Forum - View topicThis Week in Anime - When Your Fav Anime Protagonist is Problematic
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Shay Guy
 Posts: 2240 |
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By the way, since I keep forgetting to ask: Nick, reverse image search says those last screenshots are from Macross Delta, but what the HELL is that copyright line? I Googled part of it, and it looks like the text is:
Does Big West seriously mandate that whole thing? Which never actually spells out the word Macross? "No, only the TV series is copyrighted by BW/MFP・M; the feature films and Labyrinth of Time are copyrighted by BW/MFP. Totally different. No, we won't say what the second M is."
You know, I should watch this properly someday -- according to my records, I've only really seen the first four episodes, in January 2011, and I've seen people I respect gush about how it handles its themes. It definitely glorifies in spectacle, and I remember one action scene where Rock's narration had an air of "the carnage she wreaks is horrific, but she looks so stunning doing it" -- but Breaking Bad often invites you to root for Walt, too, so there's room for nuance in these things. |
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lossthief
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 1440 |
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I dunno if it requires they require it or not, but that's the Copyright line they include at the bottom of the official Macross Delta page on the Macross franchise portal site. Could possibly get away with just "©'15,'17,'21 BW/MDP" but I prefer to cover my bases with this stuff.
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2-2Distracted
Posts: 148 |
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You mean the same Eris who: 1. He had sex with when she was a child, and therefore raped her? 2. Left him so she can gain character development in order to be a better girlfriend/spoiler[future wife]? 3. Is one of the kids he sleeps with, spoiler[successfully impregnates AND marries]?  you mean that Eris? Because we've seen how "effective" her taking him down a peg or 3 has been so far, so personally I'm not going to hold my breath that any she does to him next will actually help when all she has done is respond like some cliché tsundere or 'violent girl' trope to his garbage acts of sexual assault.
As for the other women, in this case Sylphie, they're no better when they're openly complicit in his bullshit if those he's doing this stuff to somehow "deserve it". Some of the women in his life are little girls he groomed, the most any growth and development he's actually going to get is going to come from the Turning Point events and even then that growth will have to do with him being a more productive member of his new life and not much else. |
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Top Gun
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There's no doubt that Black Lagoon revels in its violence (that helicopter scene near the start is one of the best things I've ever seen), but it's just as likely to pause and force you to think about what a lifestyle like this would entail. The Roberta's Blood Trail OVA that finishes off the anime is particularly harrowing in that regard. |
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Gamen
Posts: 253 |
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In contrast to what one person said, even Keyaru has good qualities; at the same time that he's a complete monster, he also has most of the attributes of a hero, like courage and determination, to the point that very few people in-universe, even most of those closest to him, suspect he's anything but a savior, a selfless hero fighting against two evil empires, much less one that engages in rape, torture, and brainwashing in secret, that acts primarily for utterly selfish reasons. If you cut out his internal monologue and his private sadism, you'd still have a show, if a very different (and somewhat shorter) one. Which is what I think was (mostly) Steve's point, that there's usually something about a good villian/scumbag protagonist (or antagonist, for that matter) that makes them interesting. If you can't have growth, you need depths. ...though flipping Keyaru around, while looking at him one way he's a monster with heroic qualities, the other way he's just a hero that gets away with being a selfish monster with no harm to his reputation. 
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NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2458 |
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I think no one's really disputing that having villain/scumbag protagonists can be interesting, though; I think it's pretty well-accepted that a villainous protagonist can be very thought-provoking, or even just fun and different. But what is disputed is whether a story that just hands a protagonist everything they want and does nothing to challenge their grotesque desires, or even offer the slightest counterbalance or meaningful opposing voice to them, and which is written and framed as if it is a propaganda piece inviting you to celebrate with them, is interesting or well-written, if it deserves to be called a 'character study' and lauded for its supposed depths, etc.
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AQuin1904
Posts: 269 |
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On second thought, how reasonable is it to lump all of these into one category? Protagonists who make frustrating decisions, antiheroes on paths of self-destructive violence, and protagonists who are just kind of scummy don't really seem like they have a ton in common. Like, would you compare Grettir Ásmundarson to that dude from The Magus by John Fowles (whose name I forget because only the maybe 10% of that book spent reflecting on WWII was any good) to Esteban Trueba from The House of the Spirits?
Man, I love Ranma 1/2, but you can't pretend that Happosai stealing underwear and spying on girls was ever clever or tasteful. It's the same level of humor and it's the least funny part of both series. A better comparison to Mushoku Tensei Man would probably be Inuyasha's Miroku, though. He constantly groped women as a gag (also not a very good one, although Inuyasha's doesn't have Ranma's comedy highs for contrast) but was also meant to be cool, sympathetic, and a good person, and he eventually ended up with one of the women he kept groping. The obvious counterpoint on the macro level is that it's easy to list lines one crossed and the other didn't. But if you're going to highlight "vulgarity" as the dividing line, then that's a question of comedic taste, not morals. |
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Negaduck
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I guess as long as the narrative acknowledges the true nature of the main character, and throws up railblocks due to their actions to incite change or consequences, that's the most important part.
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Kadmos1
 Posts: 13590 Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP |
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How might one go about making a problematic lead character without them being an -ist, a murderer, a pervert, etc.?
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2458 |
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I don't see why any of these things in themselves are deal-breaking problems to be avoided. The issue is when media seems to want you to celebrate with the main character when they do evil things, not that they do evil things at all. i.e., as usual, it is about framing, not content. |
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oilers2007
Posts: 117 |
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So if a character like Son Goku who isn't really interested in sex himself does things like strip Bulma naked to check to see if she has testicles or not, or teleports into her bedroom while she's naked to ask her a question and gets confused why she gets angry with him be considered problematic even if he himself isn't into it because we as the audience are supposed to 'celebrate' it by laughing and finding it funny or sexy? Ill be honest and say I've never heard the word 'problematic' used outside the internet, and it's always used in a context of political correctness or something like it. How would you make a pervert character do that stuff without 'celebrating' it in some form like fanservice or humor for the audience. |
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lossthief
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 1440 |
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In the case described here it's not so much the character that would be subject of criticism, but rather that plot beat/scenario itself. Similar to when hapless harem leads trip into boobs or walk in on a girl changing, the character himself isn't really a factor. Instead the criticism would probably be "why was this scene necessary?" or "Why is violating this character's privacy or bodily autonomy meant to be funny to the audience?" rather than saying anything about either character involved. |
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2458 |
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The word 'problematic' is definitely most common with a specific subset of literary/media critics. I don't think it's super important to get hung up on the word, though; it isn't a term I use very often, but I share many of the concerns of people who do use it, and for a column like this I guess I am not sure what alternative one-word synonym captures the issue equally well. In any case, I think it's easiest and clearest to work with examples (e.g., Rudeus in MT is a particularly clear-cut one, lately), and to just say precisely what is meant rather than relying on buzzwords, when in actual conversation.
I think those examples with Goku aren't really him being perverted (since, as you point out, he's not interested in sex); they feel tone-deaf as modern comedy to me, but your mileage may vary there. I do think using those kinds of setups to invite the viewer to leer at Bulma and find it sexy feels somewhat more objectionable; Goku's obviously not trying to sexually harass her, but building a world where he can expose her so the viewer can appreciate her experiencing a situation that from her p.o.v. feels like sexual harassment is kinda.. like, it feels as if the show is using 'But it's fiction!' as a roundabout excuse to write a situation where the viewer can appreciate and enjoy sexual harassment? Which, you know, so long as the viewer makes a really clear distinction between fiction and reality, there's no reason that kind of portrayal for enjoyment should be illegal or anything, but it is also clearly playing to base vices, and not really saying anything deep or nuanced. I don't know if "pervert" is quite the right word (in the, like, ecchi stereotype sense of that term, which seems actively built to play into these base, simple vices), but I do think it's entirely possible to have protagonists who are deeply sex-obsessed, or even sexually abusive, and yet have your show be well-written. I recall feeling this way about Scum's wish; I think the primary distinction between it and something like "Haha look at this sexy lady getting sexually assaulted by Goku who doesn't view it as sexual assault"-style jokes is that Scum's Wish generally seems to be very aware that its cast are broken people, and that they are mistreating one another; that it wanted to explore this brokenness and trauma, and not hide from it, but also not make it seem less important than it was, or funny or silly or something when it isn't. EDIT: I think it's also possible to have very 'sex-positive' and sexually charged protagonists who handle it in a healthy way and have plenty of in-world sex/sexually charged interactions. I honestly can't think of a single one of those off the top of my head, though; authors seem to do negative much better than positive here, in my experience, which is kind've curious. |
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Avec ou Nous
Posts: 141 |
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In general, negative things tend to be more interesting and funny to watch. Tom and Jerry trying to kill each other and hurt each other is a lot more interesting than the later attempts of the franchise of them being friends and saving little girls from their evil step parents or whatever the 90s movie was about. Master Roshi, Happosai, Takeshi, Sanji, Miroku, Mineta, they're all fun characters to watch precisely because of how depraved and degenerate they can be. I'm not sure what a sex-positive version would be. Maybe a Gigachad type character who's constantly having sex or something to the point it's inconvenient to him how often girls throw themselves at him and he can't take one step outside without being swarmed. I would say Parco Folgore in that regard but he's also a huge pervert that gropes people.. but they like it and ask for it so it's okay, I guess? |
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2458 |
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Those aren't really examples of what I was referring to as 'negative'; I meant something more like Scum's Wish, which was both negative (meaning, the sexual behavior was abusive and bad in a you-should-not-do-this-in-the-real-world sense) and well-written. The examples you list are negative and very poorly written, in my opinion; they're superficial disrespectful leering/slapstick/sexual abuse, and the shows play them as straight comedy, but it's usually both unimaginative and more gross than funny.
What I was saying I could not think of a good example of are anime that have a character who is extremely horny, sexually successful, and yet whose life is well-written, as opposed to when 'negative' examples are used to explore trauma and toxic relationships, as in SW. I'm sure there probably is one, but nothing comes to mind. |
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