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all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

DavetheUsher wrote:

My stance has always been I wanna know what the characters are actually saying. If a Japanese character suddenly starts speaking American slang than that's really out of place and takes me out of the show. It's no different than other Americanization IMO. I don't expect Japanese teens to talk like American teens. I know they have their own subset of idioms, phrases, and slang. If it's really that important, put a little note on screen or something like plenty of other shows already do.

I see this attitude from time to time and it honestly baffles me. Are you really going to understand what it means if one character calls another a mackerel girl? Or if someone tells the main character to go scribble something on the back of a flyer? What do you gain from seeing a note explaining it, versus the translator finding an English equivalent?

....people like to learn about other cultures, including language and customs...what is "baffling" about this, exactly?

It's a good thing. Maybe you don't care...but some fans certainly do, myself included.

What do we gain? Knowledge! Gasp!

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an English equivalent?

No such thing. Japanese is Japanese and English is English. What's the translation for "-chan"? Um, nothing. Most official companies totally ignore it...which irks me.

Learning random facts about another culture is all well and good, but not when it has the side effect of yanking you out of the narrative. Nothing kills the flow of a scene more than having to pause the video to read a footnote about a bit of cultural minutia that you'd have no way of knowing otherwise. If there's some small throwaway reference that would be common knowledge for your average Japanese viewer, why not replace it with one that would be equally familiar to the target audience? The FLCL dub did as much some two decades ago when it used Crystal Pepsi to refer to some equally-defunct Japanese soft drink, and it was a great adaptation choice because it immediately got the meaning across. Or on a related note, how about puns based on kanji readings that have no straight translation whatsoever? Those pretty much require some sort of creativity when translating a work. To borrow another FLCL example, one of Haruko's nonsensical rhyming schemes became something like "Vacation, alienation, Japanimation, manga, conga, Naked Lunch, Hawaiian Punch!" I'll take that sort of fun adaptation any day of the week, because a joke that requires a side explanation in order to be understood is no longer remotely funny.

Chiibi wrote:

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

DavetheUsher wrote:

My stance has always been I wanna know what the characters are actually saying. If a Japanese character suddenly starts speaking American slang than that's really out of place and takes me out of the show. It's no different than other Americanization IMO. I don't expect Japanese teens to talk like American teens. I know they have their own subset of idioms, phrases, and slang. If it's really that important, put a little note on screen or something like plenty of other shows already do.

I see this attitude from time to time and it honestly baffles me. Are you really going to understand what it means if one character calls another a mackerel girl? Or if someone tells the main character to go scribble something on the back of a flyer? What do you gain from seeing a note explaining it, versus the translator finding an English equivalent?

....people like to learn about other cultures, including language and customs...what is "baffling" about this, exactly?

It's a good thing. Maybe you don't care...but some fans certainly do, myself included.

What do we gain? Knowledge! Gasp!

Quote:

an English equivalent?

No such thing. Japanese is Japanese and English is English. What's the translation for "-chan"? Um, nothing. Most official companies totally ignore it...which irks me.

My degree is in Japanese and linguistics with a focus on sociolinguistics so don't step at me when it comes to learning about other languages and cultures. If you're trying to learn Japanese, watch in Japanese and take a course or something. Subtitles are not a language class and shouldn't be treated as such.

"－ちゃん" is not slang and thus is not relevant to this conversation. Translating cultural terms is an entire other conversation.

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

Quote:

I see this attitude from time to time and it honestly baffles me. Are you really going to understand what it means if one character calls another a mackerel girl? Or if someone tells the main character to go scribble something on the back of a flyer? What do you gain from seeing a note explaining it, versus the translator finding an English equivalent?

I originally got into anime and manga because it was a different culture and a different feeling from what I was used to. To me translations that scrape all the culture and all the differences from either anime or manga kinda miss the point. If all I wanted was mindless entertainment there was and still is plenty of it on broadcast and cable Tv.

I'm perfectly willing to interrupt a show for an explanation. When DVDs first came out, I found myself switching from Dub to Sub and back again to try and listen to hear what some insult was (usually just baka or aho) and to find why the Japanese seemed to be shorter or longer than the English (it is amazing the range of multi word translations that are just hai in Japanese). I finally gave up on dubs altogether. Fortunately, I'm much more into manga than anime so explanation is easier.

For me, I generally don’t like it, but I take it as more of a case by case basis. I also echo the sentiment that the use of American slang takes me out of the show. I always think why are these clearly Japanese (most of the time) characters using stupid American slang?! I think it’s a me problem too to be honest. I don’t enjoy popular culture or references very much, so memes and slang just make me roll my eyes usually. I would say I feel like it’s me getting old, but I’ve always been like this.

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

I see this attitude from time to time and it honestly baffles me. Are you really going to understand what it means if one character calls another a mackerel girl? Or if someone tells the main character to go scribble something on the back of a flyer? What do you gain from seeing a note explaining it, versus the translator finding an English equivalent?

Well, aside from the education thing people mentioned, it seems like a lot of the time you'll miss something out with those kinds of changes. For example, the amount of times I've seen characters reference hana yori dango/dango over flowers and it literally involves them eating dango or something with flowers is pretty common. And usually those scenes wouldn't really make sense with any kind English idiom that removes the flowers or the dango from the dialog. Like a character going "dango, huh? I'll stick with booze". Maybe some scenarios could be written into a decent English version without too much being lost, but I'd say it's better overall when things become more recognizable with viewers like how Japanese honorifics and lots of terminology have become such common knowledge in the fandom.

But like I said, I won't get too bent out of shape for the really basic or minor translation choices. It's the more egregious ones I take issue with and the ones I think other people complain about the most.

Did a bit of clean up. I suggest some of you watch the snark and passive aggressive attitudes. Especially since some of you have been warned about it in other discussions recently.

It generally doesn't bother me. A lot of slang has been around for a long time and will continue to be around and, typically, the characters in these shows that are using the slang are high schoolers or nerds, the type of people who would use slang. Most of the time the slang we get in subs or dubs is a fairly accurate choice to what they're saying in the original, too.

*takes in a deep breath*

*exhales*

Okay. I'm going to write a big long carepost that will hopefully cover my bases and if you're not convinced, I'll accept that there's nothing I can say that will. Also I need to write my Idaten Deities review so Lynzee won't yell at me spoiler[j/k she won't, she's pretty chill as far as editors go]

Why should I care what you have to say?

-BA in Japanese and linguistics
-20+ years of anime fandom
-2 years living in Japan
-10+ years working in pedagogy, including language teaching
-5+ years doing freelance criticism that often involves research
-not technically formal training but an active interest in the art of translation and listening to experts when they speak

Anime subtitles are not a language class

I used to think this way! But then I actually studied Japanese! It's one of those things where the more you learn, the more you realize just how much you don't know.

The fact is, outside of a very small number of people who pick up languages unusually easily, you're not going to learn any sort of useful Japanese from watching subtitled anime that you couldn't pick up far more effectively from a class, or a textbook, or even a free course online. The languages are simply too different to be approached this way. You'll learn some basic phrases and vocabulary, maybe even a grammar point or two, but not enough to carry on a meaningful conversation just from watching anime.

You're watching anime alongside more formal methods of study? Awesome! Anime can totally be a useful way to get listening practice and learn new vocabulary. But the most effective way to do that is to turn the subtitles off and turn your ears on, write down unfamiliar vocab, and then look it up.

Literally translating slang makes a sentence incoherent. You have to actively decode what they could possibly mean, and often it'll be impossible because of some specific cultural knowledge. Consider the aforementioned "mackerel girl," which is used to describe a girl decked out in sparkly accessories. This makes sense if you're in a seafood-heavy culture, because you'll be familiar with how sparkly mackerel scales are. But what if you can't picture a mackerel in your head? The sentence will be meaningless. Sure, maybe you can divine that the Japanese word for "mackerel" is "saba," but then you also have to stop and actively try to suss outwhat exactly that means and possibly guess wrong, or have a translator's note taking up the screen to explain something that not every viewer is going to be interested in.

I know it's hard to believe, but not every anime viewer wants to learn Japanese or is even interested in Japanese culture beyond watching cool cartoons about ninjas or whatever. Leaving easily-translatable terms in Japanese creates a barrier to entry.

Besides, literally-translated Japanese sounds terrible. Go watch Netflix's subs on Fate/Extra to see what I mean.

Besides, if you're a Japanese language learner, you're probably not going to be using slang because...

Slang is not equivalent to idioms is not equivalent to various other kinds of culturally-specific language, and you probably won't have occasion to use it

This thread is about slang, and yet I see people talking about whether to translate oni or -chan or hana yori dango. These are tricky and depends heavily on context. Oni are folkloric figures that have parallels in other cultures. -Chan is an honorific that doesn't have a direct English equivalent. Hana yori dango is a proverb, with a set meaning that has existed for a long time. How to translate each other them is highly context-sensitive and varies depending on the audience and the preferences of the translator.

(Oh hey look, I wrote a bit about translating "oni" to "demon" in Demon Slayer. Seriously, I know what I'm talking about with this.)

Slang is a distinct linguistic category characterized by informality, usage by a particular group rather than the general population, and is ephemeral in nature. It evolves and drops in and out of use relatively quickly, especially compared to more fixed language (which is still changing and evolving all the time). If you learn slang from anime and try using it in conversation, this is how you'll sound:

But using slang makes them sound like American teens instead of Japanese teens! And it'll seem outdated really fast!

According to the rule of equivalence (an actual thing in translation studies, which is a real field), them sounding like American teens gives you an equivalent experience that the Japanese viewer would have. That's good! That's the goal of translation. While there are some cultural differences, when it comes to slang, teens are teens. They use slang. Leaving slang out entirely when they used it in the original makes them sound less like teenagers and thus is a less accurate translation and losing an aspect of the character.

Worried about it sounding outdated in a few years? Don't worry, that's equivalent too.

But can slang ever really be equivalent? Best just to leave it untranslated.

If that's the attitude you're going to take, why bother translating anything at all? No matter what, meaning is going to shift and change when translating from one language to the other, and it will always be filtered through both the skill and the unique lens of the translator. That's just the nature of the practice. If you want the purest, most unaltered version, you really have no choice but to learn Japanese. Sorry spoiler[not sorry].

^
Yep, you said it way better than I could. Despite how much people think they want the 100% authentic Japanese "all according to keikaku" experience, they aren't going to get that without just flat out learning Japanese. I've actually been in the process of self-teaching myself Japanese with textbooks and everything, something I started doing during the COVID shut down, and the more I've learned the more I've realized just how much subtitles are far from the "100% authentic experience".

Basically, Nagatoro saying "sus" in the subs is not giving you any less of a authentic experience than you would if the subs didn't say sus. In fact, it's probably giving you a more authentic experience.

Chiibi wrote:

*shrugs*

Doesn't bother me at all. It's way more distracting when they don't explain it so I have to Google it myself. >_> I find myself trying to look up bits of dialogue when I hear something I don't recognize.

I mean I guess it's mostly about why you're a fan of the medium in the first place. I didn't get into anime because I wanted to explore a different culture, I got into it because I love animation in general and discovered this whole new world of it that I'd never encountered before. The fact that anime is Japanese holds no real inherent fascination for me beyond the fact that Japan has fostered a very rich and prolific animation tradition. I've picked up my share of cultural elements over the years, and I'll occasionally look something up if I'm legitimately confused by it, but I'm not all that interested beyond that.

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

Quote:

Why should I care what you have to say?

-BA in Japanese and linguistics
-20+ years of anime fandom
-2 years living in Japan
-10+ years working in pedagogy, including language teaching
-5+ years doing freelance criticism that often involves research
-not technically formal training but an active interest in the art of translation and listening to experts when they speak

Obviously this is your life and your passion. Unfortunately most of us don't have the option to get this deep into Japanese culture. That doesn't mean we can't be interested in it. You should be helping those of us less fortunate and not insisting on removing everything Japanese from anime. Perhaps you could approach Lynzee on the possibility of a regular column on difference is Japanese culture shown in current anime and translation choices.

Quote:

Anime subtitles are not a language class

Agreed, though I do think that watching a lot of anime can be an education in cultural differences. The issue for me is not if slang should be translated but how. As I said before, using (or attempting to use) current teenage slang is iffy. Most professional translators are not teenagers. Even someone in their twenties is closer to the guy in your graphic than not. I'm not suggesting the use of formal language but you should stay away from the hottest in words. You are not going to replicate the experience in any case.

Quote:

I know it's hard to believe, but not every anime viewer wants to learn Japanese or is even interested in Japanese culture beyond watching cool cartoons about ninjas or whatever. Leaving easily-translatable terms in Japanese creates a barrier to entry.

Not all anime is appropriate for entry level viewing. Shows that do serve as entry into anime certainly should be more heavily localized. However we are currently getting most of each season's anime. A lot of it is a barrier to entry based on the content regardless of translation. I think the translation should consider the likely audience. "What the hell did I just watch" is a not uncommon reaction to attempting to show anime to newcomers.

Tomokocchi wrote:

Quote:

Basically, Nagatoro saying "sus" in the subs is not giving you any less of a authentic experience than you would if the subs didn't say sus. In fact, it's probably giving you a more authentic experience.

It doesn't always work. I have no idea what "sus" is supposed to mean, though I could probably get the meaning from context in a show. Trying to be too trendy can be as bad as a literal translation. Keep in mind that a substantial portion of the US anime fandom runs somewhat older than the intended Japanese audience.

Alan45 wrote:

The issue for me is not if slang should be translated but how. As I said before, using (or attempting to use) current teenage slang is iffy. Most professional translators are not teenagers. Even someone in their twenties is closer to the guy in your graphic than not. I'm not suggesting the use of formal language but you should stay away from the hottest in words. You are not going to replicate the experience in any case.

I understand this point but I'd wager most professional writers in anime/manga also aren't teenagers, and so we get two layers of "How do you do, fellow kids" in here. If anything that makes it more appropriate to translate them into awkward slang Laughing

Alan45 wrote:

That doesn't mean we can't be interested in it. You should be helping those of us less fortunate and not insisting on removing everything Japanese from anime.

I... what?

It's a huuuuuge leap from "anime is not a language class, so translators should strive for smooth, natural-sounding English without leaving easily translated terms or relying on overly-literal translation" to "anime should be scrubbed of everything Japanese." Kind of makes me suspect that you didn't take the time to understand what I was saying and are arguing in bad faith.

Last edited by Cam0 on Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:55 am; edited 2 times in total

I haven't watched Nagatoro, but honestly this thread was the first time I've ever encountered the term "sus" (I think). I'm not American and I don't really follow twitch culture, but I still consider myself well above average as far as my English language skills go when compared to other non-native English speakers. Maybe I might have been able to figure out that sus means suspicious just from the context of the scene it was used in, perhaps I might have had to take a trip to urbandictionary. But I honestly I wouldn't have really cared all that much either way. Maybe I lean more towards translators not taking too many liberties while translating anime, but if they do it's like "eh" and a shrug. As long as the translation gets the meaning across it's fine.

That being said in a way I have some appreciation for like the early to mid 2000s era fansubs that tended to have a lot of translator notes because those taught me a lot of things. Otherwise I would never have figured out that crow flying over in Naruto was saying "idiot". It's useful knowledge, right? I remember Tsuyokiss, a really lame anime from mid 2000s had an ongoing joke about how the tsundere lead wasn't being honest with her feelings. Since her name was Sunao, the characters were making jokes about how she was basically "not being herself". To understand the joke you pretty much had to know what a tsundere is and that Sunao means honest. It's... mildly funny but how do you translate that joke to someone who doesn't know those things without using translator notes? I dunno.

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