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whiskeyii wrote:

But that's exactly what I mean when he says he offers nothing in return. He just refutes Archer and...leaves it at that. For all the monologues the show indulges in, it just feels odd that Shirou never makes any kinds of declaration about how or why Archer is wrong about Shirou or his wish. And the show just expects us to take it on faith (and Nasu) that a) having Rin with him--which is a whole other can of worms--and b) having to literally fight against an incarnation of his inner demons was enough to give him the mental strength to resist becoming Archer. It's just too simple! That was my main frustration.

I don't think he ever resisted becoming Archer. The show doesn't present him as having avoided becoming a Guardian. He's just not bitter in the same way that Archer was. And if Heaven's Feel is a representation of what happens after UBW, it makes sense.

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The show never seems to go out of it's way to have Shirou work through his doubts in a meaningful fashion and emerge as a changed man--I'd argue that's what the Archer fight is trying to do, but Shirou's simple assertion of "You may be factually correct, but I still think you're (morally?) wrong" just doesn't cut it.

I don't think the show is trying to have him be a changed man in the first place. Shirou absolutely walks down the same path in life that Archer walks down. The difference is that he's now more prepared to accept it and that he presumably doesn't sink into the same pit of bitterness that Archer did.

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P.S. Labeling UBW a snoozefest is a legitimate critique against the material. I don't think the onus for rapt attention is on the viewer if the anime is a slog to get through. That's just a fault of the adaptation. Laughing

It wasn't a slog for me though. Or for any of the people that I recommended it to. Or, for that matter, many of the people that watched it and bought the Blu-rays. It was a slog for YOU.

That's fine if you don't like it, but at some point, the detractors are going to have to start to recognize that more people loved the show than those that hated it. Not a perfect show by any means...but definitely not a bad or even mediocre one.

Slashman wrote:

It wasn't a slog for me though. Or for any of the people that I recommended it to. Or, for that matter, many of the people that watched it and bought the Blu-rays. It was a slog for YOU.

That's fine if you don't like it, but at some point, the detractors are going to have to start to recognize that more people loved the show than those that hated it. Not a perfect show by any means...but definitely not a bad or even mediocre one.

I thought the implication that it was a slogfest for me was pretty clear, but oh well. A slog to get through (for me) = wandering attention span because of bad pacing (to me) = legitimate critique against UBW as a show (for me) = makes it a pretty mediocre show (for me). I've never said that my opinions on this show are all-encompassing, just reiterating how I, personally, me, myself, and I, felt about it. Hope that clears that up for you.

Slashman wrote:

I don't think the show is trying to have him be a changed man in the first place. Shirou absolutely walks down the same path in life that Archer walks down. The difference is that he's now more prepared to accept it and that he presumably doesn't sink into the same pit of bitterness that Archer did.

But WHY is my big question. The answers seem to be a) because he has Rin, b) because he conquered his demons by literally fighting against them in Archer (which leads to a weird "might is right" scenario despite Shirou never seeming to reach a conclusive answer on his own), or c) because he knows about it going in and that foreknowledge prepares him for it.

None of those answers seem satisfactory to me because of reasons I listed prior. If FSN as a whole is about Shirou lessening his death grip on self-sacrificing heroism (as others have told me it is, though I take it you don't see it that way), then none of these answers seem to bring about this change--except maybe the involvement of Rin, who could forcibly stop him from doing dumb things, but I thought the implication of the epilogue was that Shirou would be mostly on his own, and that he'd grown out of his ideals of heroism (because he was an adult, and this is a bildungsroman).

If we don't see this change til after Heaven's Feel, then what was the point of the Archer-Shirou conflict if Shirou doesn't change because of it? If this change occurs only in comparison to Fate's Saber route, then that leaves no context for the folks who didn't see the DEEN adaptation or played the games.

Actually, I might be starting to see my main issue with this series. It's just not standalone, and by golly, it really should be. It's not like Archer's backstory and beef with Shirou plays into other routes, at least from what I've been told. That story is particular to this route alone, and should be resolved in it! But this show has so many dependencies that it leaves me twisting in the wind when it comes to its big-picture message. :/

EDIT: I take part of that back; I feel like killjoy_the's response is reasonable, in that Shirou outgrows his self-sacrificing tendencies, but I still feel like UBW never made much of a case for it. Shirou never muddles through his own feelings to come to a new realization, or if he did, UBW excised that particular internal dialogue.

whiskeyii wrote:

It's not like Archer's backstory and beef with Shirou plays into other routes, at least from what I've been told. That story is particular to this route alone, and should be resolved in it! But this show has so many dependencies that it leaves me twisting in the wind when it comes to its big-picture message. :/

Depends on your point of view. Archer challenges Shirou's view in all routes, but in UBW it's obviously both more direct and given more focus. To me in particular his beef with Shirou gets cleared up well enough in UBW, with Shirou convincing Archer that his cynicism born through his after life does not erase nor invalidate the effort and purity of the original wish. Shirou agrees that giving one's life for his ideal isn't a-ok, but that doesn't mean the ideal itself should be cornered.

Though, aside from their confrontation and the part with Gilgamesh, this notion really doesn't get challenged in UBW. If you feel like it needs to be to give the whole thing proper closure then yeah, you'd have to wait for Heaven's Feel. I personally don't.

killjoy_the wrote:

Depends on your point of view. Archer challenges Shirou's view in all routes, but in UBW it's obviously both more direct and given more focus. To me in particular his beef with Shirou gets cleared up well enough in UBW, with Shirou convincing Archer that his cynicism born through his after life does not erase nor invalidate the effort and purity of the original wish. Shirou agrees that giving one's life for his ideal isn't a-ok, but that doesn't mean the ideal itself should be cornered.

Though, aside from their confrontation and the part with Gilgamesh, this notion really doesn't get challenged in UBW. If you feel like it needs to be to give the whole thing proper closure then yeah, you'd have to wait for Heaven's Feel. I personally don't.

While I agree with this thought (bolded for emphasis), I can't say that I felt it was well executed. If anything, I felt like Shirou just stubbornly persisted in his own ideals and overpowered Archer in terms of sheer willpower, rather than convincing Archer of anything--though I might be remembering incorrectly and maybe the show really did show Archer coming to terms with his past. I can't seem to remember. :/ Like I said before, I think the idea is solid, but the execution is lacking.

As for closure, I think I'm just frustrated that it's not given closure in UBW and just sort of set aside for another route, but that's probably due more to the nature of the source material than anything else. I do find it frustrating when an adaptation fails to stand on its own, though, and relies on being propped up by its source material.

Archer's Unlimited Blade Works clears up during the confrontation, while Archer remembers his final words to Kiritsugu. That's about as strong a way to show it as I can think they could have done.

killjoy_the wrote:

Archer's Unlimited Blade Works clears up during the confrontation, while Archer remembers his final words to Kiritsugu. That's about as strong a way to show it as I can think they could have done.

I'd have to go back and rewatch that sequence, but thanks for pointing that out.

killjoy_the wrote:

Archer's Unlimited Blade Works clears up during the confrontation, while Archer remembers his final words to Kiritsugu. That's about as strong a way to show it as I can think they could have done.

I actually forgot to mention that.

Shirou's UBW is different from Archer's. Shirou essentially helps Archer to remember why he started down that path in the first place.

@whiskeyii I can kind of understand your POV. It does seem crazy that someone who gets shown the future that Shirou does is the one convincing the revealer that it's still the path he wants to take.

Something that pretty much everyone is going to have to come to grips with is that UBW is not the complete story and neither is Fate. Heaven's Feel is where literally everything gets resolved once and for all. UBW is, to me, a look at what and who Shirou really is.

I honestly think that a Fate route would have been a good move. Deen's wasn't exactly right and I think it would likely make the other routes more palatable to people who feel as you do.

whiskeyii wrote:

I was not a fan. Maybe this was just a bad intro to Fate/Stay Night because of UBW's story execution, but for such a long-standing franchise, I didn't see the appeal. I'll be honest, even now, I'm *still* not sure what the resolution between Archer and Shirou was (and I think part of the problem is the long slog it took to get to that point).

As much as I could puzzle out, it seems like Shirou was still resolved to live a life of heroism, even going down the same path as Archer, but the reason why he wouldn't become Archer is because...he was forewarned about how shitty it was going to be? Somehow that gave him the mental fortitude to withstand an almost literal hell on earth?

That just seems like a cop-out. You're not changing yourself to become a better/stronger person or anything--you've just got knowledge no one else does. It's like if you were told when you were going to die--you could just make all your arrangements in advance because you're playing with a slightly loaded deck.

Feel free to correct me (though preferably NOT by quoting the VN at me, as it's apparently plagued with grammar and spelling errors that will only make it harder for me to understand), because boy was I underwhelmed with the way that conflict was handled. Ages upon ages of monologues, and that's the one bit they side step. Rolling Eyes

I find it to be the opposite, everyone's gushing over UBW and bashing 2006 F/SN, and I also wouldn't quote the VN to you, because the fan translations are always prone to bad grammar. I find the official translatiions to be grammatically better than the VN, specifically, the dub, at least for UBW anyway.

Slashman wrote:

@whiskeyii I can kind of understand your POV. It does seem crazy that someone who gets shown the future that Shirou does is the one convincing the revealer that it's still the path he wants to take.

Something that pretty much everyone is going to have to come to grips with is that UBW is not the complete story and neither is Fate. Heaven's Feel is where literally everything gets resolved once and for all. UBW is, to me, a look at what and who Shirou really is.

I honestly think that a Fate route would have been a good move. Deen's wasn't exactly right and I think it would likely make the other routes more palatable to people who feel as you do.

Well, thanks for clearing that up. Not totally sure I have it in me to jump back into the franchise, but it's nice knowing that there is a resolution. ^^;

As far as I can understand it, Fate's route seems to be the one where Shirou changes the least (he just reaffirms his ideals and clings to them unwaveringly), UBW is a middle-ground (he tempers his idealism with realism), and Heaven's Feel is where he spoiler[totally abandons his ideals]. At least, that's what the grapevine tells me.

I'm just frustrated and confused about why UBW (the anime) at least doesn't show when or how Shirou changes into more of a realist, aside from the Gil fight, unless that's supposed to be his culminating moment. I dunno, I just feel like the Shirou from the start of UBW is very much the same as Shirou at the end of UBW philosphically-speaking, so it's hard to tell what--if anything--is supposed to prevent him from turning into Archer.

@mglittlerobin
Thanks for the dub recommendation. I may eventually take a look at that; purple prose just makes my eyes gloss over, so maybe a more straightforward dub will help clear things up for me.

whiskeyii wrote:

Slashman wrote:

@whiskeyii I can kind of understand your POV. It does seem crazy that someone who gets shown the future that Shirou does is the one convincing the revealer that it's still the path he wants to take.

Something that pretty much everyone is going to have to come to grips with is that UBW is not the complete story and neither is Fate. Heaven's Feel is where literally everything gets resolved once and for all. UBW is, to me, a look at what and who Shirou really is.

I honestly think that a Fate route would have been a good move. Deen's wasn't exactly right and I think it would likely make the other routes more palatable to people who feel as you do.

Well, thanks for clearing that up. Not totally sure I have it in me to jump back into the franchise, but it's nice knowing that there is a resolution. ^^;

As far as I can understand it, Fate's route seems to be the one where Shirou changes the least (he just reaffirms his ideals and clings to them unwaveringly), UBW is a middle-ground (he tempers his idealism with realism), and Heaven's Feel is where he spoiler[totally abandons his ideals]. At least, that's what the grapevine tells me.

I'm just frustrated and confused about why UBW (the anime) at least doesn't show when or how Shirou changes into more of a realist, aside from the Gil fight, unless that's supposed to be his culminating moment. I dunno, I just feel like the Shirou from the start of UBW is very much the same as Shirou at the end of UBW philosphically-speaking, so it's hard to tell what--if anything--is supposed to prevent him from turning into Archer.

@mglittlerobin
Thanks for the dub recommendation. I may eventually take a look at that; purple prose just makes my eyes gloss over, so maybe a more straightforward dub will help clear things up for me.

For example:

In Japanese:
Just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right.
In English: I see that being right is the only thing you actually care about.

The English makes more sense and articulates this same point without being so purple prose-y and flowery.

Looking back over the main body of the review, I wish more was said or implied about the extra scene content. There's a greater amount of original added content here than in the first set, some of which could've easily been touched on-- such as the initial summoning of Caster, an expanded conversation between Archer & Suzuki, the conversation between Sella and Leysritt (Illya's maids) before Gilgamesh crashed the castle, and the scene of Gil flashing back to spoiler[the children in the church basement], among others. Those are less superfluous scenes than not, all of which total in several minutes or so. But no, all that's commented on is the leery Caster-to-Saber-gaze in episode 13, which is "significantly extended" by the grand total of maybe 20 extra seconds. (This side-by-side broadcast/B comparison shows the episode 13 scene in question. The extra content starts at roughly the 1:07 mark.) I agree, the extra content-- the slow rising pan from Saber's front, Caster's light pat of her gluteus fold-- isn't in particularly good taste, even though the VN and even the rushed UBW film had already set the precedent for such a scene. But exclusive mention of this scene amidst longer, better added or extended scenes in a review that already heavily berates the story seems unfair.

And speaking of extra content remarked upon, I take some issue with the way the booklet was quoted from to further the analysis of UBW being a larger failure in narrative. Granted, the quoting and paraphrasing of what the booklet says strikes me as funny at some points, but at other times I find a disconnect between what's being said in the booklet versus what's being said in the review about it. Simply partially-quoting that part of "what Miura is said to have been striving for was to merely drop everything that was good about the source material into the anime", for instance, makes the process of adaptation sound more haphazard-to-nonexistent and unfair to Miura's own efforts. From what I understood, the intro, and the following cross-talk, said he did more than just "drop the good stuff in." The whole body of the two-page introduction can be found here and give greater context, in case anyone is interested. Or maybe at least this screen of the paragraph that was quoted from.

----

Regarding the nature of how to view Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works' story... well, as I and others have said, either here or elsewhere, it's not meant to be a decisively stand-alone experience. Or rather, it can be enjoyed as one, in some sense, but it's still a part of some greater whole; thus, it needs the context of surrounding narratives to be more fully appreciated. That it was given the subtitle of the route it was based after and announced at the same time as the Heaven's Feel adaptation should have been among the earlier indicators of that. (They might've skipped over a Fate adaptation in part because we already had the DEEN anime of FSN, which actually isn't so bad as an animated approximation of the Fate route, and then Fate/Zero, which preempts many of the twists and story/character beats laden in the Fate route) Heck, UBW, in its Japanese release of the first BD Box, dedicated an entire novella called Garden of Avalon to a history of Saber not explored in-depth in the anime.

For those whose first FSN experience was UBW, I really do recommend getting into Fate/Zero; ufotable produced UBW keeping that show in mind, and it shows. Heck, at this point, if you just want to stick with anime, DEEN's Fate/stay night may also be very helpful. (And if you do want to see the DEEN anime, you may want to see that ahead of Fate/Zero. Release order y'all.)

mglittlerobin wrote:

For example:

In Japanese:
Just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right.
In English: I see that being right is the only thing you actually care about.

The English makes more sense and articulates this same point without being so purple prose-y and flowery.

The BD version actually changed its subtitle translation of that. Here, the subs said "Your correctness is only for the sake of being correct." There are a lot of other little ways that the BD subs differed from broadcast subs, and the dub includes (and sometimes removes) plenty of words here and there to match mouth flaps and dialogue flow, so I wouldn't say there are any fundamental script differences.

Animerican14 wrote:

The BD version actually changed its subtitle translation of that. Here, the subs said "Your correctness is only for the sake of being correct." There are a lot of other little ways that the BD subs differed from broadcast subs, and the dub includes (and sometimes removes) plenty of words here and there to match mouth flaps and dialogue flow, so I wouldn't say there are any fundamental script differences.

That's good. "Just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right" was always an absurdly awkward way to phrase it anyway. Heck, even as a translation it was rather off. Granted, I still feel that rewording feels a bit awkward as well, but at least it's nowhere near as unintentionally funny as what CR had.

whiskeyii wrote:

P.S. Labeling UBW a snoozefest is a legitimate critique against the material. I don't think the onus for rapt attention is on the viewer if the anime is a slog to get through. That's just a fault of the adaptation. Laughing

If you criticize characterization and assert that the main idea of the show was badly executed, the onus of rapt attention is on you. By admitting that you didn't pay your full attention towards the end you've already declared that your opinion shouldn't be taken seriously.

jl07045 wrote:

whiskeyii wrote:

P.S. Labeling UBW a snoozefest is a legitimate critique against the material. I don't think the onus for rapt attention is on the viewer if the anime is a slog to get through. That's just a fault of the adaptation. Laughing

If you criticize characterization and assert that the main idea of the show was badly executed, the onus of rapt attention is on you. By admitting that you didn't pay your full attention towards the end you've already declared that your opinion shouldn't be taken seriously.

I'd say it is on the show in this case. If a show can't keep the viewer's attention, then that's a problem with the show, not the viewer.

That would have merit if we were discussing pacing here and not the quality of specific late-game content.

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REVIEW: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works Season 2 Blu-Ray