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Best Rivals/Adversaries Tournament: Post-Mortem


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An1fr3ak



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 235
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:53 pm Reply with quote
Olliff wrote:
I could see series based tournaments working, but I would prefer something less subjective than best storytelling since everyone has a different set of things they look for in a show. A similar but more targeted idea that could would Most Well Written. I know Key and a few of the more literary minded people would eat this up. I also think this would be slightly less subjective since you are looking at the technical merits of the writing than something obtuse like best storytelling even though they essentially mean similar things.

Other series based ideas I could see working would be Most Realistic, Most Thought Provoking, or even Most Original, although I could see how that last one could lead to very divided results. Now that I think about it even more we could even hold tournament about which series most adhered to a certain archetype, Biggest Tearjerker, Biggest Mindf***( Most Confusing if you want keep it G rated), or Most Dystopian.

That being said, I still think we have a few solid character based options, such as Biggest Loser, Best Leader, or Biggest Jerk. I would also stay away from ideas that limit the tournament to analyzing only one episode unless you wanted to expand it to Best First Impression since some of us would naturally look beyond just the first episode in our head. Plus one episode is very restrictive and gives very little content to work with.


I like the way you think sir. We are now officially talking bout big money. I especially like the idea of Best First Impression rather than Best First Episode. It has a lot more potential for analysis and discussion overall. But in the end it still is rather restricted due to the fact that it is based on a snapshot, if you will, instead of the entire series[/b]
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:01 pm Reply with quote
First impression could work well too, as long as we set down strict guidelines as to what counts as a "first impression" (my best suggestion would be a certain % of the show, so 13 episode series would be judged on less than 52 episode series, which I think would be pretty fair since 13 episoders have to get into the plot faster and so would probably have more meaty material in episode 4 than the longer ones might). As I said, the idea definitely has some logistics to figure out but I do think it's one that's worth further investigation.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:07 pm Reply with quote
We will not ever do a Best Storytelling or Most Well-Written or anything of that nature. We might as well do a Best Series if we're going to do those. (And besides, I would get very frustrated with such a tournament because Koi Kaze wouldn't win and no other anime series I've ever seen more deserves to.)

We will never do Biggest Tearjerker or anything like that because a) it would involve massive spoilers, b) conceptions of what constitutes a genuine tearjerker vary too vastly, and c) despite B, I can name one scene which couldn't even be challenged in this category and few who have ever seen it in context would disagree with me, so the tournament would be utterly without suspense. (And that brings up the other big problem: the best tearjerker scenes generally require a lot of build-up, so clips would be largely ineffective.)

Concerning Best First Episode: in the case of movie series like The Garden of Sinners and Broken Blade, the first movie would count. And the whole point would be to evaluate the episode's effectiveness as an introduction to the series and its independent storytelling merits.

Now back to doing the preview for Aquarion Evol. . .
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An1fr3ak



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:18 pm Reply with quote
marie-antoinette wrote:
First impression could work well too, as long as we set down strict guidelines as to what counts as a "first impression" (my best suggestion would be a certain % of the show, so 13 episode series would be judged on less than 52 episode series, which I think would be pretty fair since 13 episoders have to get into the plot faster and so would probably have more meaty material in episode 4 than the longer ones might). As I said, the idea definitely has some logistics to figure out but I do think it's one that's worth further investigation.



Well, if we have to make a judgement on a five or six episode anime (i.e. Afro Samurai), things will certainly get interesting. So there will be quite a bit of logistics to work out in the end. I'm just voicing some thoughts now, but in some cases, all you need is the first episode to make a first impression. A good example I can think of, for myself personally, is Samurai Champloo. I think it embodies the animes pace/groove, feel, style and nature/essence very well. The anime itself is extremely well presented, but the first episode remains one of my personal favourites in Samurai Champloo.
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Aylinn



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:44 am Reply with quote
I like the idea of Best First Impression. And I think marie-antoinette's suggestion to judge series on a certain % of the show is good. It sounds fair that shows that have six episodes will be judged, for example, on the first two episodes, twelve episodes shows on the first four episodes, twenty six episodes shows on the first seven episodes etc.

I also find the idea of Most Thought Provoking appealing. This sort of tournament can spur plenty of interesting discussions. And finally I will be able to nominate Angel's Egg. Wink
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Key
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:15 am Reply with quote
The problem with Best First Impression, as defined so far, is that basing the first impression on a certain % of the series penalizes long-running series. Besides, once you get past the first couple of episodes of any series then you're beyond the "first impression" stage anyway.

Most Thought Provoking is much too vague and subjective. Besides, the anime series which could genuinely qualify are few and far between.
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Tris8



Joined: 30 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:54 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
The problem with Best First Impression, as defined so far, is that basing the first impression on a certain % of the series penalizes long-running series. Besides, once you get past the first couple of episodes of any series then you're beyond the "first impression" stage anyway.
Ya, I like the idea of using a % instead of just the first ep but even a modest 10% for Best First Impression would give us over 60 eps for Detective Conan, not to mention Naruto, Gintama etc. I'd be in favor of using a %, but having a cap to limit the number of episodes at say a max of 5 eps. This of course would complicate things and trying to hammer out a cut-off and a certain % we all agree on might be a pain. That's the only reason Im kinda leaning toward Best First Episode.

The only thing with Best First Episode is that it would cut out movies, which would be good and bad.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:59 am Reply with quote
Ever thought about having a small field of say sixteen, dividing them up into four groups of four and have them face off against others in the group round-robin style?

This way we can have a small field of very strong contenders. I don't think repeating arguments three times in a row will be as much of a detriment as one might think.

If the round-robin system is good enough for the rugby and football world cups, why not use it for out tournament? Especially if the subject matter is more subjective or harder to define than what we've used in the past.
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Aylinn



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:19 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Besides, once you get past the first couple of episodes of any series then you're beyond the "first impression" stage anyway.

We can always rename it to Most impressive beginning or something else. Smile
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Ggultra2764
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:30 pm Reply with quote
If we're gonna go into the realm of mentions for areas of anime genres and first episodes, how about we try out Most Historically Significant Anime as in anime titles that brought about something significant to the anime medium and still memorable to this day for such contributions such as the first work of an animation studio or a title that helped bring about a new genre or aspect to the world of anime?
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Key
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:33 pm Reply with quote
Ggultra2764 wrote:
If we're gonna go into the realm of mentions for areas of anime genres and first episodes, how about we try out Most Historically Significant Anime as in anime titles that brought about something significant to the anime medium and still memorable to this day for such contributions such as the first work of an animation studio or a title that helped bring about a new genre or aspect to the world of anime?


While that's certainly a worthy discussion topic, I don't think that's a good one for a tournament format. For instance, it would eliminate virtually any title made in the past few years, as they simply haven't been around long enough to make that much of an impact. The field would be very limited, too, as there's only a couple of dozen titles at most (and arguably less than that) which can genuinely claim that degree of significance.
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:24 pm Reply with quote
Tris8 wrote:
I'd be in favor of using a %, but having a cap to limit the number of episodes at say a max of 5 eps.


That is probably a good idea. I'm just thinking of shows that are 13 episodes or less having an unfair advantage if there was just a straight number.

Also, while I do think a field of 16 would be a bit too small, I still am in favour of a smaller initial field, perhaps even reduced by half. We always seem to good choices not nominated with the number we have anyway and it would not only reduce the same arguments being made over and over again but should help weed out the weaker nominees who are blown out of the tournament in round 1.
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mow123



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:59 am Reply with quote
Don't know when are going to start the official thread to pick the next topic, but from the ideas posted so far Biggest Loser seems like the best in terms of freshness and somewhat objective criteria. I could see Best Leader working as well.

As for the series based suggestions, I could see some of them working, but I agree with Key that Most Well Written wouldn't be a good idea as would Best Anime. Opinions vary too widely. I could see a Most Realistic anime working, and I could also see that topic generate some interesting discussions.


I like the intent behind Most Thought Provoking, but with that word choice it would be too nebulous. I would opt for something like Most Cerebral. With so many anime relying on heavy pathos and tried ol' cliches and tropes; cerebral anime get you thinking with their deep reliance on reasoning and steadfast logos. Plot twists that defy logic and irrational and inconsistent events/choices would narrow down the field. How many anime these days have consistent characterizations and characters that make unwavering logical decisions in the successes and failures? Not enough too much warm and fuzzy moe and cardboard archetypes that defy logic and their own characterization, turning them into shallow plot devices. Of course, having themes that inspire new thought and have grander overall message/theme that gives the anime more meaning would also help separate out the gems from the dross.

With excess of moe abound in recent years, I could see a Most Tsundere or Most Innocent tournament. I would stay away from Most Moe for it's subjective and divisive nature. Also I feel it is too early to repeat a subject when we have many viable ideas and we haven't even ventured into series centric tournaments yet.
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