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britannicamoore wrote:

Being so paranoid is going to give you grey hair faster. Wink

Having a healthy scepticism is not paranoia luv. It's called seeing the world with the rose lensed glasses off, and it was working up to those greys that taught me that. Wink

naruto fan 09812 wrote:

You know what is really annoying about this debate. For people who repeatedly use the excuse that anime DVDs are too high to defend their use of fansubs. Come on people have you ever heard of Netflick,used DVDs shops and even ebay. If not that anime DVDs are too high is that people want to justified their use of only using fansubs.

Used dvds probably don't get any funds at all back to the creator. Right now, on GaragesaleJapan someone is selling used dvds for $5 a pop. They get the money back on the purchase and how is any money going back to the creator besides the money intially spent?

It isn't. Said person gets $5 of the money back and thats that. Thats great if anyone just wants to own the dvds.

Anime dvds are high compared to other dvds. Full collection of SatAM cost me $20 for all 26 episodes. If you tried to buy anime dvds it would cost $60 more- unless you wait until a thinpak/econmy release later.

And if everyone waited until a thinpak release....well. You get where i'm going.

la_contessa wrote:

(I wonder, in the event of an unlicensed property, whether a Japanese company could get standing based on the fact it may license to NA companies in the future? Very interesting legal question right there).

They would probably have standing just by being the original copyright holder. They don't need to actually license the show in an area to pursue copyright infringement cases there (which I personally think is a problem in current copyright law, but that's another discussion).

The question here is, if it is ODEX doing this, do THEY have the rights to go after people outside of Singapore or their licensing area?

Part of that will depend on exactly what authority the Japanese companies gave ODEX - and that's the part that remains unclear. If they gave them free reign to pursue all infringement that the original copyright holders could pursue internationally, then ODEX is probably within their rights to do this, though they certainly seem to be an odd choice to give that task too if you ask me (you'd think they'd task one of the US distributors to do that job in the US). If they weren't given that permission, then probably not so much.

DigimonTamer wrote:

Nobody devotes their life to their hobby quite like anime fans do.

This is pretty self-serving rhetoric, isn't it? I don't recall ever seeing Star Trek fans downloading and distributing entire seasons of the series before they air on television, and then getting angry about the price of the DVDs or having to watch commercials during the TV broadcast.

I'm not saying anime fans aren't dedicated to their hobby, but obviously the "financial support" component in anime fandom is broken.

Quote:

If you anger the fans in an industry as fan dependent as anime, you are in trouble.

A company that makes money selling anime is not "in trouble" if they anger a group of people who never pay for it.

The notion that anime fandom has become this impossible-to-please mob that actually gets angry when they're asked to stop doing something illegal is a very sad one.

Zac wrote:

DigimonTamer wrote:

Nobody devotes their life to their hobby quite like anime fans do.

This is pretty self-serving rhetoric, isn't it? I don't recall ever seeing Star Trek fans downloading and distributing entire seasons of the series before they air on television, and then getting angry about the price of the DVDs or having to watch commercials during the TV broadcast.

I'm not saying anime fans aren't dedicated to their hobby, but obviously the "financial support" component in anime fandom is broken.

Quote:

If you anger the fans in an industry as fan dependent as anime, you are in trouble.

A company that makes money selling anime is not "in trouble" if they anger a group of people who never pay for it.

The notion that anime fandom has become this impossible-to-please mob that actually gets angry when they're asked to stop doing something illegal is a very sad one.

Sure here in the US but what about in other counties? i'm sure there are trekies there that dl things as shown on us tv

there are ways to anger fans besides stopping fansubs, i think the recent one piece relicense shows that fans in the us can change the way things work via their comments.

rankothefiremage wrote:

Sure here in the US but what about in other counties? i'm sure there are trekies there that dl things as shown on us tv

So what if there are? What does that have to do with what I said?

britannicamoore wrote:

naruto fan 09812 wrote:

You know what is really annoying about this debate. For people who repeatedly use the excuse that anime DVDs are too high to defend their use of fansubs. Come on people have you ever heard of Netflick,used DVDs shops and even ebay. If not that anime DVDs are too high is that people want to justified their use of only using fansubs.

Used dvds probably don't get any funds at all back to the creator. Right now, on GaragesaleJapan someone is selling used dvds for $5 a pop. They get the money back on the purchase and how is any money going back to the creator besides the money intially spent?

It isn't. Said person gets $5 of the money back and thats that. Thats great if anyone just wants to own the dvds.

Well, the first counter argument is that....buying a used copy is legal, and if you have a choice between doing something legally or doing it illegally, you should do it legally. In that sense, it's irrelevant whether any additional money goes back to the distributor.

However, the second point here is this: If people who downloaded licensed anime series all suddenly decided to actually buy the DVDs, whether new or used, do you really think that anime companies won't sell more DVDs?

Basically your argument is saying that there is no difference practically or morally between basically stealing and buying something 2nd hand. I'd think most common sense-utilizing humans would see a problem with that train of thought, even if they couldn't easily but it into words or writing.

britannicamoore wrote:

Anime dvds are high compared to other dvds.

Oh boo hoo hoo!

britannicamoore wrote:

If you tried to buy anime dvds it would cost $60 more- unless you wait until a thinpak/econmy release later.

And if everyone waited until a thinpak release....well. You get where i'm going.

They should actually be more worried about people like me who actually buy series disc-by-disc if I watched them via fansubs first and liked them deciding to, instead, watch them first over netflix or whatever, then buying the boxset afterwards. That's probably a loss of 50% for each series for them, depending on the box set.

If it's a choice between not buying and buying the thinpack, obviously they'd prefer that you buy the thinpack. What they don't want is people going from buying series disc-by-disc to buying box sets.

calawain wrote:

Also, this is pretty funny, there is approximately a zero percent chance Odex could actually successfully pursue an international claim, at least here in the United States. It's merely a scare tactic to try and get people to buy their terrible quality releases. Just because your ISP sends you such a letter doesn't mean that Odex knows your name and address, it's insanely easy to sit there and pull IP addresses off of BitTorrent and send off letters to their ISPs. Color me surprised if Odex can convince a US judge to order Comcast or any other ISP to release the personal information that goes with these IP addresses.

Although I agree it probably won't happen, I must mention it could. However you didn't mention the most likely outcome. And that is the ISP denying service to these people whom have recieved letters. They don't have to go to court, and they have every legal right to do it, for whatever reason* they feel like. For people that only have one option of broadband service it will surely affect the most. And it's not unheard of to have companies pass around black lists between each other, so even if you have more than one option, you might still be using dial-up for years to come.

*The only reason they need, is that you are known to perform illegal activities, and that they don't wish to have to have that sort of activity on the servers they own. And no they don't have to prove it.

britannicamoore wrote:

Used dvds probably don't get any funds at all back to the creator. Right now, on GaragesaleJapan someone is selling used dvds for $5 a pop. They get the money back on the purchase and how is any money going back to the creator besides the money intially spent?

It isn't. Said person gets $5 of the money back and thats that. Thats great if anyone just wants to own the dvds.

Anybody else see whats wrong with this statement?

Quote:

Anime dvds are high compared to other dvds. Full collection of SatAM cost me $20 for all 26 episodes. If you tried to buy anime dvds it would cost $60 more- unless you wait until a thinpak/econmy release later.

And if everyone waited until a thinpak release....well. You get where i'm going.

An early grave? You seem to be implying that you will not live long enough to be able wait until there is a thinpack, and so what if there never was? There is always the singles, or regular box sets if available. Like it or not anime is a niche commodity and any niche commodity is expensive to buy, that's the nature of the beasty. If you can't afford it either get a job so you can, or ask your parent, or guardian, or try a cheaper hobby.

DigimonTamer wrote:

1. Anime DVDs are too expensive

Excuse me? Try buying DVDs in Japan before you start saying that Anime DVDs are too expensive. Just take a look at some of the online anime retailers that are out there, you can find good prices on DVDs. Also don't buy the limited edition and then maybe you will save some money.

Apparently some people are getting mad here, but if you're watching anime without paying for it, technically you are stealing from the industry. No matter how hard you try to justify not having any money or saying that the series isn't over here yet, that still doesn't mean you can defend downloading fansubs in the first place. People getting these notices means that somebody in the higher up is taking action, that's what it means. Doesn't mean I'm for or against it at this point, but maybe think about the fact that you're taking the chance of getting in trouble when you're downloading.

Mohawk52 wrote:

Quote:

Anime dvds are high compared to other dvds. Full collection of SatAM cost me $20 for all 26 episodes. If you tried to buy anime dvds it would cost $60 more- unless you wait until a thinpak/econmy release later.

And if everyone waited until a thinpak release....well. You get where i'm going.

An early grave? You seem to be implying that you will not live long enough to be able wait until there is a thinpack, and so what if there never was? There is always the singles, or regular box sets if available. Like it or not anime is a niche commodity and any niche commodity is expensive to buy, that's the nature of the beasty. If you can't afford it either get a job so you can, or ask your parent, or guardian, or try a cheaper hobby.

Well, the other way to read that would be "the companies will lose a crap load of money if everyone waits for the thinpack," but as I noted before, if people who don't buy any DVDs actually start buying thinpacks, then that'll be fine by the anime companies, so I'm not really sure how good of an argument that is.

So if thinpacks are the glorious road to high profits, why hasn't these distributors brought them out in the first place?

Zac wrote:

DigimonTamer wrote:

Nobody devotes their life to their hobby quite like anime fans do.

This is pretty self-serving rhetoric, isn't it? I don't recall ever seeing Star Trek fans downloading and distributing entire seasons of the series before they air on television, and then getting angry about the price of the DVDs or having to watch commercials during the TV broadcast.

I'm not saying anime fans aren't dedicated to their hobby, but obviously the "financial support" component in anime fandom is broken.

That's really not an apt comparison as first off there was no such thing as DVDs for most Star Trek shows before the most recent. Second, the air time in the US was the first showing. A more apt comparison would be to say Japanese Star Trek fans distributed fully subbed versions of Star Trek in Japan before it was released there. And there really is no reason to be angry about the prices of American TV show DVDs, the prices are significantly cheaper than anime DVD releases. You can't use fan comparisons for a niche community like anime to Star Trek, which has a fanbase hundreds of times larger. However, this is not to say that I think anime DVDs are priced too high, it's a niche market with unique circumstances, and that means it costs more. But that doesn't mean you can really compare it to a US TV show release in terms of money spent per minute of material.

Dargonxtc wrote:

calawain wrote:

Also, this is pretty funny, there is approximately a zero percent chance Odex could actually successfully pursue an international claim, at least here in the United States. It's merely a scare tactic to try and get people to buy their terrible quality releases. Just because your ISP sends you such a letter doesn't mean that Odex knows your name and address, it's insanely easy to sit there and pull IP addresses off of BitTorrent and send off letters to their ISPs. Color me surprised if Odex can convince a US judge to order Comcast or any other ISP to release the personal information that goes with these IP addresses.

Although I agree it probably won't happen, I must mention it could. However you didn't mention the most likely outcome. And that is the ISP denying service to these people whom have recieved letters. They don't have to go to court, and they have every legal right to do it, for whatever reason* they feel like. For people that only have one option of broadband service it will surely affect the most. And it's not unheard of to have companies pass around black lists between each other, so even if you have more than one option, you might still be using dial-up for years to come.

*The only reason they need, is that you are known to perform illegal activities, and that they don't wish to have to have that sort of activity on the servers they own. And no they don't have to prove it.

Receiving DMCA take down notices does not equal "performing illegal activities," the requirements for a DMCA notice are weak. You are not judged as doing something illegal until it goes to court. And I really don't think people are going to be summarily disconnected for receiving a couple of such notices. Although with Comcast who knows, they have engaged in highly shady activities as of late with packet shaping and packet forging. That's why they are being investigated by the FCC and are targeted by several consumer law suits atm~

Last edited by Calculusman on Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

calawain wrote:

The only reason they need, is that you are known to perform illegal activities, and that they don't wish to have to have that sort of activity on the servers they own. And no they don't have to prove it.

Receiving DMCA take down notices does not equal "performing illegal activities," the requirements for a DMCA notice are weak. You are not judged as doing something illegal until it goes to court. And I really don't think people are going to be summarily disconnected for receiving a couple of such notices. Although with Comcast who knows, they have engaged in highly shady activities as of late with packet shaping and packet forging. That's why they are being investigated by the FCC and are targeted by several consumer law suits atm~

Meh, yeah, but if they cut off your service, then you're the one who has to do the suing to show that you aren't doing something illegal. Comcast doesn't need to go to court to cut you off.

Mohawk52 wrote:

So if thinpacks are the glorious road to high profits, why hasn't these distributors brought them out in the first place?

Well, for those who buy series disc-by-disc, they aren't. However, anime distributors would much rather have people buying thinpacks than not buying the series at all.

Mohawk52 wrote:

britannicamoore wrote:

Used dvds probably don't get any funds at all back to the creator. Right now, on GaragesaleJapan someone is selling used dvds for $5 a pop. They get the money back on the purchase and how is any money going back to the creator besides the money intially spent?

It isn't. Said person gets $5 of the money back and thats that. Thats great if anyone just wants to own the dvds.

Anybody else see whats wrong with this statement?

Quote:

Anime dvds are high compared to other dvds. Full collection of SatAM cost me $20 for all 26 episodes. If you tried to buy anime dvds it would cost $60 more- unless you wait until a thinpak/econmy release later.

And if everyone waited until a thinpak release....well. You get where i'm going.

An early grave? You seem to be implying that you will not live long enough to be able wait until there is a thinpack, and so what if there never was? There is always the singles, or regular box sets if available. Like it or not anime is a niche commodity and any niche commodity is expensive to buy, that's the nature of the beasty. If you can't afford it either get a job so you can, or ask your parent, or guardian, or try a cheaper hobby.

Nope- i'm saying that if everyone waited for the cheaper thinpak release what would be the point of selling the dvds single? If they cut out the single sales how much money would they loose?

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

And no, the dvds aren't bootlegs. Anyone who tries to sell bootlegs on there get kicked out the community. If you'd like a link I could give you one so you could see for yourself.

Calculusman, sarcastic comments do nothing for this conversation.
Anime dvds are more expensive other dvds. Regardless of where you shop.
*fixed

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