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Hey, Answerman! - Popularity Contests

I'm currently studying abroad in Japan, and had to switch my laptop's region code to DVD2 so that I could rent movies to watch, as well as help host movie night for my job.

Just look at Idolmaster from last year... we already have 4 or 5 idol anime clones since because of its massive popularity.

Also, I too am one of those 10 or so people that still enjoys Master Keaton.

Long after viewing the series, I have yet to see any explanation of the Madoka Magica finale that makes sense in any kind of meaningful way. Most explanations seem to be more or less whimsical, vacuous, wish-fulfillment psycho babble about the power of love overcoming all or the power of a pure girl's heart saving the universe and offering hope to all girls everywhere, or Madoka becoming a god so that she could change the rules of the universe and give hope to all people throughout time. For such an ambitious show to end with a finale saturated with inane platitudes and superficial (and very well-tread in the genre) concepts was a travesty. I don't disagree that Madoka Magica was one one of the best anime to come out in recent years, but after doing so much to break the mold of its genre, it finished up by quietly slinking back into the mold and relying on die hard fans to come up with hackneyed interpretations of how amazing it is in spite of its play it safe conclusion.

To be honest, I thought Zac's praise of Madoka Magica was a little too exuberant. Although I agreed with most of what he said in his multiple reviews on the show, I thought the final review was a little over the top. Long after viewing the series, I have yet to see any explanation of the Madoka Magica finale that makes sense in any kind of meaningful way. Most explanations seem to be more or less whimsical, vacuous, wish-fulfillment psycho babble about spoiler[the power of love overcoming all or the power of a pure girl's heart saving the universe and offering hope to all girls everywhere, or Madoka becoming a god so that she could change the rules of the universe and give hope to all people throughout time]. For such an ambitious show to end with a finale saturated with inane platitudes and superficial (and very well-tread in the genre) concepts was a travesty. I don't disagree that Madoka Magica was one one of the best anime to come out in recent years, but after doing so much to break the mold of its genre, it finished up by quietly slinking back into the mold and relying on die hard fans to come up with hackneyed interpretations of how amazing it is in spite of its play it safe conclusion.

Shippoyasha wrote:

My problem with that theory is that spoiler[Incubators can't risk an all out war with Madoka. She is a goddess surpassing all logic and power and reasoning and I'm not sure Incubators would risk getting wiped out entirely if they keep attacking Madoka's idealized world so directly. And despite what Kyubee says about the lack of emotions, he seemed plenty frightened of what Madoka was going to do when she made her wish]

I think people are getting the wrong idea about spoiler[Ultimate Madoka's form and role. She ISN'T so much a God/Goddess as she is a "kami." Japan doesn't really discriminate between the two, so it's kinda vague, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had no particular religion in mind when creating her character and role, thus opening it up to lots of interpretation as to why Kyuubey called her a "kami." Yet, I also believe they didn't allude to her having "creation" powers or anything usually associated with an almighty God. In fact, it isn't really supported that she's actually anything but a Magical Girl whose wish simply contradicted her present existence and thus, she was erased from any existence that wasn't compliant with her wish--which was to travel to through time and space and erase witches by taking the souls of the magical girls with her and releasing their contaminated soul gems before they could turn into witches. The change of the universe had to do with the consequences of her single goal--she didn't "create" a universe to her liking. She can't just eliminate anything... at least, to our knowledge. She's simply a really powerful magical girl whose wish created a new "law" for the universe. And as she is the being that puts that law into motion, she is a force of nature itself. Thus, she is a "kami" by means of Japanese classification of the term--which includes forces of nature (some of which who can assume human form in old folklore).]

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

As far as them leaving things open to speculation, I do generally like when writers do that, and they did do a decent amount of that with Madoka, but my real hesitation to calling it an A+ classic has more to do with the conventional nature of the ending and the fact that the subversion was pulled back, rather than a question of whether or not they left things open to speculation.

Conventional? The subversion was pulled back?
What kinds of other series have you seen that pull an ending like this? And even barring the issue of originality, what is wrong with such an ending, anyway, if it makes sense in the end and brings about a conclusion (tying up all necessary loose ends)?
Not to say that you're wrong, but I certainly thought it was fresh. And I've seen evangelion a billion times over.

And I don't think they "pulled back" anything they did before. Everything that happened was necessary for this particular ending to occur. spoiler[Mami died in order to show the seriousness of being a Magical Girl. Sayaka lost her Soul Gem to show that Magical Girls are not what they look like, and are now, in fact, no longer human--causing many to fall into despair when they've lost their humanity. Sayaka's downfall was, of course, the major plot twist to the system. Kyouko's sacrifice showed that it was possible to regain your humanity and fight from something or someone you believe in. And Homura's entire background premise gave us the necessary build-up to provide Madoka the means to conclude all of the main thematic issues the series was leading up to: hope, despair, and the value of one's humanity vs. how the world works.

You don't necessarily have to agree with the message the series was giving, but it still used all of its "subverted tropes" to re-construct our image of what a Magical Girl is. It doesn't void everything that happened because it takes advantage of each aspect they subverted to put the new Magical Girl into perspective. I mean, just because Magical Girls don't turn into witches anymore doesn't mean they are that much better off. Sure, they don't turn into witches anymore, but that's hardly the only problem they have to face when they are still fighting real death and their souls are still trapped in Soul Gems. Madoka just used her own power to give back the "humanity" to these girls, at least mentally. Instead of watching them suffer continuously and then turn into monsters to deny everything they valued, she supported their values. She supported their "dreams" and their "hopes" that brought about their wishes, just like the magical girls she always liked when she was younger. Just like the magical girls we know today, who fight for similar reasons (in other anime, and especially more generic Magical Girl shows that are there mostly for show and to sell toys). But unlike many of them, the Magical Girls in PMMM are not immune to death, absolute downfalls, and/or even destruction against their own will--things we humans are eternally afraid of.

The series subverted tropes intentionally, and then utilized all these new elements to create a message about why Magical Girls might have good reason to fight for what they believe. Madoka may be a bit optimistic, but... with the right opportunity, that optimism can be a great tool to solving major issues.]

And besides, it would be one thing if the creators were simply out there to make a statement against Magical Girl series in general and how flat they are at times, but... Madoka was never a case like that from the beginning! It paid tribute to past classics straight from thespoiler[ comedic opening movie to the figurative swirl of Kyouko's blood down to the naked and emotional space scene and final ribbon exchange.] (I've seen people mention that particular Nanoha reference, but was I the only one to notice the Sailor Moon, Revolutionary Girl Utena, and Kannazuki no Miko references here? I had to take my own screenshots to prove my argument...)

I haven't watched the films, and I probably won't go out of my way to do so, but I understand why a person who is not a die hard anime fan would not find the show all that compelling. The first 95% of the show appeals primarily to anime fans who are distressed over the stagnation of the magical girl genre.

The last 5% of the show appeals to strident optimists (and young children) who want to believe that hope and love conquer all evils.

I have yet to see any explanation of the Madoka Magica finale that makes sense in any kind of meaningful way. Most explanations seem to be more or less .... spoiler[Madoka becoming a god so that she could change the rules of the universe and give hope to all people throughout time.]

I suppose it is more or less a given that most magical girl shows will exist in an all-girl universe.

She is a goddess surpassing all logic and power and reasoning

She ISN'T so much a God/Goddess as she is a "kami."

In fact, it isn't really supported that she's actually anything but a Magical Girl whose wish simply contradicted her present existence and thus, she was erased from any existence that wasn't compliant with her wish--which was to travel to through time and space and erase witches by taking the souls of the magical girls with her and releasing their contaminated soul gems before they could turn into witches.

The change of the universe had to do with the consequences of her single goal...
She's simply a really powerful magical girl whose wish created a new "law" for the universe. And as she is the being that puts that law into motion, she is a force of nature itself.

And Homura's entire background premise gave us the necessary build-up to provide Madoka the means to conclude all of the main thematic issues the series was leading up to: hope, despair, and the value of one's humanity vs. how the world works.

she supported their values. She supported their "dreams" and their "hopes" that brought about their wishes, just like the magical girls she always liked when she was younger.