Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Yaoi
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konkonsn
 Posts: 172 Location: Illinois |
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Just like there are a few good shoujo, there are a few good shounen relationships. But just like there's a lot of sexism in shoujo, there's a LOT of sexism in shounen. -_- Both come from Japan, which has different expectations from the sexes than some of us in America do.
Don't get me wrong...I don't hate most of the female heroines of anime and manga. It's just reading that stuff is very...depressing after awhile. You see these strong girls, and as soon as a guy enters the picture, they stop being strong. And since you're naturally inclined to identify with people similar to you in some way (be it race, gender, sexuality, religion, etc), it makes you feel bad when you read something and you're implicitly told, "Guys only like you if you're meek and servile." I mean, that's what mainstream Japanese stories are there to do; they uphold Japanese norms. Mainstream American media is depressing for the same reason. "Hey, look! Unless you wear a push-up bra, nobody will like you! But if you wear one, don't expect us to take you seriously, you slut." You could be the most hardcore, intelligent feminist out there, but you're going to internalize this stuff after many years of being subjected to it. So it's not a huge surprise that some girls are going to react negatively to characters that portray these things. |
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sunflower
 Posts: 1080 |
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Oh please. Next week are you going to try to psychoanalyze men who like watching two women together? No? Why not? Because it's as worthwhile a topic as women who like yaoi. Which is to say, not at all.
Why can't people just accept the fact that it's some women's fantasies, and drop it? I don't care what your sexual fantasies are or what's behind them. And that's all yaoi is. Some women's sexual and romantic fantasies. I couldn't care less if some people don't "get" it. Why I enjoy it is something I shouldn't have to explain or defend, and I'm tired of people thinking they have to get into my head to find out, because frankly, they haven't a clue. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Yeah guys let's never discuss anything ever. |
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Nanook
 Posts: 19 |
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Hmm. Sexuality of women, huh? Always a touchy topic, I suppose, but certainly an interesting one...
Well, as a homosexual woman, and seemingly the only one to openly post as such in this thread, I am always slightly baffled by the nature of the heterosexual yaoi fangirl. (Perhaps it's the fact that I find the penis utterly repulsive; that, I think, is another tale for another time.) Their unbelievable zeal towards their pornography is really fuckin' weird. Like, thoroughly. Most women are not really permitted, societally speaking, to talk about their sexuality at all, within the bounds of heterosexuality--Sex in the City, and shows similar to that, are the only opportunity for such things to be discussed in a semi-realistic manner-- and yet here we are, with girls screaming their love of anally penetrated men from the rooftops. On the topic of men being attracted to lesbians, which is actually surprisingly relevant to the topic, it was proven in a study (I can't cite which because I don't recall. NO SOURCES, LOLOLOLOL) that men aren't really attracted to lesbians, but rather, to bisexual women. That is, they'd like to have a kickin' threesome. I can only assume that this goes the same way for women, and fantasizing gay men? ...One for each hole? That's a bit crude, sorry. Aaaaaanyway. Yaoi is as ridiculous when it comes to m/m relationships as regular porn is for heterosexual relationships. When people watch hentai, they don't automatically assume that the world is full of busty, willing, subservient women that want to please their every whim-- they wish it were that way, but it's not, and that's why it's a fantasy. To get upset at the portrayal of gays in yaoi is just moronic. I mean, with all due respect, would anyone really want to watch two real men, not actors with shapey bodies or drawings with doey eyes, go at it? Much in the same way that no one really wants to watch actual heterosexual couples have sex, or even actual lesbians, it's not really appealing. Fantasies don't have matted pubes or pimply asses or gigantic labias or premature ejaculation. They have no problems, no issues, and their anal cavities don't tear. It's all of the joy[?] of imagining two penises without the sad reality of bumholes and size problems. As an aside, I don't see why yaoi is being treated like it's such a big thing. I know that we're in a very niche community, here, but it's discussed as though everyone and his grandma was watching the stuff. There are friends of mine, in their mid-to-late teens, who are still appaulled at the idea of watching porn of any kind. It's not socially acceptable for the majority of young women today, not in the least. Perhaps that's why the yaoi fangirls are so horrible and obnoxious-- because they're already outside the societal norm? Because they're already social outcasts and losers? I suspect that's part of the problem. I don't know. That's just my good ol' Dyke-y three pence. |
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yblees
 Posts: 165 Location: New Zealand |
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Aww, come on, it's a fun topic to discuss because everybody has an opinion. Why not join in and give us a clue? I agree with most of what Casey's said, particularly about "some other minority" group to tell stories in order to avoid the cultural baggage associated with being a straight man or woman in society. Plus the attraction of yaoi for some being NOT having to identify too closely with the characters. LULZ @ bonobos. Much as I hate to admit it, I suspect that anecdote is probably true 
I also think it's true the YOUNG WOMEN (ie. teens) are attracted to yaoi as a rebellion thing. Rebellion as in wanting something different and unconventional. Unfortunately, teenage girls also seem to be wired to want "different" things in large groups (which kinda defeats the purpose). I've had this discussion before elsewhere - go look at the ratings of the top ranking shoujo manga(or BL that appeals to teens) compared with top ranking Josei/Mature BL manga. You'll see the shoujo manga has a very narrow rank dispersion compared with works that appeal to older women. Say "Fruits Basket" compared with Okazaki Mari's "Bathroom Guwa", or "Only the Ring Finger" compared with "Ichigenme" or "Hontoni Yasashi" (Truly Kindly). In other words, teen girls tend to vote the same as their peers - gives a whole new meaning to peer pressure doesn't it? Look at Mangaupdates for rank listings. As for screaming yaoi fangirls? Chalk it down to immaturity and excess, misdirected enthusiasm. As with all things, this too shall pass. In a couple of years, it'll all be sooo last year and there'll be a new fad to complain about 
In the meantime, if you see guys or gay couples being harassed, why not step forwards, look the fangirls squarely in the eye and say firmly "That's very rude, please stop right now". That way they'll figure out faster that it's not acceptable. BL recommendations? Moon & Sandals: Fumi Yoshinaga (Look in Ebay for secondhand copies) Let Dai : Won Sooyen (Available online from Netcomics) Rules: Miyamoto Kano (Unlicenced in English, scanlation available) Hydra: Miyamoto Kano (Unlicenced in English, see above) For those with snide remarks about scanlations, there is a translated short story, "Another Rules Story", submitted to the scanlation group By The Mangaka Herself!! So before you make any generalisations, just remember - it depends on the scanlation group, and on what the mangaka herself feels. I won't mention the group here for fear of their site getting spammed - go search if you're interested. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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However, heterosexual women presumably AREN'T repulsed by the male organ as you are so why can't we want to see it in art? Not that I want to see that specifically, but I DO like a nicely drawn ass & drawings that show the guy's bare chest & abdomen down to about there. Because we all know everyone has to like the same thing on this planet, right? Sorry, I've been involved in many discussions of sex at work among my female co-workers. Maybe not explicit terms-we usually stay appropriate, but we get the idea across.
THink what you will. I said it's like having a poster of a movie star on one's wall. Droolworthy, but no nasty attutude. I honestly have never used any yaoi I've read as material for self-pleasure. Sorry if that bursts your bubble. You sound very angry
My husband had a co-worker offer him money to allow the guy to hide in the closet & watch on our wedding night (No, he didn't take the guy up). You also greatly underestimate the sex trade. Ever hear of peep shows? Home sex videos? Bars in TJ purporting to show women & donkeys? Think all these people look like Hollywood stars? People are watching them.
I'm 48. Close enough to grandma age for you? Part of the issue/resentment seems to be the fact so much yaoi gets licensed compared to yuri. A lot of people seem upset at every announcement. Why does so much yaoi get licensed? I say yaoi fans support their licensees. The community seems to promptly remove fansubs. I see many gals talk about all the titles they've bought. When Yuri gets licensed, I see guys whine about whether there will be a dub or not (with threats to not buy if there is no dub. Yaoi fans buy their titles without a dub whether we'd prefer one or not) or how good or bad the translation will be.
It's pretty accepted here in SoCal. (gals watching porn) Sorry for your living in some horrid backwater community? You do sound rather angry & bitter about it. Realistically mid-teens aren't supposed to have their hands on yaoi. Officially all of the explicit titles say "Absolutely not for those under 18"
I was married for almost 21 yrs until my husband died. I have a kid. Don't believe I'm a social outcast nor a loser. My teen's actually the one who got me reading yaoi (Gravitation) back when it was first released here (I loved the insanity) & she seems to have more than enough friends. Her friends who like yaoi seem well-adjusted also. Why do you feel such a need to put down people you obviously have absolutely no grasp of? Need to put us down to make yourself feel better? We really don't care. I learned that ages ago that the idiot laughing at you when you fall on your ass isn't worth the time it takes to blush. The person who offers a hand & asks if you're ok is a much better human being. I sort of see a lot of similarity between the screaming Beatlemaniacs of the early 1960's & the younger, more vocal yaoi fans. None of the older gals I speak with seem to believe they should harrass anyone into kissing, etc. I just don't see why most of the yaoi community I know (older, mature) seems to be so invisible to everyone else in the anime/manga coimmunity. We're no fun? We don't feed the stereotype so people who hate yaoi have yet one more reason to put it down?
No, you don't know us, do you?
I hope so. I pray what you've expressed doesn't represent the entire lesbian community. |
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posterior_praiser
 Posts: 296 |
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Horrible, obnoxious social outcasts and losers? Wow. I know plenty of well adjusted people with real lives and even *gasp* children and husbands who enjoy yaoi. Clearly you underestimate the diversity of the fanbase, and of anime fans in general. Yaoi fangirls aren't that bad. No worse than those screaming girls harassing Robert Pattinson because they can't distinguish between an actor and the fictional vampire they want to be their boyfriend. Yaoi used to be more of an 18+ thing, and the older fans are perfectly sane, as are the majority of the under 18 fans. Also...not conforming to societal norms about sexuality does not make these girls (whom I was among when I was a teen) freaks at all. And as a lesbian woman who said in her own post that she thinks the penis is disgusting, I hardly see how you could understand the appeal, nor should you pass judgment on something you clearly don't understand and people you clearly despise. |
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poonk
 Posts: 1490 Location: In the Library with Philip |
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4737 |
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I don't know about that supposed study, but that isn't the case for me, at least. I don't find girl-on-girl images attractive because I'm looking for a threesome (though like many guys, the thought is an intriguing one, even if it's only fantasy)...I find them attractive because they feature naked women (which I find attractive) having sex without a wang (which I don't find attractive) interspersed. Simple as that. |
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yblees
Posts: 165 Location: New Zealand |
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Wow Nanook, your post sure got some reaction!
Cut her some slack ladies, I think it's admirable that she writes what she thinks - that's what discussion forums are for after all. Reading through the previous posts, I think most people feel the screaming fangirls who frequent conventions ARE obnoxious. And most people know that they are just the noisy minority. I read yaoi, but I don't identify with those "fangirls". For one, I'm way too old to think of myself as a girl anymore 
What Nanook's post shows me most of all is that everyone has their preferences, and find it very hard to understand other peoples preferences. This is why we gather to discuss and learn - yes? @ Top Gun. My husband has a preference for harem manga, er, with ech - we had a talk about this, harem hentai vs yaoi. I think he would agree with you on the naked women thing
We did a manga exchange once. I read Femme Kabuki, he was supposed to read Same Cell Organism. I thought Femme Kabuki was a pretty good story, but the frequency of the random H situations were irritating & I was never interested enough to read past volume 2. He got to the first kissing scene in Same Cell, yelled WTF..etc, and tried to stuff my precious book under the bed because of psychological trauma.... Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I thought this was all really funny, but I've never asked him to ready any of my BL books since. To each their own, definitely. |
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gynocrat_rex
 Posts: 57 Location: Texas |
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Please, do not speak for 'other women' when talking about yourself. "Many Women" do not read BL because they have jealousy issues that come to a head when they see a female in the mix. That's the most lame thing I've heard in ages. :/ "many women" don't think that way, perhaps high school girls do--but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt by thinking they're not that shallow. If jealousy is a driving factor, can you explain why there are so many lesbian fans and creators in BL? Can you explain why there are so many female fans who also promote hentai and other forms of ero manga and comics? Not trying to flame, but please-- watch using the word 'many'.
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war angel
 Posts: 6 |
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I have only just recently started reading Yaoi and been sort of surprised that I liked it. I thought I hated anime romance, but it turns out I only hate shoujo romance
I think that women are sort of in a catch-22 when it comes to sex - if women are empowered enough enjoy sex they risk being labled sluts or seen as disrespecting themselves. The heroines in the shoujo romances I have read are often in this position of "should I" or "shouldn't I" and the reader by relating to them gets vicariously put in this position as well. Yaoi gets rid of all these complications - pure fantasy. I also second the opinion that shoujo heroines tend to be weak and somewhat insulting to the female gender. Also, I don't think anyone mentioned the potential appeal of men being depicted as vulnerable emotionally and physically, especially in a society like Japan but in America as well. The guys in Yaoi seem more vulnerable than the stoic badboys common in shoujo romance (I think Fruits Basket is a notable exeception) |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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The very top thread in this forum is a call for politeness. Suggesting an entire genre's fans are social outcasts & losers JUST because she can't comprehend their liking something she finds disgusting when homosexuality IS recognized as a minority in this country is pushing that (meaning a majority of females in this country would be more excited by a naked man than a naked woman & she finds this uncomprehensible?) Yes, she has the right to her opinion, but it's just sad she can't grant the same understanding to others she apparently expects to be granted to her.
And I also am way, way past my screaming-at-teen-idols phase (1970's), but I actually still remember what it was like to be 15-17 & all giddy over stuff I liked. The screaming I do get. The telling people to do stuff? Yeah, sadly that is actually very much HUMAN behavior-kids with precious little judgement away from parental control. How many times have you seen movies of say-a suicidal character & someone in the audience yells "Jump!" Maybe we have Rocky Horror to thank for this. Maybe it's video games where the kids have control over the characters to do what they will. I seem to recall more than one bully session in real life where the kid being picked on is ordered to do something horrible such as eat bugs or excrement or maybe strip or go kiss the ugliest kid in class. So do I like the obnoxious fangirls? I view them on the better side of bullies, but also hope beyond hope in 5 yrs or so they will have matured enough to be totally appauled at their former childish behavior. (not the screaming. That's giddy fun. God, how old am I? I remember being grossed out as a teen when I read the women my mother's age threw underwear at Tom Jones) On the other hand, I have actually only ever seen a handful of the so-called screaming fangirls & don't actually ever recall suffering or seeing glomping of anyone or the harrassment of gays at the con I've attended here in town for 7 or 8 yrs. My child(around 12-14 yrs old at the time) did accompany a younger (by 1 or 2 yrs) friend who was stalking a cute guy one year & I ordered my child to leave the situation & then discussed the wrongness of the situation (checking out a cute guy-completely normal. Hecking him to create a way to talk to him? No. Not that my child was saying anything, but she was providing the moral support/safety in numbers mentality. I doubt the other girl would have been brave enough to do this had she not had 2 friends with her. Let the friend's mom correct her child)
I do believe the majority of yaoi fans, being mature women, do conduct themselves properly. I also find most of them to be far more tolerant that Nanook which I do find strange because she IS in a minority & SHOULD understand her opinions are not as common, though she has every right to them. She actually came off closer in attitude to one of those obnoxious, pushy teens in her inability to comprehend others MIGHT have different tastes than she does.
I think part of the problem IS the fantasy side. I've always suspected from things the males I've been around have said & from the few porn mags (particularly stuff in the range of Hustler) that the idea of lesbian porn in those mags IS the guy making it a 3-some, however, just as a lot of gals can't wrap their heads around ADMITTING they are SOMETHING(I don't really buy jealous, but it is in that ballpark) of the females in shojo, some guys would never admit to wanting to have at the 2 gals having sex in the zine they're reading. Only recently have I seen the no schlong comment, but that also makes sense considering the uncomfortable stance a lot of guys seem to have with male nudity. (I've heard guys talk about tunnel vision-stare STRAIGHT ahead-at the group urinals or even being unable to use them, preferring a stall). When the editor of Be Beautiful was trying to explain yaoi at Comic-con waaaaaaaay back when they launched SHE said when some women read shojo they feel competitive with the heroine & I thought-no way, but NOW I understand what she meant & frankly I've been there for ages. I HAVE for many, many years hated those soap opera bimbos with their brains between their legs & also the stupid ingenues who are too dense to get SHE'S NOT YOUR FRIEND, SHE'S AFTER YOUR GUY/LIFE/WHATEVER. I can't watch soap operas--haven't since the 80's. Am I JEALOUS of the females? No way in hell. Am I insulted by the portrayal of females THAT stupid? Probably. Do I just want to slap the idiots? Yep. So watching soaps is entirely too agravating. Raises the blood pressure too much. And Shojo is FULL of those ingenues. God knows I've tried. I have about 2000 volumes of manga, a lot of it shojo. Finally I realized how empty so much shojo really is. I have started soooo many shojo titles with high expectations only to have the title swiftly fall into the same bland pattern as all the oher shojo titles out there. It's hard. It's an on-going struggle as I read the synops of a new title NOT to "give it a try" Tempting, tempting, but I remind myself of all the series I've read & boxed up, keeping only titles with re-read potential on my crowded shelves--most of those are yaoi & shonen. Most of the shojo is pretty bland & similar & takes the path of least struggle for the author. I LOVED Fruits Basket once. ONCE. Long, long ago. Do like the anime. I do have a good amount of harem titles myself on the anime side. Toru is insipid. Rin is stupid & annoying. Pig-girl (I knew her name once, but have abandonded it) is annoying. Akito needs to just die. It should have ended several volumes ago. I usually LIKE longer series, don't feel many get going until at least the 3rd or 4th volume, but one of the problems in shojo is they go TOO long for the author's talent. Many, many times after finishing a shojo title, I look back at it & think "That could have been a GREAT story had the writing been tighter, less meandering along the way" which is a real issue in manga because the format IS weekly/monthly/bi-monthly. I remember in Marmalade Boy & Kodocha both authors complaining at being ordered to drag things out & both titles (which actually rank among my favs) do suffer in those drag-out-the-plot areas. A lot of yaoi is one-shots & that one volume itself can be a collection of stand-alone stories. I have no real issue with that because that is all I am looking for in yaoi-a quick little waste-of-time entertainment/guilty pleasure/whatever. I actually allow Let Dai to pile up to read in bunches (2-3 volumes at a time) because it IS such a gut-wrenching title & not an I-have-an-hour-to-kill title. Most yaoi is like a piece of candy or a Dove Bar-enjoy it thoroughly & completely & be satisfied. |
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pixieblade
 Posts: 6 Location: california |
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Heavy Emotions/Porn: Junjo Romantica, Wild Adapter, Descendants of Darkness, No Money
Light: Switch, Demon Diary, La Esperanca, Gakuen Heaven; Silver Diamond, Ice Cold Demon's Tale Pointless Smut: Wild Rock, Love Neko, Lamento, Pet on Duty, Man's Best Friend, Crimson Spell They're all good in their own way. If you want a nice, easy entry to the genre, I'd suggest Demon Diary. It's mainly cutesy humor with no 'touching,' but it brings up the question about what is 'love'. Silver Diamond and Ice Cold Demon's Tale are sweet and sexy without having any sex shown at. There's only a few light kisses, so another good intro. If you want a roll off the bed laughing with lots of crazy situations and sex, Junjo Romantica is the way to go. If you want angsty emotional drama, La Esperanca will make you invest in Kleenex. Wild Adapter is massive innuendo and lots of yakuza, created by Minekura-sensei (Saiyuki). The pointless smut category is really dependent on personal taste, but there are so many out there that it might be beneficial for you to go to someplace like http://yaoibl.blogspot.com/ and scan their listings. I go by style and story more than sex, but it's all up to the individual, that doesn't stop me from having all of the above in my collection though. 
You can also check out my anime blog, I show examples and give reviews of various shows/mangas, all BL/Yaoi ones are listed as 'Schoolwork'. www.blacademy.blogspot.com |
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Top Gun
Posts: 4737 |
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Ah, the fascinating puzzle that is urinal etiquette. Many treatises have been written on this conundrum. 
Seriously, though, I think the "threesome potential" fantasy is applicable to many guys who seek out girl-on-girl material. Hell, I'd be lying to myself if I said that I didn't mentally react to the suggestion with something like, "Ooh, awesome." I'm not exactly looking for casual sex myself, though, so that isn't the prime driving force behind my own enjoyment of such images. |
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