Forum - View topicThe Hitchhiker Guide to the Super Robot Anime genre.
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DomFortress
 Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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I'll begin with a word to our readers: this guide is a continuing project that's designed to help the readers to better understand, and thereby hopefully will appreciate the super robot anime genre. Although I'm the one who started the topic, I do welcome fans of this genre to offer anything that they think might be helpful to better understand the genre such as key notes about particular artist, production talents, anime series(preferably ones with R1 licensing distributors).
RedLeader made this very informative post on the clinical definition of the super robot anime genre. Key made an insightful discovery on the origin of the Five Member Team Dynamic in the super robot anime genre. A quick look at one of the preceding tradition and the principle philosophy of the super robot anime genre: Beyond Good and Evil. A look at the moral aspect on the super robot anime genre: Master Morality. The science of the super robot spirit: Positive Psychology. Anime loosing its place in humanity: Lack of Leadership by Example Introduction Instead of a history lesson about the genre, I'm going to start by offering an extremely simplified rule-of-thumb about the super robot anime genre: Super means extreme, Robot is simply awesome, Anime stands for Japanese animation, and Genre refers to the kind of structure a story is. So in another word, the super robot anime genre is a story structure in Japanese animation that's simply awesome to the extreme. And because the genre is so fundamentally simple to get, it can be apply to just about any other genre and the results are so universal one might even say it's obscuring. But that's the whole idea behind the magical formula that's the super robot anime genre; for you see, by definition, the story structure simply makes every Japanese animation extremely awesome upon combination. It's just that simple yet amazing, it's like magic. For example: by combining fantasy with general mecha genre and you got real awesome fantasy anime like The Vision of Escaflowne. Combine romance drama with super robot tournament and you got extremely awesome tournament romance drama anime like Mobile Fighter G Gundam. Combine slice of life comedy, science fiction drama, with super robot and you got extremely awesome slice of life comedy science fiction drama anime like Dai-Guard. Anyway, the number of super robot anime genre combination can be as much as the many types of anime genres there are! And they can all be made extremely awesome by combining with the said genre. Personally, on the surface, I think that's what super robot anime genre is all about. It's extremely awesome anime story telling not because of its deep rooted history in Japanese anime subculture, but it just simply is. However, its long line of history does suggest that there's something more to the genre than just its extremely awesome appeal. And that will be a story for another time or, until somebody out there beats me to it. 
Last edited by DomFortress on Sat May 02, 2009 11:33 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18565 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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It would probably help if you clarified what defines the Super Robot genre as a distinct subset of the general mecha genre. What, exactly, differentiates them from other mecha titles?
(I ask this because I wouldn't, by any stretch, consider Visions of Escaflowne to be a Super Robot title.) |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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Beyond Good and Evil Unlike just a general mecha genre like the original Mobile Suit Gundam in 1979, which the mechas are mostly just tools with distinct functions, the main mechas in the already established super robot anime genre symbolize incredible powers that's beyond human concept of good and evil. This is in fact one of the preceding tradition and the principle philosophy of the super robot anime genre; what makes an incredible power to be good, when it can also be evil? And to that extend, what is good and what is evil, when both sides are equally matched in ability and in power? This is something that the Western philosophers and historians had problem distinguishing, when using both logic and historical facts on our reasoning and our history of wars. But for Mitsuteru Yokoyama it was the trial and tribulation of a young boy who was entrusted with a WWII super robot weapon in the 1963 Gigantor. And in 2003, anime director Yasuhiro Imagawa revived the title under its original name Tetsujin 28th and portrayed the original story about a young boy's redemption for the sins of humanity, with a modernized directorial style and art presentation. This also demonstrated a precedent that historically speaking, the general mecha anime genre about war was in fact a distinct subset of the super robot anime genre about good and evil, and not the other way around. In a general mecha anime, the side who won the war are portrayed as the good guys. But in a super robot anime, the good guys are the heroes who took a firm stance for what they believed in that's greater than the sum of their parts. Last edited by DomFortress on Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RedLeader
 Posts: 310 |
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Lookin' good, Dom!
 But let me answer Key's question with a more.. Clincal definition, if I may.
Robot shows can usually be broken down into two very distinct camps: Super and Real. Real Robots, as defined by Mobile Suit Gundam, are robots that are at least somewhat technically plausible and designed from a more realistic sense of science fiction, and Real Robot shows, are usually somber anti-war stories where everything is filled with shades of grey and the characters often doubt even their own side in the war. They usually feature complex political intrigue, character development, and lots of death and grief. Coicedentally, the aforementioned Escaflowne falls into the Fantasy Robot subset of Real Robots where the usually realistic science is replaced with fantasy, but the rest of the Real Robot show rules still apply. Other examples of this type of show are Aura Battler Dunbine (the original Fantasy Robot show), Panzer World Galient, and Elemental Lord Cybuster. Super Robots, on the other hand are more like super heroes, on a much larger scale. They are usually made of, powered by, or gifted with some sort of miraculous power that makes them nigh invincible in the beginning of the series, though, the bad guys do eventually start to catch up forcing the inevitable Mid Season Upgrade which makes the robot that much more awesomer. Unlike Real Robots that fight with rifles, bazookas, and swords, Supers usually have eleborate super attacks involving myriad weapons and their own powers. The plots, as Dom said are usually of pure good vs. pure evil, as opposed greed and corruption cutting both ways like in Real Robot shows. The good guys usually have a highly visible base that stands out and a team of scientists usually in charge of maintaining and upgrading the hardware and occasionally trying to figure out a way to thwart the enemy's latest scheme. Like in Supers, people die, but the scale is different from show to show. Maybe only one team member dies, maybe just some close relatives, maybe HALF THE HUMAN RACE, you never know for sure. An additional subset of the Super Robot is the Combining Robot. A Super Robot made of several different vehicles. The first Combining Robot was technically Getter Robo, though, Combattler V set the standard. The idea of this type is that the team is stronger as whole than as individuals and must pool all their strength into fighting the enemy. However, there are exceptions--GaoGaiGar, King of Braves, is technically a combiner, but for 99.9% of the show, Gai pilots GaoGaiGar alone. Other examples of this genre are Super Beastial Machine God Dancougar, Voltes V, and Hundred Beast King Golion (Lion Voltron). And now, for funsies... Supers and Reals in... Super Robot Wars Terms!  (Super Robot Wars is a Strategy/RPG available on various consoles)
Reals usually small, have zero armor and HP and are only saved by their speed and the pilot's skill. Like in Real Robot shows, talented pilots live a long time, not so talented pilots, will raise your repair bill. :p Attacks are primarily ammo based and with maybe one melee move, weak but usually long ranged. Supers, on the other hand are big and slow. They don't dodge attacks well, but that doesn't matter because they're built like tanks! Tons of HP and extra thick armor! Attack power is usually also through the roof and are VERY Energy based so doing a lot of them will run it out of gas fast. And except for Yuusha Raideen, are usually short ranged. Another exception is the Getter Robos which have no armor and like Reals are dependant on their speed to live. And now for the next topic... The Team! 
I have NO idea WHERE the Five Member Team Dynamic came from, lots of shows have it, even the original Gundam, but are much more prevelant in Super Robot shows for some reason. :p Perhaps you already know the archetypes, but let's just review them for fun: The Hero - Charamatic, do gooding, justice-filled guy that will always be... Heroic!
The Jerk - Also known as "The Cool Guy", he usually provides the counterpoint to the Hero, often fighting him, both literally and figuratively. He's always fast with the one liners that cut people's good moods down like Ginsu Knife through a tin can, though he IS a good guy, he's usually... A Jerk. :p The Fat Guy - Big, slow, strong, warm, and always hungry. He can sometimes be the middle child of the group, always trying to make everyone get along. The Chick - The token female, she alone is responsible for romantic insterests, panty shots, nudity, and mini skirts. Depending on the show, she can either nurse the Hero, kick his ass, or both. The Kid - Since a lot of these shows were originally aimed at little kids, his sole job is to be relatable to young viewers and often ask the dumb questions and what have you so everyone can be on the same page. Of course, not all shows use the standard archetypes or only use some of them. In Dancougar, the team is made up of only 4 pilots and the "Kid" is actually not that much younger than the rest of the pilots. Additionally, in some shows, all five members will exist but not all five will actually be pilots. In Getter Robo, for instance, The Hero, The Jerk, and The Fat Guy operated Getter Robo, while The Chick piloted her own machine, and The Kid just watched from the sidelines. As for The Bad Guys... They come in all shapes, colors, sizes, species, you name it. They don't actually have set archetypes, at least none I've ever been able to divine, myself, but are usually made up of a big, scary bad guy and several Generals under him, each of whom will try to out do the other to get the Head Bad Guy's approval. If you've seen Sailor Moon, you've seen this basic set up there too. It's a fairly generic set up that used by other genres as well. Of course, Super Robot Bad Guys are usually over the top, cruel, twisted, and highly WEIRD. Take Mazinger Z's Baron Ashura, for instance. Half man, half woman, cut down the middle. Also of note is that while the good guys might spend half or all the show after the Head Bad Guy, defeating him may awaken and even WORSE Bad Guy hiding in the midst! An example of this is Gurren Lagann's Spiral Nemesis, Great Mazinger's Great Marshall of Hell, and GaoGaiGar's Z Master. Of course, these are just the basic rules of Super Robotdom, not all shows play by it. Some shows, like The Big O, completely ignore these conventions to feel out their own conventions. And if they do, they usually have a unique spin on things that sets them apart from other shows. And... It is now 7:44 AM... And that's all I have for now... Congratulations to ANYONE that got through this wall of text! I salute you! ...From bed! Where I'm going now... Good night... [FALLS OVER ASLEEP] |
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abynormal
 Posts: 427 Location: Louisiana |
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Gosh darn it guys, if you're going to invoke the name Hitchiker's Guide, at least make an attempt at the original's meandering, razor-sharp wit. All I see here is a plain old encyclopedia entry with some lukewarm attempts at humor.
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 24441 |
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Actually, I found RedLeader's post quite informative as somebody who doesn't know that much about mecha beyond having watched NGE and RaxHephon.
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18565 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Yes, RedLeader's explanation is much more what I was looking for.
I can fill that one in. The team concept you describe originates from the non-mecha title Science Ninja Team Gatchaman in the early '70s and is part of the classic sentai (i.e. team) tradition that also fostered more modern titles like Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers. Gatchaman arguably probably also inspired the "combining robot" concept formally introduced by Gett Robo, as it featured a combining/separating airship (the God Phoenix) and, in separate scenes, the five team members combining to make an ultra-powerful attack without their vehicles. Now, if you want to trace this back even further, the origins of Gatchaman lie in the American super-hero team comics of the '70s like Marvel's Fantastic Four, Avengers, and X-Men and DC's Justice League. |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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@RedLeader
Thank you very much for your contribution on the topic of super robot anime genre. I'll embed a link to your post on my original post and give you credit where is due. It's a really good piece that covered a lot of bases on the genre. Especially on the fantasy robot sub genre parts, kudos!
@Key I also would like to thank you with your insightful discovery on the topic as well. And just like RedLeader's post I'll document your post in the OP with a link. And I've also modified my original comment about Escaflowne thanks to your suggestion.
And with that, here's another look at the moral aspect on the super robot anime genre: Master Morality There's a reason why I called my last post about the philosophical aspect of the super robot anime genre "Beyond Good and Evil". And no, it's got nothing to do with the 2003 video game of the same name. But rather, it was due to the fact that the super robot anime genre's principle philosophy on good and evil is shockingly similar to the 1886 publication called Beyond Good and Evil: Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future, written by the nineteenth-century German philosopher Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche. In his book, Nietzsche argued that there are essentially two types of moral ethics, and they are Master and Slave morality;
However, I must warn you, consuming all those anime titles at once might make you a man(or woman) who's infused with super robot spirit. And the resulting consequences might empower you to be a positive individual that will thrive and flourish in our society. Last edited by DomFortress on Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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The Super Robot Spirit!
What a wonderful phrase The Super Robot Spirit! Ain't no passing craze It means happiness Empowering selflessness It's our positive psychology The Super Robot Spirit! When I do get the chance, I'll continue on with the rest of the song. But for now... Positive Psychology First of, as a recently established basic science, positive psychology is a real branch of psychology. And unlike its opposite which is clinical psychology(an applied science that branches out from medical health), positive psychology isn't about curing mental illness but rather, it's about strengthening our minds. So think of it as a fitness program with mental exercises that will strengthen our minds in order for us to stay mentally well and thereby, preventing us from getting mentally sick. Now let's have a look and the Wikipedia's entry on the Application of positive psychology. It talked about how the Character Strengths and Virtues (CSV) handbook developed by the nonprofit Value In Action Institute has identified "six classes of virtue, made up of twenty-four measurable character strengths", which "are considered good by the vast majority of cultures and throughout history and that these traits lead to increased happiness when practiced", can offer "a theoretical framework to assist in developing practical applications for positive psychology." So without delay, here are those various virtues and strength that are good, according to the CSV handbook:
Surprisingly, those various virtues and strength that are all historically and culturally recognized as good, they are also the various themes(the "color" of the anime, what visual elements you'll find in it) in the super robot anime genre, which is what the hard-core super robot anime fans dubbed as the super robot spirit. And the genre had universal appeal(except in the English-speaking US and UK, as according to Vicserr in here) because its themes are all historically and culturally recognized as good. Sounds too good to be true? Well apparently so do the rest of the US and UK by a majority. |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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Why so serious?
...OK, it's anyone here other than me, who's really getting sick and tired of hearing that lame excuse of a popular culture, when it's in fact just a cheap line spoken from a dead actor, that got tossed around and mishandled far too much for its worth? I mean, why shouldn't we get serious for what we like that's the super robot anime genre, when the genre itself wasn't just good, but they're great!(OMG... Tony the Tiger, I totally wasn't expecting that one  ).
I guess sometimes our glass-ceiling was self-imposed. Lack of Leadership by Example The term glass ceiling was first used in the 90's about a limit/barrier that's holding women back from business promotions, yet they can't seem to see it for themselves. But later on it turns out, as women studies shown that even with overall better job conditions and pays, women who were successful in their careers simply choose their families over high paying jobs that would take them away from their families. Because they know what's really important in their lives. And true enough, the super robot anime genre seem to have limited exposure due to lack of new series, even when anime as a whole gets less and less official exposure on real life TV networks, while at the same time it's barreling into virtual internet streaming and online podcast networks. Is anime as a whole loosing its appeal in real life, while the super robot anime genre is loosing its place in anime with its philosophical, moral, and character building spiritual values? Let's have a look at why the the super robot anime genre is loosing its place in the anime fandom from the fan's perspective:
When something as deep and rich and strong and virtuous as the history of humanity's greatest triumph in the super robot anime genre itself, is being turned away by today's North American anime fandom along with the genre itself and what it stands for. Then what's got left in ourselves, for us to advocate our anime subculture from the rest of humanity, when we denied our own teachings of humanity by denying one of our greatest anime history, the super robot anime genre? |
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LeoKnight25
 Posts: 319 Location: Puyallup, WA |
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I agree with most of the points being made here, that older anime needs some serious love in the U.S. Not only the Super Robot genre but, anything else pre-2005. I'm a life long fan of the Super Robot genre, having watched and loved the hell out of Tranzor Z, Transformers, Force Five, Voltron and Saber Rider all before I was 10 years old. But (I hate to have to do this), I watched Shin Mazinger just the other day and I was astounded by the insanity of it. I couldn't make heads or tails of what in the world was going on. Not that it wasn't fun, but damn...it was pretty crazy. I can see where some people are coming from, possibly not having experienced either Yasuhiro Imagawa or Go Nagai stuff before. I don't think it should be dismissed entirely but, I do believe that a little bit of foreknowledge of previous works would help ease the confusion some might have.
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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As for Go(d) Nagai, he's just simply well known for using a lot of mature themes in most of his manga works back then, when Japanese society were still thinking that manga and anime were pretty much just kids stuffs. So just look at it this way; the craziness that you felt when you saw Shin Mazinger, was kinda how we old super robot anime veterans get our kicks by grew up watching super robot anime genre. The feeling of nostalgia can only last for so long, before we old veterans just want to go back and re-watch the old super robot anime series. 
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AU_Gundam
Posts: 54 Location: Cebu, Philippines |
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Ok, first of all, Go Nagai IS a genius. A frickin' genius. A Bloody Genius. GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！
That said, I'd like to supplement some of the statements here regarding the kinds of mechs in anime today. First off, we have the Real Robots. Basically, the definition of a Real Robot stands for something that is realistic. However, considering that the whole giant humanoid mecha thing is realistically absurd due to issues such as weight balancing and working on getting the mobility done right, Real Robots in anime basically stand for mechs that are moreso realistic than their Super Robot cousins in terms of their power level and defense level (Standard Reals tend to be quite flimsy in terms of armor and aren't as destructive as the higher tier Reals), and that majority of their abilities, components, and mechanisms can be explained using some form of standard physics/science. Second off, we have the Super Robots. Super Robots tend to be more towards being the mech equivalents of Super Heroes in terms of capabilities and stats. Basically, they tend to be highly powerful mechs whose inner workings either defy the laws of physics/science or can only be described via scientific anomalies/metaphysics. Generally speaking majority of Super Robots tend to be far more powerful than their Real Robot cousins and most of the time (Higher Tier Reals, however, tend to be more able in fighting and sometimes matching/defeating Low Tier Supers. However, standard SRs are more often than not stronger than even exceptional RRSs.). Another important point is that SRs frequently go beyond the limits of their capabilities, more often than not a symbolism of the pilot surpassing himself, but in physical form and having a profound effect in battle. To throw in another ball, we have two more cases, Mixture and Miscellaneous mecha. Mixture mechs are mechs that tend towards sharing factors from both SRs and RRs. The degrees of mixture can vary, with some swaying notably towards Real and others swaying towards Super. Series like Aura Battler Dunbine, Brain Powerd, and Neon Genesis Evangelion tend to fall under this third camp, as they share factors from both SR and RR camps, though the first two sway towards RR and the latter sways towards SR. Miscellaneous mechs are a rather tricky case. We basically have mechs where aspects of capabilities, inner workings, and systems/components do not seem to respond to either SR or RR. Others just tend to be too eccentric to be RR, yet too "down to Earth" to be SR. Series like Transformers, Vandread, and Zoids tend towards this 4th, rather confusing case. Please not, however, that this is primarily in reference to the mechs and only reflects the individual shows in a few aspects (IE Super Robots in a Real Robot show has happened). Hope I didn't throw in an explosive, chaotic wrench. 
Last edited by AU_Gundam on Thu May 07, 2009 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ribbons
 Posts: 5 Location: Canada |
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I'm a pretty big mecha fan, but I always wanted to know where Big O was categorized. It has a lot of realistic elements but the series became campy whenever the robots appeared.
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Top Gun
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I'd personally qualify Big O as being on the real-ish side of things, if for no other reason than the fact that its somewhat pondering movements are much more what you'd expect out of a multi-story metal behemoth than your standard mecha. (Hell, it even beats a lot of other "real" robots out in that regard, considering how Evas and Gundams go zipping about all over the place.) The majority of its weapons (excluding the spoiler[Final Stage], obviously) are relatively plausible; things like rockets, piston-driven arms, and jet-propelled anchors don't exactly break the bank believability-wise. Most of the show's designs are decidedly old-school; I'd go so far as to classify Big O itself as almost steampunk-esque. That isn't to say that a few of the show's other robots don't trend toward "super;" one of the most memorable moments of the series for me was in the second-season episode "The Greatest Villain," which features Beck wielding a blatant parody of old-school super robots.
(Of course, in the end, the series is no more a traditional mecha than Eva is, so maybe the whole point is moot. )
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