Forum - View topicMoe hate in its various forms. (Keep it civil please)
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momamario
Posts: 17 |
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You know, pretty much anywhere that a fan of anything goes, they're always going to find some other fans of that same thing that reject something because it's popular. With moe this is happening more and more. As a person, I have no conflict with anyone who dislikes anime filled with moe for legitimate reasons. I admit, there are plenty, if you need action, if you want a plot... ect. One slight problem, however is that the people who dislike it also will most likely criticize it for reasons that an anime usually wouldn't take as much heat from. (Take a look at something like Evangelion: Asuka is a pretty basic tsundere when it comes down to it, but people don't care because Evangelion does many other things)
What really annoys me is when people are simply jumping on the "I hate moe bandwagon". Sadly this is happening more and more because some ignorant fans who read blogs by people who dislike moe for real reasons. These ignorant fans then see this and think "wow that's a dumb idea. An anime without a plot, and those characters sound dumb". Those fans are then led to criticize the anime when they have not even seen it. Another category that I don't like is the people who are disliking a show because everyone likes it. Seriously people, non-conforming about an anime isn't cool at all. That's like buying an electric guitar but using it to play showtunes. Lastly there's the people who will tell themselves that a show such as that is below them. This is somewhat worrisome to me because this is a slightly more recent trend. Looking back at some of the "classics", would something like Azumanga Daioh be considered as awesome as people say it is? Most likely not, people would just call Osaka a moeblob and Chio a loli. This growing cynicism is something that's also happening with gaming and I think it can really be attributed to the fact that as the anime community comes into its own as less of a small group of people, different cliques of fans emerge. The anime fans then want to appear cool in front of other anime fans, and thus don't watch these shows that they feel are below them. I think it's a real shame that many of the fans of anime are so concerned about what other fans would think about them, because they've got to realize: You're watching cartoons from a different country, often in a different language. You're already uncool in that sense. I think as a group, anime fans tended to band together because they were all socially shunned in the earlier time of anime fandom. In an annoying paradox, as anime fandom becomes accepted on a larger scale, people in that fandom will become more and more separated from each other. So remember, if you dislike it for valid reasons (where are my giant robots!?) then I'm fine with that. If you are, however trying to convince yourself or others that you dislike moe to act like you are better than someone, go away. Your cartoons are not better than my cartoons. My cartoons are not better than yours. We are all in the same fandom and many people are going to find us weird whether our shows involve big strong manly robots, or small weak cute girls. tl;dr you're not getting one, I purposely made that post overly long to keep my brain active in the summer. Do the same and read it. Then reply. |
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Olliff
 Posts: 550 |
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It's undeniable that moe has become more prevalent in anime in the recent years, and I believe that it is attributed primary to the preferences of the new generation of anime fans. I concede that it is undeniable that a certain segment of anime fandom hates moe simply because it is moe. However, without the increased acceptance of moe, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, and we would be seeing significantly less moe titles being produced.
This topic has been beaten to death, and your tone, while not overtly offensive, will inadvertently lead to flames from certain posters. However at the same time, I happen to find this topic to be especially interesting. Personally, I am fairly ambivalent when it comes to moe. To me, it all depends on the execution and the amount used. Moe should be used in moderation, and it should be used tastefully. Moe like many other things can be a detriment to a series if taken to excess or if it crosses certain lines. However, if done right it can add an emotional element to the story that appeals strongly to not only hardcore moe fans, but to the mainstream fan as well. Cute things have always been an integral part of anime and moe, in a sense, seems like the logical next step in order to further target this group of anime fans. However, at the same time, I can understand why certain fans, especially older generation fans with more traditional preferences, might find moe unappealing or even offensive. The fundamental difference in opinion between these two parts of fandom, older more traditional fans and moe fans boils down to merely a difference in preferences. This is natural to happen, and I personally don't understand why it is right wrong to dislike moe just as well as any other element of anime be it fan service, giant mechs, harems or anything else for that matter. |
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Miranox
 Posts: 247 Location: Montreal, Canada |
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I've seen some of this moe hate you speak of, but there isn't as much as you think. In the top 50 rated shows on this site, I count at least a dozen that rely heavily on moe for their appeal. Statistics are more trustworthy than biased opinions or arrogant forum posters. A few people voicing their hate of moe on the forums makes little difference.
There are people who choose to hate something simply to go against popular opinion. However, this kind of hate won't endure very long if moe appeals to you. If you like it you will notice quickly. On the other hand, it's more common to hate moe in order to maintain an internet tough guy image. After all, on anime sites people will judge you based on your taste in anime. There are also people like myself who don't hate moe but don't like it either. It just doesn't appeal to me in any way. Shows that rely heavily on moe bore me so I give them mediocre or average ratings. An interesting thing I noticed is that there is difference of opinion among moe fans. There is a lot of diversity in taste. Even hardcore fans don't automatically like every show with moe in it. They may like some while hating others, regardless of how similar they may be. I don't remember any concrete examples, but you'll see what I mean if you check some personal anime lists. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I might as well be upfront; I hate Moe for the following reasons (I only listed the big ones):
Partly because of the lack of strong-willed heroines. Where are the girls who are as strong and mature as say Hitomi from Escaflowne? And no, being tsundere/yandere/whatever does not necessarily equal strong-willed. Partly because the guys are completely uninteresting. All of them seem to be incredibly nice and utterly boring, as if to better allow the (male) viewer to imprint himself on the character. And partly, as JesuOtaku mentioned in her review of Air, is because the emotions you feel are artificial because the plot is so artificial. Every second female character seems to have a debilitating illness or psychological problems, or is so clumsy that it stretches the fabric of the universe (or at least my suspension of disbelief). I'll stop it there, because that's about how far I can go without getting, erm, enthusiastic about the discussion. |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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I feel both awkward and that I must post in here given my current avatar (one of the first things he says in his motel room. He can also wear a shirt with those characters on it).
Oddly enough, I don't seem to mind other characters obsessed with moe, usually because it's played as a joke (like Yamazaki in Welcome to the NHK, Travis Touchdown in No More Heroes, or even that one episode in Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi where Saashit goes to moe school). I myself tend to avoid moe shows. It's a mix of plot and characters, neither one of them interest me. I don't mind a moe characters in a show (heck, Nia's theme in Gurren Lagann is called "What in the world is 'moe'?"), but they're never going to be my favorite character (I don't hate Nia though and I don't see what is particularly moe about her compared to other more moe characters). But a cast of entire moes? Considering that I don't like them too much as a character when they're the only moe character in a show, I can't imagine watching a show entirely consisting of those types of characters. Since characters are more important that plot line for me 95% of the time, I don't really care what the show is about. Actually, I'm not sure if I've seen a moe-only show before, even though I've encountered those characters before. But I don't like the characters because they tend to be rather wimpy and sometimes crying and crying annoys me. I've encountered quite a few in games and I hate them just as much there (*shakes fist* Polka!!). I was also quite mad when Haruhi recruited Asahina on the basis that she's a moe character (which, while hilarious, I totally hated Asahina). I don't like their weak protection needing attitude (not counting the few, like Nyu who are in fact spoiler[psycho awesome]), and I can see why other people wouldn't like them either. And I can also see why Travis Touchdown does. |
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dizzon
 Posts: 338 |
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There will always be people who jump on bandwagons to feel like part of a group. But, having said that, people who jump on bandwagons usually only make up a small part of said group.
Are there some moe hating "john come lately's"? Sure there are! But chances are very good that most moe haters actually dislike moe for genuine personal reasons. Shows with helpless troubled girls can and will bother some people. You can't argue with someone's feeling's. The same aspects of a show that draw some people in, will also repel others. |
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Hentai_JP
 Posts: 605 Location: Toronto, ON |
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Presence of moe has to be justified.
I can see three types of anime series that include moe elements. First, is when moe is a main theme/subgenre that is carried throughout the entire series [Lucky Star, K-ON! and Nurse Witch Komugi-chan]; second, an anime show where certain characters written in particular way to put a checkmark on "must-have" moe character[Gurren Lagann and Melancholy of Haruhi]; and finally, absolutely out of place moe theme and characters who don't fit in or abuse the genre[Clannad, Kanon and Air]. First group has a purpose, series usually fall in "cute girls do cute things" catergory and since they simply overflow with moe it makes them easy to hate or love. Fans of genre know why they love it and haters are(or should be) smart enough to avoid series they know are not for them. I love the shows above as they are what they are, that is a "pure" moeblob done right, with no delusions of complex storytelling or out-of-place fanservise/cuteness. Slice of life comedy, sometimes with romance, is where moe is at it's best. Second group is more difficult for haters to avoid. Since most characters cannot be easy grouped as moe or other archetypes, some people end up hating certain characters, but still continue with the show. I also like the shows I mentioned, as Mikuru and Nia blend in very well, supporting main cast and story rather then distracting from it. And then there is last group where moe just doesn't fit into the genre or has an "unnecessary" feel to it. Because of this it took me about 3 tries to get past episode four in Air(it proved to be worth it) and I couldn't continue with Kanon(2006) nor Clannad. While you may disagree with my particular picks for this group I am sure you have the same feeling about some other series[why... WHY did they make it a MOE show? UGH! RAGE!!!]. Bottom line: I agree that love or hate relationship with "moe" has to be justified, that means proclaiming hatred to everything that includes moe is, rather, silly. @momamario Reducing Asuka to tsuntsun archetype is wrong, she is much more than that. Asuka is rather a foundation to modern tsundere, not the other way around. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15580 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I am interested in the concept of moe, I had noticed in anime such as Lucky Star and Azumanga Daioh had a style that I picked up from comments must be moe. I guess I have picked out that people dislike it for an almost aim to try and trick viewers into liking the show for shalow regions and not havng any other good points. But though I have found myself some of the full on moe characters, I have found that I actualy quite enjoy some anime that fit into the moe genre. I don't realy go out to look for them, but I have found that I like some of the easy go style of moe anime, especialy since some darker ones have a bit of a depressing feel and it can be a nice pick me up to watch a funny moe where everyone isn't trying to kill each other.
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I don't buy it. Certainly you can't say everyone is one way or the other but as I see it there are more than enough reasons to dislike moe to account for a lot of the hate it gets. Sure there may be some bandwagon jumpers but the bulk of people just really don't like moe.
Also though you're not being too bad here you're sort of verging on what annoys me about a lot of moe fans. Whenever someone criticizes moe they insist it isn't actually bad but rather everyone just has their own preferences. Then though, they turn around and explain why they think people who don't like moe are actually just biased or hating it because it's popular or something. So much for 'everyone has personal preferences'.
You do realize that those so called statistics are just calculated from the ratings given but those exact same 'arrogant forum users' with their 'biased opinions'. |
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Ausdoerrt
 Posts: 481 |
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I dunno about others, but for me it's not "moe hate" but rather "moe bore". I used to like some good moe-reliant series when they were still fresh for me, but now they all just feel exactly freaking same. Much like shounen action series, I feel like most of them just reuse the same formula every time, with just minor changes, and if you've seen one, you've seen all. Plus, I prefer series where you need more than one sentence to summarize the main story.
Moe elements, they are a different beast, most every anime these days has some (as long as you use the old definition for "moe" - a general definition for attractive girls in 2D), and it's fine up until a certain point. As long as the anime doesn't stray off its main focus just to show off the moe appeal for the fans, it's fine, but otherwise it's useless "fanservice". If moe series brought anything new to the table, I'd be all for it - but unfortunately, I haven't seen them do so in a loooong time. Thus far it's usually the sci-fi series who are the innovators and pioneers, just like the old days when the otaku culture was just starting off. I wish, however, that moe was also married to progress and improvement in anime like in the old days as well, and only then will it deserve any respect from me. However, if it's gonna be Key remaking Kanon and KyoAni remaking Haruhi for the next ten years, it's just not worth my time and attention. So well, that was my stance on moe overload in anime. Once again, it's not really hate, because hate is an active feeling against something. This, I just tend to ignore. Call it "indifference". It's not like it's ruining the industry - there's always been good shows and crappy shows. Sometimes the companies have to make shit that sells, to later have the funds to release anime masterpieces. I think it's a fair sacrifice to make. |
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Miranox
Posts: 247 Location: Montreal, Canada |
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I mean that the statistics indicate that the vast majority of people like those shows and the forum hate comes from a small minority. |
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EireformContinent
 Posts: 977 Location: Łódź/Poland (The Promised Land) |
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One of the buttons under my post lead to my private ranking of M&A and I think that it says more about my private opinion than statistics calculated on ratings given by thousands of random users.
I've never tried to follow the fashion no to be a part of "small minority". I don't runaway because of one element- even mecha or magical girls can be interesting, so I give them a chance. I don't want to ban moe at all, but I simply don't find them interesting. One moe as a comedy element can be even funny, but when all girls act like they exchanged their minds for sweets the series is just boring to me. Maybe I'm not a target. |
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4nBlue
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Touka (Utawarerumono) Nagomi (Tsuyokiss, game) Meiya (Muv-Luv) Most of the main cast of Muv-Luv Alternative Mifuyu (Tayutama, game) Tomo and Atori (Rui wa Tomo o Yobu) Nanoha and Hayate (Nanoha) Tomoyo (Clannad) Kaze no Ushiro o Ayumumono (Jingai Makyou) Most of the female cast of Fate/Stay Night Kotomine Kirei (Fate/Stay Night), he is totally moe I am sure that someone might say that some of the characters are not strong or mature, but I could also say that Hitomi is moe.
Also often the character development and comedy involving the protagonist is cut out so the anime can cram in more girls falling on their noses while making cute noises and flashing panties. There are some very awesome protagonist in visual novels like Tomo (he is 100% male), who won the popularity contest with almost as many votes as the heroines combined votes.
I really don't have much of problem with "moe-haters". Everyone has their own opinion and we can't expect everyone to love the same series. Only thing I don't like about some "moe-haters" is the comments they post almost every time a new show is announced. Proclaiming the show to be a "moe show" and crap based on short summary and one image and rant about how moe is the doom of anime industry. Last edited by 4nBlue on Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Imperialkat
 Posts: 227 |
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Indeed, the "moe hate" can be attributed to many factors already mentioned in this thread. There are (and always will be) those bandwagon jumpers who see the flame, believe that this is the way it should be, and join in. There are people who hate things that are popular, either to be non-conformist or because they feel that the show's fame is undeserved. And then there are those for whom moe doesn't really work. Moe is not alone in this--shonen, mecha, magical girl, harem, even Miyazaki have their own "boo sections" comprised of various combinations of these people. It happens.
I believe, though, that we need to differentiate between "moe dislike" and "moe hate". Moe dislike is more silent, like "eh, I don't really care for moe". They're more likely to watch a show with moe elements because it isn't enough to kill their interest in the show. Moe hate, however, uses "moe" like a four-letter word, and almost any show that employs the element is automatic garbage. These guys are the face, or rather voice, of hate, and are probably what the OP was reffering to. However, when speaking together in a forum "dislike" sounds like "hate". Dislike is (mostly) legitimate; hate is (mostly) unnessary. Another thing to keep in mind is that when it comes to these genres/elements of anime, the amount of love is much, much larger than the amount of hate. There's a reason we have Kanon. |
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Ausdoerrt
Posts: 481 |
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First, don't misread the lines, and don't discard the rest of the post. Second, it all depends on perspective, what's moe to one isn't necessarily moe to another. Unless we're talking about the forcibly moe girls, in the series that're trying too hard, then it's a different matter... Thus, the list you wrote in your post also has little use - since the next person can just as easily disagree with it. Ultimately, though, moe is based on a protective feeling towards the girl - which ultimately could be any girl - and the truly strong female leads usually don't qualify. Nauscicaa isn't moe, neither is Motoko from Gits, etc.
I'd rather explain it with the difference in format, if anything, and also the inability of the directors to describe them properly. Of course, there's boring male leads in VNs, but there's interesting ones as well, and I haven't seen them transferred into anime properly (I mean, look at Shingetsutan Tsukihime). |
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