Forum - View topicWomen in anime.
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poilk92
 Posts: 433 Location: Long Beach California |
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So i made an apparently ill informed statement about women in anime on the what annoys you thread and it got such a backlash i thought it might do well in its own thread
I am wondering how you all think women are portrayed in anime? Do you think their depiction is sexist or degrading? How realistic do you think women/girls act in your average anime? Do you even want realistic girls in anime or do you prefer the whimsical fantasy girls they have? For me it feels like snipe hunting looking for a realistic strong female character. And i know in a medium that has giant fighting robots and magic you want realism? short answer, yes. At least out of the characters. It seems to me that in most anime if there is a love story the woman always plays damsel in distress which is fine now and then but after the hundredth time the whole "you where nice to me when i was lonely/ you saved me from monster/ you talked to me when i was so obviously mentally unstable and unfit for a relationship. I love you forever" gets stale and frankly feels unrealistic especially for strong female characters who in the real world are likely to feel slighted by some one thinking they need to save her. Further more the gambit of male characters is quite large though they do tend to stick to some hero archetype i see alot of differing personalities. With women i see about 3 personalities aloof/bitchy which they confuse with strong needy/annoying which they confuse with affectionate quiet/loner which they confuse with lonely. Now there are exceptions to what i have said and i have no problem hearing them and why my opinions are wrong and stupid BUT please dont just throw out one example and then act like you have defeated my point of view i prefer discussion to argument |
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sonicdahedgie
Posts: 32 |
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There's a bit of a problem when discussing sexism in things. If you look at anything in the right light, it can be seen as sexist. So people can possibly view almost any character as sexist.
At the same time, if you know about Japanese culture, you'll realize that, holy shit, it really is sexist most of the time. At least, it makes it hard for me to not think otherwise sometimes. However, this generally applies to crappier anime. I know I've thought a million times about how stereotypically a female character is portrayed, but for the life of me, I can't remember any of these characters. That's because absolutely none of them are memorable. Oh god. The main girl in Ai Yori Aoshi. That one, I just remembered. God, that was terrible. But for the most part, these anime are never any good. None of them are really all that popular, even in Japan. _________ I'm not sure where I'm going with this post, so I'll end it here and come back later. |
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Unicorn_Blade
 Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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That would be not the only ill informed statement you made (as in Incest discussion)
 And no, I dont think your opinion is stupid or anything, but I think it's worth looking into some thing before making a statement.
I dont know... this subject is as broad as "Men in anime", or "Women in novel"... Since you get literally everything: realistic and unrealistic, fragile and tough, degradading and praising, and so on, and so forth. It might be easier at looking how they are portrayed in certain genres rather than in anime in general and be more precise, otherwise there are thousands if not more female characters in anime as a whole, dissecting every single one of them seems quite tiresome. You labeled women quite badly in my opinion, I dont know why you try tu stuff them into three weird cathegories. If you try really hard, you can probably put all male characters into tiny boxes like this as well : superhero with no flaws, horny teenager, a quiet/shy type... That is if you only look at their most visible characteristics, and completely omitt little detail that matters... Even damsel in distress can be portrayed in different ways (I should know, I wrote a long essay on the subject), unless you only see this one single quality in her. There are certain stereotypes that are played over and over, specially in some genres, but that does not make all female characters the same, and that goes for all other type of characters... |
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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Hmm ok first I will say that Anime is an extremely broad media. Covering everything from Girzzly realism to wacked out craziness to hyper cute moe to gut wrenching horror even all the way to borderline hentai.
Is Sexism present in Anime? Absoluteley Is Sexism endemic to Anime? Absolutely not! Is this Sexism limited to female characters? Nope  #
Fate/Stay Night and Ai Yori Aoshi are two examples of sexism I can think of right off the top of my head. It can also be argued that moe is sexist although personally I do not believe that is so. A certain amount of unrealism is present in Anime and that bleeds into any character. I think it would be a mistake to highlight the unrealism of women and take it as an example of Sexism. Because when a show decides it's not going to keep it's feet on the ground men are potrayed unrealistically as well. However there are plenty of completely non sexist shows out there. In fact listing any decent number of them would take too long. However it can be noted that mainstream Anime i.e the shounene juggernaughts / moe shows / ecchi titles do have a pretty definate slant towards sexism. The only thing I can suggest to anyone who seems to feel Anime is sexist is to broaden their horizons. Watch 12 Kingdoms that's a start. The female protagonist starts weak but trust me by the end you will respect her quite a bit. And Balsa from Serei no Moribito is perhaps one of my favorite heroes period regardless of sex. Also has anyone ever considered very often there will be a character that is not as good looking as the male lead. And is fairly jokey open about their sexuality. These people are potrayed as dyed in the wool perverts. Which I think is also sexist. Clearly alot of Anime has not heard the phrase boys will be boys. I also find the "perfect" men to be somewhat sexist too pandering to female wish fulfillment. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18274 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I hear Aoi Sakuraba from Ai Yori Aoshi often pointed to as an example of blatant sexism in anime, but I am firmly convinced that she isn't a good example to point to. Yes, she she represents the ultimate ideal of a nadeshiko Japanese woman, but it isn't like Aoi has no backbone; she does defy her own family for what she wants and the episode where she gets sick shows that she is so enormously capable that several people struggle to do everything she does in one day. Besides - and I've said this several times before - I once showed that series to my youngest sister, and she said that she knew girls in high school who had no aspirations greater than what Aoi does. And this is in the U.S., too.
There are many intensely moe characters out there that I find to be far more sexist portrayals than Aoi is. |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4623 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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[I see Key beat me to this point but I'll repeat] Actually, complaining about Aoi as a sexist stereotype is a trap. Apart from the love story and harem comedy, that show was about the collision of tradition and modernity. She may be the ideal of a traditional Japanese beauty as she was brought up to be, meant to be submissive and weak but she does fight against it (it's not as obvious without reading the end of the manga). Plus there are a variety of female characters in the show and it tries to find value in each type. ---- For a show with a more clear example of making a strong girl weak so the man can save her, there's a particularly egregious example in Asu no Yoichi!/Samurai Harem there's a part in an episode in which some delinquents abduct Ayame in order to antagonize former delinquent Ryo. The scene is rather disgusting to me. They take her by force by nothing more than the threat of force and when Ryo meets them on the street she is a quivering pathetic mess and is molested by them with no resistance. Why is it so disgusting? Ayame is the daughter of a dojo! She's trained in martial arts and while she is apparently not the equal of her sister she should not be such a wilting flower. Later on they even reveal that she has her own special powerful attack- but when the MEN are around to save her, she's worthless. This type of weak girl can be a problem in anime. It's a legitimate criticism of this past season's Okamisan too. The main character is a strong girl made weak occasionally so the man can be a hero, a theme they state outright by the end Ryoshi stops saying he'll support her and starts saying "she's secretly weak," "pretends to be strong" but that's O.K. because he'll "always be there to protect [her]." Anime shows really do have to stick behind their strong women and not make them shrinking violets for convenience sake. Last edited by Spastic Minnow on Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16941 |
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I have argued this often myself. People often call her a door mat too which is just bs. Yes she's a more traditional house wife character but that in itself does not make her a sexist character. Plenty of women WANT to be housewives. They WANT to stay home and make a family and run it. There's nothing wrong with that. Aoi, as Key said, defies her family risking being disowned by them. She does this and stays by Kaoru not because she was once promised to him but because she wants to. She does stand up for herself and what she wants. And as Key said she is plenty capable and no one else in the house can come close to doing everything she does in a single day. Furthermore if you read the manga you get to see more towards the end of her standing on her own. You see her and Kaoru both make a stand for what they want. She may be the more traditional house wife character but she is not a doormat nor a typical sexist character. I can see where people may think that but you really need to take a closer look at her and especially her actions throughout the series. Another example of a similar character people often label as a sexist character or a doormat is Belldandy from Oh My Goddess. At first glance that may seem to be the case but you have to look deeper to get the full picture. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18274 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Oh, yes, this irritates more than probably anything else anime does in terms of character portrayals of women. These are the instances which should be complained about in a thread like this. |
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poilk92
Posts: 433 Location: Long Beach California |
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first reply might be right about this being too broad but it will probably be steered to whatever is the most contreversial or fun part of the topic. To me its not rely a question of being sexist at all, i could care less if an anime is sexist or not i am just looking for interesting round characters and i see plenty of nuances and depth in many male characters but i don't see the attention to detail in alot of female characters. It seems for the most part that the female characters are more of props than characters. I tend to like anime when i can get invested with the characters and when the lead female is a cardboard cutout just waiting to be whisked away by someone. And this has simply ruined tons of potentially good shows for me .
Also i honestly cant think of any solid examples of a romance where the woman wasn't a damsel in distress and i am sick of that lame overused archetype its even worse than the lame overused angsty hero who has to save said damsel. and if your gana use FLCL as an example all i can say that was a one sided romance so it doesnt count 
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Unicorn_Blade
Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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Thats maybe ebcause you only concentrate on those attention to details. Or you cant see them, or you dont find them important enough... Or maybe what makes a character interesting for someone does not make it interesting enough for you, and that's the way it is, you might not find a female character good enough for your standarts, that are much higher for women than for men You judge women more harshly than male characters it seems
Maybe you should look at who is writing the stories, whether men portray women less accurately, or whether women writers do a better job at portraying women, or whether it is all the same. I dont know. As for the romance without damsel in distress with a cool, female lead, try Skip Beat! |
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RHachicho
Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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I have already mentioned 12 Kingdoms and Moribito as two shows you should definately try without delay. Read or die is also a great series for some deep female characters. But watch the OVA first. The TV series does not "quite" live up to it imo. Depending on the Anime women are potrayed very differently. And I honestly think that it pretty much runs the full gammet. If you wan't you can find examples of extreme sexism and degradation. And also of extremely strong and deep female characters. Same with men.
As for wether i prefer realistic or stylised women I make no real preference if a character is compelling then it is compelling. But so much of this depends on the show the character comes from. The storytellers art is one of the most complicated after all there are so many factors involved. And a character that seems grossly out of place in one story might fit perfectly in another. I tend to look for deeper more interesting characters tho. Wether they are stylised or not. Yomiko Readman for example is somewhat stylised having that quirk towards being unfailingly polite even to an enemy she is currently fighting. But this makes her character more interesting. Whats more exceptional individuals tend to be strong minded and thus develop their own personal quirks that set them apart from others. So a certain amount of whimsicality can be gotten away with and still potray a somewhat realistic character. Then again you have the Balsa type which apart from her incredible skill and unusual attitude for her world is a very realistic character. I guess what I am trying to say is quirkiness dousn't always break the realism barrier for me. |
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Bingal
Posts: 95 |
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You'll find sexism in any storytelling medium. Although I'm not a big fan of it... I can, to a certain degree, live with it. What I absolutely can't stand and find incredibly insulting is when female characters are basically only there to be degraded into pure eye-candy. It's one thing to make them appealing, but it's another to make them pandering machines without any value.
You can say that I'm not ''that'' concerned with initial stereotypes of female characters as I am with the said characters being objects of titillation. Sometimes I come across a series where the female cast is so pornographic in nature (Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou for example) that I can't help but set up a look of disgust. Thank god for competent writers and directors that show their females in a more positive light like they're shown in gems like The Twelve Kingdoms and Seirei no Moribito. |
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Kelly
Posts: 868 Location: New York City |
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I think part of the issue is also that there isn't alot of josei anime around. I think I could count the josei anime I'm aware of on one hand. Adult women aren't exactly the usual anime target audience.
I'm assuming we're not talking girl characters here and are really focusing on adult women, so I won't go into the obvious girl examples like Miyazaki's heroines. I'll add my vote to Moribito's Balsa and the young women of The Twelve Kingdoms. In spite of the skimpy clothing, Major Kusanagi of the Ghost in the Shell franchise leads a special ops team very competently and would have to be mentioned in any list of memorable female anime characters. There's also Yuko Ichihara of the Tsubasa/xxxHOLiC multiverse, who's essentially the tactitian of Team anti-Fei Wang Reed and advises the Holic boys and the Tsubasa gang as to what they need to wish for at crisis points - which almost definitely isn't as easy as she makes it look. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18274 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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And there's certainly some of that in mainstream anime, but I haven't seen that there's any greater presence of it in anime than in any other entertainment medium. In fact, anime has a far better track record of showing strong, empowered heroines than one would expect based on the pervasive sexist influences still present in Japanese society. In addition to previously-stated examples, look at characters like Honoka in The Third: The Girl With The Blue Eye, who's smart, powerful, monstrously skilled, and yet still empathetic enough to solve some of the biggest problems she's confronted by in her series through that empathy. Or consider Armitage in the Armitage III OVAs/movies, who struts around in the first one wearing hot pants and a halter top but is still a fearsomely capable combatant. Revy and Balalaika from Black Lagoon are ideal examples that I'm surprised haven't been mentioned yet. (And you could probably throw in that nun - forget her name - too.) Lafiel from Crest/Banner of the Stars, Marlene from Blue Gender, almost any of the Knight Sabers from the Bubblegum Crisis/Crash/2040 franchise, nearly the entire cast of Claymore. . . and I'm only down to the Cs in my personal collection and have skipped over several more marginal options. If you just want to consider the most recent series, look at Yuri in Angel Beats! or Aoba in Cross Game. Heck, even though it's a harem series which uses blatant fan service, all of the main girls surrounding Kio in Asobi ni Ikuyo! are enormously competent individuals, too; even prime cheesecake girl Elis was able to get out of a bad fix without any help in an early episode simply on her own ability. The point is, you can find scores of excellent examples of female characters in anime who defy sexist tendencies, and in nearly every genre, too. (Although in my experience, shojo romances actually tend to be one of the weaker genres when it comes to this.) Several of those involve romances where the woman isn't the "damsel in distress" either, poilk92; Cross Game is an exceptionally good example of that, and there are many others where the guy is actually the one in need of rescue (Blue Gender immediately comes to mind). |
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Sanosuke_Inara
 Posts: 1662 |
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