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Double standards


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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:56 am Reply with quote
abunai wrote:
Before anyone is too quick to make excuses on my behalf, and to call it "a regrettable loss of temper", let me point out that I do not in any way agree that I acted unreasonably, nor was my temper at any time out of control. An unfair attack was made upon a colleague, and I defended him. When the response to that was rudeness, I responded with a completely justified tongue-lashing.


Are you confirming that you feel it is acceptable to break the ANN rules if you feel it is justified then? If you could in a simple yes/no manner confirm or deny this it would be very helpful.

Quote:
Don't try to pretend that you are doing me a favour, ikillchicken, by claiming that I acted without knowing completely what I was doing. That's just a back-handed way of disrespecting me, and it's not going to fly --


If you're going to take offense at the suggestion that like every other human being on this planet, you do in fact make mistakes then I expect anything I say to you will constitute disrespect.

Quote:
I never say or do anything of which I am ashamed.


Every human being say's and does things at some point that they regret and as a result feels ashamed. It's because nobody is perfect. I very much doubt you are the exception.

Quote:
You don't care for me, ikillchicken, and that's your privilege (and I assure you, the feeling is completely mutual), so don't pretend to act as if you have my best interests at heart -- it is a transparent lie. And don't presume to speak for me, it is not among your rights.


But it's apparently your right to presume to tell me how I feel. Furthermore, you presume to know what my intentions are. I am genuinely trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Yet because you refuse to do the same, you have turned my attempt at being reasonable into something else to take offense at.

You will also notice upon re-reading my post that I never said this is definitely the case. I specifically stated "...if he simply made a mistake once..." So seeing as I'm not speaking for you, could you please return the favor and not make assumptions about me.

Quote:
As for the issue of politeness, I doubt anyone can point to anything that I wrote which (unless quoted out of context) is rude. There's a difference between "rude" and "not nice". You can be perfectly harsh without ever being impolite.


Agreed. However as I said, this is not an issue of rudeness. This is about crossing the line and making personal attacks on another poster. Something that is not allowed on ANN regardless of context. I challenge you to tell me that if a user told somebody they were acting like an "insufferable twit" and told them to take their opinion and "put it somewhere indelicate" that they wouldn't get at least a harsh warning and a lecture about the rules if not an outright ban regardless of context.

EDIT: Fixed. I feel my point still stands.


Last edited by ikillchicken on Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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abunai
Old Regular


Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 5463
Location: 露命
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:43 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Are you confirming that you feel it is acceptable to break the ANN rules if you feel it is justified then? If you could in a simple yes/no manner confirm or deny this it would be very helpful.

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

You are not asking a question, you are indulging in rhetoric, and I don't intend to cooperate.

ikillchicken wrote:
Quote:
Don't try to pretend that you are doing me a favour, ikillchicken, by claiming that I acted without knowing completely what I was doing. That's just a back-handed way of disrespecting me, and it's not going to fly --


If you're going to take offense at the suggestion that like every other human being on this planet, you do in fact make mistakes then I expect anything I say to you will constitute disrespect.

If I had even the slightest iota of belief that you were well-intentioned, I might think otherwise. But the fact is, I don't.

ikillchicken wrote:
Quote:
You don't care for me, ikillchicken, and that's your privilege (and I assure you, the feeling is completely mutual), so don't pretend to act as if you have my best interests at heart -- it is a transparent lie. And don't presume to speak for me, it is not among your rights.


But it's apparently your right to presume to tell me how I feel. Furthermore, you presume to know what my intentions are. I am genuinely trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Yet because you refuse to do the same, you have turned my attempt at being reasonable into something else to take offense at.

Are you claiming to like me? No? I thought not. In that case, I am not speaking for you, I am observing a fact. You don't like me, and I don't like you, and that is an undeniable truth. Since that is the case, it is presumptuous of you to disingenuously pretend to debate as if you have my best interests at heart. We both wish the other would go jump in a lake. Can you deny that?

And have you stopped beating your wife, by the way?

ikillchicken wrote:
You will also notice upon re-reading my post that I never said this is definitely the case. I specifically stated "...if he simply made a mistake once..." So seeing as I'm not speaking for you, could you please return the favor and not make assumptions about me.

"If" is such a handy word.

If I were to suggest that using "if" to avoid responsibility for your words is the act of a coward, it might be considered rude. Insufferably rude. But of course, I have that handy little "if".

No?

Don't use "if" to avoid responsibility for your words.

ikillchicken wrote:
Quote:
As for the issue of politeness, I doubt anyone can point to anything that I wrote which (unless quoted out of context) is rude. There's a difference between "rude" and "not nice". You can be perfectly harsh without ever being impolite.


Agreed. However as I said, this is not an issue of rudeness. This is about crossing the line and making personal attacks on another poster. Something that is not allowed on ANN regardless of context.

As already noted earlier, it's not across the line just because it's not nice. Being polite is one thing, being nice is another.

ikillchicken wrote:
I challenge you to tell me that if a user told somebody they were acting like an "insufferable twit" and told them to take their opinion and "put it somewhere indelicate" that they wouldn't get at least a harsh warning and a lecture about the rules if not an outright ban regardless of context.

They would, indeed -- if, as already noted, this was not a response to a troll. Then, as already noted, we'd lecture on the rules to the user in question. And ban the troll.

Of course, banning is a lot rarer than people seem to think. A lot of people who habitually troll are still around, even though plenty of moderators have argued for their removal.

You, for instance, are still here.

- abunai
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:53 am Reply with quote
abunai wrote:
And don't presume to speak for me, it is not among your rights.


abunai wrote:
But if you talk crap to me, or one of my fellow moderators, I won't let you walk away unscathed.


But apparently you can speak on behalf of the other Moderators, butt into their fights and throw fuel on the fire even after the original conflict is over and the two guys have made amends. I find that an interesting case of a double standard (trying to keep my post at least marginally on topic here).

abunai wrote:
If you think it's tough on you, it's just too bad. Don't screw up, then.


Yes, well, when you threaten to ban people for relatively minor offences (as you have done in the past), the definition of "screwing up" is rather fluid. I suppose you could then define it as "whatever happens to catch my attention that I do not like". Which not only is unfair to those with bad luck, it is not a system that inspires much trust or confidence. And you kind of need those to give your position a moral legitimacy, which happens to be the most powerful Moderation tool around (in my humble opinion anyway).
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abunai
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Joined: 05 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:11 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
abunai wrote:
And don't presume to speak for me, it is not among your rights.


abunai wrote:
But if you talk crap to me, or one of my fellow moderators, I won't let you walk away unscathed.


But apparently you can speak on behalf of the other Moderators,
butt into their fights and throw fuel on the fire even after the original conflict is over and the two guys have made amends.

Get your facts straight. That happened afterwards.

dtm42 wrote:
I find that an interesting case of a double standard (trying to keep my post at least marginally on topic here).

This thread ought to have its title changed to "catnip for trolls" -- it's bringing you all out in force.

dtm42 wrote:
abunai wrote:
If you think it's tough on you, it's just too bad. Don't screw up, then.


Yes, well, when you threaten to ban people for relatively minor offences (as you have done in the past), the definition of "screwing up" is rather fluid.

Again, get your facts straight. Moderators can't ban -- or we would not be having this conversation. We can only suggest bans. And yes, you may take that to mean that your name has been mentioned in that regard.

dtm42 wrote:
I suppose you could then define it as "whatever happens to catch my attention that I do not like". Which not only is unfair to those with bad luck, it is not a system that inspires much trust or confidence.

Oh, I'm sorry. Tell, you what, we moderators will just give up our lives and spend all our waking hours reading every single thread. Happy now?

Don't hold your breath. We have limited resources, so what catches our eye is what gets dealt with. Which usually means reported posts, which usually means the latest escapades of you and your ilk.

You seem to forget some important facts:

1. Moderators are unpaid volunteers.
2. To the extent that we work "for" anyone, we work for Chris, because we like and respect him.
3. So far as I can tell, none of us, even the ones who are less direct about it, like or respect you.
4. I don't work for you, and I wouldn't if you paid a fortune.

dtm42 wrote:
And you kind of need those to give your position a moral legitimacy, which happens to be the most powerful Moderation tool around (in my humble opinion anyway).

Can't argue with that -- it's nice to have moral legitimacy. Of course, it is kind of hard to argue from moral legitimacy with a monkey who's flinging monkey crap all over the place. But I guess if I just reason with Mr. Monkey, he'll see sense and everything will be all right.

- abunai
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robinsfire



Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:29 pm Reply with quote
i guess i cant have an opinion because im a noob and abunai doesnt approve. its funny how one can complain about others debating methods and dull out insults like candy on halloween night. note that abunai is a rare person because he's a troll and a mod all in one. even as i tryed to stop this senceless arguement and hope that abunai was big enough to appologize to skylark. it seems that he doesnt think he's inperfect in any way so he took the b!tch move and kept arguing with every one and the only real reason that abunai dismissed what i said and asked of him was because he knew i was right in asking him to appologize to skylark.

ps. can on one answer as to why should this section be open if we cant comment without mods badgering and insulting us?

pps. sorry i broke my promise Sad
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Tempest
I Run this place.
ANN Publisher


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 10468
Location: Do not message me for support.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:20 pm Reply with quote
robinsfire wrote:
i guess i can't have an opinion because im a noob and abunai doesnt approve.


I don't think Abunai has ever expressed any sort of disapproval of "noobs" but I do wonder why someone who has no prior experience with our forum moderating might get involved in a discussion about said moderation.

To be honest I was pretty unimpressed with your decision to stir this debate up again, almost a month after it had been last discussed. What was the point ? Were you just trying to start a fight ?

-t
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Tempest
I Run this place.
ANN Publisher


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 10468
Location: Do not message me for support.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:39 pm Reply with quote
I'm locking this. It was brought up for no reason at this point, and people are taking it way to seriously.

My answer to the issue was on the first page, everything since has been a waste of time, and possible trolling.

Although I think tempers flared a bit too much in this thread, I feel that our moderators, are generally extremely respectful of the users of these forums, even when said users are outright rude to the in turn. Yes, things do get out of hand on occasion, as they did here, but that is the exception, not the rule.

Given the extremely important service they provide for this forum, and the kind of crap they frequently have to put up with, I am willing to forgive the occasional indiscretion from the moderators when they react in a human manner to said crap.

Before calling this a "double standard" I'd like to again remind you to read my post on page 1. We frequently excuse similar indiscretions from users who otherwise have a history of polite activity on the forum.

Likewise, we will get rid of users who continually push the limits of what is acceptable, even if they never "cross the line" so to speak.

I'm finished, and so is this conversation.

-t
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