Forum - View topicA question about Japanese translation.
|
|
| Author | Message | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
|
|||
|
I think there was a prior thread on this but I can't find it.
How do the translators make the choice of converting the word "Hai" to either "yes," "yes, sir," "yes, ma'am," or "right" or "right away"? I think it gets translated into other phrases as well, but on the Japanese track it is always "Hai." Is it fully context driven or is there an inflection to the language I can't hear? The textbooks say that Japanese generally stresses all syllables equally. |
||||
|
||||
Skylark
 Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
|
|||
|
Nearly all Japanese is context related - it is for this reason that the language requires kanji. If you are reading Japanese with no visual stimulus, certain phrases can be read in many many ways (each kanji even can have many readings) and as such it is really confusing to read without kanji to dictate exactly which "word" the phrase refers to.
Now transfer that to spoken Japanese. Each phrase can have different meanings, and you can have many phrases that mean the same thing. Without kanji to describe exactly what is being referred to, either visual stimulus or context is necessary to pinpoint the topic of conversation. Take the word "kanojou" for example. It can mean one's girlfriend, or it could be a person talking about a girl who is not present. Or the girl could be present, but is not being spoken directly to. It all depends on context. It's the same thing. "Hai" can even mean "no", because of the way Japanese negate things. Like if one person said "Is that not how it is done", in english you would say "no" but in Japanese they would say "Hai", meaning "No" or more literally "Yes that is not how it is done". Does that help? |
||||
|
||||
Mister V
 Posts: 1000 |
|
|||
|
I would add that in speech, depending on intonation, "hai" can have more nuances (reluctant agreement, hesitation, even dismissal, that you can spot in anime sometimes). But otherwise, like Skylark said, it's all in the context.
There's other methods of epressing your acknowledgement; and sometimes you have the "ha" (which is not just a lazy version of "hai" or something). (by the way, not to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure that's a "jo", not a long "jou") |
||||
|
||||
|
Skylark
Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
|
|||
Yeah, I wrote it in a rush. I still get tripped up by Kanojo or 彼女 as opposed to, say, ojousama or お嬢様 which is princess. It confuses me because 嬢 (jou) means something like "Miss" but is different to 女 (jo) as in "woman". Such a damn confusing language, especially when you start trying to read stuff out loud and get the readings right. |
||||
|
||||
HyugaHinata
 Posts: 3505 |
|
|||
Indeed. Unlike English, where an answer repeats itself, `Hai` or `iie` mean `true` or `false` in response to the question. This should help: Translation Guidelines - The ultimate goal is a natural, cohesive English translation that is easy to follow. As such, the peculiarities of both languages must be taken into account. - A perfectly bilingual individual would tell you that almost everything can be translated perfectly between languages. Literal translations rarely work in all cases, and the hidden meaning must be understood by the translator. This doesn�t mean that the implicit meaning has to be spelled out for the audience every time � that would be silly, and insulting to the viewer. - In cases where the perfect translation is not known, there is still a best translation based on the context and the available information. - The following tips may not work for you. I encourage everyone to try and find the method that works best for them. This ideal method may also change as you mature and develop as a translator. - I also strongly encourage anyone to add their own suggestions to this list in another colour. - Empathy is a key component required to connect with characters and the original creator�s intent . - Listen to an episode on endless repeat in the background and do something (such as Chessmaster or just surfing online) to relax. By the time you get to the actual translating, you�ll know most of the context. - My preferred method of translating is to use scripts and subtitles as a last resort. Subtitles from a DVD are easy for me � it eliminates all ambiguity. - Find the most comprehensive dictionary and thesaurus you can. In both languages if possible. - Jot down the romaji. Even if you don�t pick up the entire line at once, it should still help considerably. - Even the best translators will mishear a line now and then. This could be due to long vowel sounds in Japanese, and how each word is akin to a musical bar (with no changes to the tempo during the word). Some names will be spelled incorrectly in the Japanese scripts . - The right and left brains must work together. My method entails using my right brain when I know exactly what the characters are talking about, and when there�s no new vocabulary. In other cases, I�ll jot down the romaji and look up the words before adapting it. - Even without the script or the romaji, you can pinpoint a line based entirely on the context in some cases � sometimes, there is just nothing else a line could mean in a given context. - Sometimes the best translation requires switching the word order. English and Japanese grammar are like night and day. - Translating, like anything else, is best tackled when you are in the right mood for it. Yes, The Sims had it right! Endorphins increase productivity. The only side effect I�ve noticed is that you might be distracted by happy thoughts unrelated to the task at hand, but it�s still much more productive than slogging through something when you don�t want to. If you try to sleep if your biological clock�s out of whack, you�ll just make things worse. - There�s no shame in coming back to a line later if you can�t get it just right straight away. It�s analogous to how some people see the answer to a logic puzzle a few days down the line. On a related note, it�s generally a good idea to leave notes in your scripts for TLCers and editors. This prevents confusion and aids inter-staff communication. I have attached some of my scripts as examples. - It�s always a good idea to edit your script for spelling and grammatical mistakes a few days after the first draft. That brings a fresh set of eyes to it and reduces mistakes in the final product. - To prevent burnout and/or boredom, rip the Japanese dub from an English movie and listen to that on endless repeat. CDJapan is a treasure trove of such fun timez. Grin - Translate from English to Japanese as a change of pace. If you like smut, try translating Rowan Atkinson�s No One Called Jones skit (available on YouTube). I left the names in their English alphabetical order for the sake of simplicity. - If the particle �wa� is a shotgun, the particle �ga� is a laser. - Even the Japanese forget about 50% of the kanji they learned in school. And no school sets the pass rate at 100%. ? So instead of learning kanji mandatory furigana should be implemented. I�ve learned about 50 kanji simply through furigana and using the context to narrow down the possible meanings. If a native speaker forgets what a kanji means, and there�s no furigana, their only recourses are to wait until they remember it, or use a dictionary. It�s akin to using an abacus instead of a supercomputer. It is also of no help in conversations. I have nothing against people learning kanji or Chinese for purely academic reasons, but to force children to learn it is a waste of their time. - Torture Senseis Tip #342 � name the protagonist in a Tokimeki game after them, and make their nickname �sensei.� - Torture Senseis Tip #675 � in class, try to find an opportunity to say �Wouldn�t that picture be, �koibito ni atte kudasai?�� - Avoid tautologies and repetition. The Japanese repeat words and phrases for emphasis, but that�s rare in English. - �Remember that� = �Don�t forget that.� - Eschew passive speech whenever possible. Narrations are one exception. - Rhetorical questions can be adapted into direct statements. - Some words like �hayaku� and �dakara� can be adapted nonverbally through punctuation marks. - If the subject has been mentioned in a recent sentence, there is usually no need to reiterate it Homework Assignment (No Due Date) Take the following phrases and write down all the possible natural English translations you can think of (ignoring the context). In other words, think of as many contexts as possible where these phrases could be used, and translate them into English. Add a short description of the context. Add any punctuation marks you deem necessary to the English translation or the original Japanese phrase that you deem fit. Try and get 50 lines total � that�s more useful than trying to get three or so per phrase. �Kore wa�� �Watashi kaeru.� �Akogareru.� {Hint: Watch Only Yesterday with Ghibli�s official subtitles} �Watashi ga sou omou.� �Hai.� �Doumo.� �Yoshi!� �Kansha shimasu.� �Sonna�� �Osaki ni!� �Tsumaranai na.� �Omoshiroi na.� �Shou ga nai.� �Boku ga sou omou.� �Aa. Sonna kuso-samui noni naze horou shimen no da?� {Hint: Goeth} �Hisashi buri da ne.� Sample Answers �Kore wa�� What is this? What`s this? What on Earth? {Rhetorical question � expresses shock and surprise, rather than inquiry} This is... Watashi kaeru.� I`m going home. I`m leaving. I{ll leave. �Akogareru.� {Hint: Watch Only Yesterday with Ghibli�s official subtitles} I look up to him/her/them/it. I admire him/her/them/it. I just prefer... Watashi ga sou omou.� That`s what I think. That`s how I feel. That is how I see it. {Mind`s eye} Hai. Yes. Right. OK. Coming! Yes, ma`am. Yes, sir. Doumo.� Yoshi!� Good! Yes! Here goes� Here goes! {For someone getting ready to confess their love, or something that requires courage} Kansha shimasu.� Sonna.� You flatter me. Oh, no. Oh crap! No fair! You`ve gotta be kidding me! Osaki ni! See you at school/the party/home/work/lunch etc. Definitely NOT I`m leaving first� as Tokyopoop did in Marmalade Boy. Pfft Tsumaranai na.� Omoshiroi na.� Shou ga nai.� Boku ga sou omou. Aa. Sonna kuso-samui noni naze horou shimen no da? Yeah, why is the top down? I`m #$@&ing freezing. Hisashi buri da ne. Kono nioi |
||||
|
||||
|
Mister V
Posts: 1000 |
|
|||
|
Skylark: the trick I believe - well, it's not a trick, it's rather a pretty simple strategy - is not trying to learn the readings themselves, but to learn the words, and associate them with kanji. In our example, as long as you remember that the "jo" in "kanojo" and "josei" (and joshi, etc) is the same, you can't mistake it for anything else. Naturally it gets more difficult later on, but it's pretty much unavoidable. Also, vocab books for JLPT, for example, use the same method of grouping.
Even the Japanese themselves, - especially, for instance, when they have to take a client's name over the phone - refer to kanji in another well-known word, so as to avoid mistakes. |
||||
|
||||
|
HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
|
|||
It does help -- I can tell because it makes my head hurt. Thanks for the pointers. I had given up on trying to learn Japanese for about nine months now -- I'm trying to gear up to have a go at it again. They say that English is hard to learn but I can't see what is harder about it (other than the stupid spelling) than Japanese or Chinese. We have a lot of Vietnamese speakers around the office -- as well as the pretty lady that cuts my hair. I wish I could learn them all but my brain is not well wired for foreign languages it seems. |
||||
|
||||
Beltane70
 Posts: 3970 |
|
|||
|
Some people say that the reason why English is supposedly difficult to learn is because of all the exceptions to the rules of the language.
|
||||
|
||||
|
Skylark
Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
|
|||
English sucks to learn because of things such as the way I used the word "sucks" right there. Idioms. Also, words like through. Why silent gh? what is the rule there? Threw, through, there, they're, their, any rules are broken almost as soon as they are made, there are tons of homonyms and synonyms. The patchwork makeup from other derivative languages makes it basically a shitty language to learn but it is also the most common. I think to learn Japanese (not that I am entirely able to read without aids, and I can listen but my speech is slow, disjointed and unnatural though I have a decent accent apparently) you just need to apply yourself for short periods of time on a regular basis, rather than trying to smash it all at once. It's important to retain old concepts while continuing to new ones, and revision is basically what got me to where I am. I just kept going over grammatical constructs and doing exercises, and learned vocab by literally reading Japanese visual novels. |
||||
|
||||
wcsinn
 Posts: 186 |
|
|||
That's why some subs (usually by new translators who think that a strict 'literal' translation is the only way to go) suck! Localization should be the goal - not translation. I have worked for a Japanese company and have been involved in localizing many training courses and videos, translation is only a small part of the equation. There are contextual matters and differences in grammar and usage, even local custom and morales. Your example about Hai sometimes meaning no is a great one, I once spent 30 minutes in a business meeting in Tokyo going in circles because of this: The participant said (regarding a tool we were demoing) "But it won't work in Japanese, right?" My response was "Yes, it will work in Japanese". It took quite a while before I realized I was contradicting myself, the yes had agreed with his statement, which I immediately contradicted by saying it would work in Japanese. IMHO 'accurate" translation is useless if the context is lost and renders the finished product either awkward, or in some cases, incomprehensible. Creating a usable product that conveys the meaning rather than exact translation should be the goal. |
||||
|
||||
nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5147 |
|
|||
I have just one word for you: Irregular verbs. |
||||
|
||||
RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
|
|||
|
that's two words.
And yeah English is a very hard language for native speakers it's automatic but ir's really hard to get the right verbs if youre used to a language that dousn't juggle tenses like a circus performer. |
||||
|
||||
John Casey
 Posts: 1853 Location: In My Angry Center |
|
|||
|
Here's a question: Do you speak any language other than English?
If you answered yes, then try translating this directly into that other language: "Johnny, mah boy, we today, we been wackin' sum' coons! Then we be huntin' some tail! And a'next, we be arrivin' for ma's porridge supper right when d'bell rings. Whoohoo, boy-howdy!" Hard, isn't it? More like...impossible? 80% of the time, direct word for word translations never work into other languages. Hence, situations and context has to be applied to both languages, and upon the translation process, figure what goes where. In a typical military drama setting, for example, "hai" would translate to "YES SIR!", while in a highschool drama setting, it would be an ordinary "yeah." It is for this exact reason that I find U.N. ambassador translators to be even greater heroes than fire fighters. Cause a single, tiny screw up in dialect, or off timing, could potentially lead to a nuclear apocalypse. And you don't want Iceland and Pakistan nuking each other, now do you? You don't want to be in some post-apocalyptic wasteland raiding a soup caravan for the worlds' last can of soup. |
||||
|
||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group