance of watching between the two media? But please, don't let this opinion start a flame/sub v dub war) |
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Randall Miyashiro
 Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
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There are so many Japanese words meaning endure, restrain or hanging in there. You can hear shikari, gaman, and ganbate on a regular basis in Japanese. I don't even know how to translate enryo. The concept almost seems alien to Western culture where hosts can get offended if you don't indulge in the offered hospitality. I don't think I would be out of place to say culturally Japan is more reserved and passive than most Western cultures. There are so many ways to say I'm sorry or excuse me too.
My other favorite word is shizumu which is often mistranslated as destroy. A friend pointed out that the word sinking has such a stronger connotation in the UK (this is a sinking relation) than in the US because of it's seafaring roots. I laughed since it is the same in Japan. Many SF shows often refer to spaceships "sinking." I was impressed that Bandai's recent Gundam Seed has retained this correct translation of the word. I might come back to this thread if I have time tonight, after I close the bar, but need to get ready for work. |
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selenta
 Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Actually, I think the best example of how words simply can not always be translated is the word 'love' into Greek.
There are four greek words for love, all with completely different meanings, none of which are foreign to anyone. Eros - passionate, romantic, sensual love Philia - used to describe deep friendships, family, love for an activity Agape - a rational love that is not based on total self-interest Storge - affection for one's offspring Each of these has its own obvious purpose and English being limited to only one word: "Love" leads to endless debate and arguments over which true meaning of the word is intended each time it is used. Some things can not simply be translated easily and succinctly (succinctly being the important one in anime, as one word often needs to be translated into one word), not because the concepts don't exist (though this is also often a problem), but because the languages simply do not match up. EDIT: oh yeah, check out the wiki for more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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I feel like this is somehow the second half of a discussion that was already occuring.... What exactly is being argued about here? That language is an impermeable barrier between cultures vs. languge is only a minor hassle in the process of understanding each other? I'm looking at the original quote, but I feel like I'm missing some context...
Everyone posting is discussing the nuances of language, and how language is embedded in culture and place and the nuances of local history. I totally agree with that. I know Russian (ha, or did at one point), so I feel I can join in with some level of honesty about translating and comparing languages. Besides which, one only has to look at English closely to understand how phrasal it's meanings are-- it's very hard to translate much verbatim from English, as many thing just don't make sense unless you know how to decode the phrase. Still, I look at the first post by Keonyn, and felt like what was being said largely makes sense as well-- nuances shift between languages and cultures, but people really are largely the same all over the world (IMO anyways). Translating the gist of what is being expressed is very possible and happens all the time. Is something lost in the process? Sure, but not the totality of the thing. I guess I'm just curious what people are actually arguing about-- what are the perspectives here? Or is this just a great opportunity for people to talk about the difficulties of translation? (which is a-ok with me) 
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ManOfRust
 Posts: 1935 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I was actually having the same thought as I read through this thread. Is this just an observation on language and culture or is there a specific point people are trying to make? In reading the OP's comments I started getting a vague sense that he or she was heading in the direction that anyone who can't understand the original Japanese is by definition getting a lesser experience from watching anime than someone who can watch and understand it in Japanese, but I am not at all sure that was the intent and I may well be reading way too much into it. I'm not even sure there was an intent to tie this specifically back to anime, although it is certainly relevant since most of us are not going to learn Japanese just so we can watch anime in its original language. Even if someone did do that, while the experience of studying the language would surely give them a better understanding of the culture, learning a language is not a magic decoder for another society's culture so there would still be things (even in anime) that are going to be missed by a non native viewer. Conversely, a non-Japanese person may well enjoy an anime for reasons that might be lost on a Japanese native. He or she may like it for reasons not specifically intended by the creators, or may read different things into the plot, or may even enjoy the fact that it specifically is something different than their own culture would have produced. I'm not sure if that necessarily means they are missing out. It's just a different experience. Anime is, after all, just a form of entertainment, so as long as people are enjoying it I don't see much point in having a "my experience was deeper than yours" kind of argument. As someone who has studied a couple of languages other than my native one, I too find the differences and the similarities between them to be fascinating. As several people have mentioned, the development of language is very much shaped by culture, geography, history, and many other factors, just as aspects of the language feed back into the culture. Language is one way for people to communicate with each other, so it is obviously going to be deeply tied to how those people perceive the world around them, and that world view is going to be deeply influenced by culture. On a completely non-serious note, I'd like to risk the perils inherent in translation:
...sounds to me a bit like, "my professor could beat up your professor, so neener neener neener!" 
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