Forum - View topicDouble standards
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10468 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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For the record, not that it matter in the least, Abunai did not ask to be a moderator first. We asked him to be a moderator. As has been already explained, he denied at first and latter accepted. Now then, this is completely off topic. Due to it's nature, I'm not going to lock this thread, as people would consider it censorship, however I also believe that my previous post has adequately addressed the issue of "double standards." So if you have something to say, please read my last post and make sure your question wasn't already addressed by it. I don't expect to see any further personal attacks against moderators or users. The next person that makes this personal and attempts to belittle a someone else in any way will be banned for a month or more. Remember, be nice. -t |
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robinsfire
Posts: 5 |
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Abunai should be asked to apologize after this for his insane attack on skylark. One so petty shouldn't hold that much sway over others. He kept attacking even after the issue was resolved between the one complaining and the complainee. And tempest saying
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yeah, I didn't want to drag us off topic so I didn't mention it before but I entirely agree. Abunai's comments were out of line. Several of the things he said right off the bat are really nothing more than insults and it gets even worse as the conversation goes on. Admittedly Skylark could have been quite a bit more polite in his initial complaints and once the two get into it, he is equally rude. Skylark's conduct is really irrelevant though. It's never appropriate for a member of the ANN staff to get into a flame war with a poster.
I fully understand that it's irritating to have people complain about the mods but if a poster does so without breaking teh rules then he deserves to be responded to in kind. (All the other mods who responded to Skylark managed this just fine). And if he does get overly personal or insulting then the moderator should use his authority to remove the inappropriate comments and warn the user that his criticisms must still fall within the rules. |
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robinsfire
Posts: 5 |
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yeah I mean cloe handled it very nice. and after tony k and skylark calmed down they saw each others point of view and handled it nicely at the end. but if we are going to be greeted with abunai's behavior why should we ever use the ann feedback secton ever again?
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Once again:
There appears to be an attitude among certain users that moderators are fair game. You can say anything to them that you can get away with, and they are not allowed to respond. If moderators do use their powers, it is construed as an automatic abuse, unless the original offense was completely egregious. It is then agreed that "well, the original poster wasn't that nasty, and the moderator is just a power-mad tyrant". It's apparently quite all right to accuse moderators of double standards, power abuses and being unkind to puppies, but if they should happen to dare to respond, they are abusing their status as moderators -- because, you know, if you engage them in debate they are sure to ban you. Never mind that they didn't ban you in the first place, and actually responded to you. If you try to debate them, they'll ban you for sure. Because that's the kind of nasty, power-mad beasts they all are. (Of course, the real reason could very well be that most users here couldn't debate their way out of a paper bag, and would rather resort to snide insinuations and name-calling, than actually trying to make their point.) All this started when Tony bent over backwards to be nice and allow a post that would otherwise have resulted in a locked thread. Apparently, being lenient isn't allowed. Guess we've learnt our lesson, eh? Notice how often the word "power" crops up in people's complaints against moderators. Yet how often do we actually use these supposed powers against these people who are so concerned with our "abuses"? The answer is never. But if you talk crap to me, or one of my fellow moderators, I won't let you walk away unscathed. I'll make you feel the sharp edge of my tongue, and it will serve you bloody right. - abunai |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16970 |
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So you post this after almost a month when the topic is dead and over with. Why? What is the point? You just slam abunai for the same damn thing you just did. You claim the issue was dealt with and he had no reason for his "attack" as you say. Well this topic has been dead for almost a month and yet here YOU are going after him. So how exactly is this any different hmmmm? Sure looks like you're applying the double standard yourself right now getting on abunai for something you show in your very own attack. But of course since he's the mod it's an abuse of power and he should apologize. How nice.
But it's ok to drag a dead topic OT now huh? You two should take this act on the road. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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You will note that neither me nor robinsfire said anything to this effect. (If you disagree, then please do quote the specific comments so we can clear up this misunderstanding). Perhaps you're just speaking generally here. However, this generalization does not apply to us, so it would be better if you could address our comments instead.
This is not ANN's policy as I understand it. Unless I'm mistaken, no poster may be rude, abusive or personally insulting no matter the circumstances and regardless of your eloquent manner of speaking, I feel you did cross this line several times. It is irrelevant if the user you are responding to is also being insulting or crossing the line. The fact that they deserve it or it serves them right is not an excuse. I'm sure you wouldn't accept it as such from a normal user so mods should be no different. P.S. If it's not this but whether you crossed the line that is the main point of contention, please clarify and we can get more specific.
If questioning whether someone is being rude, abusive or personally attacking is not acceptable and in fact, equivalent to this behavior itself, then anyone who ever reported a post should be banned.
Yes I'd say so. I didn't want to interfere with the initial discussion of what Tony did. That discussion has long since ended though so I no longer see a problem. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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The exact wording of the rule is:
While there is a fine line between "rude" and "abusive" or "hateful", users aren't explicitly required to be nice to one another. It's preferable, of course, but a severe tongue lashing such as those abunai is like to give isn't beyond the pale. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I disagree:
I would think that applies to Moderators as well as ordinary users. Now, I'll admit that I often enjoy watching certain Moderators berate idiot users who make inane threads before reading the rules. But technically those spiteful or scathing remarks aren't polite at all (certainly not to the user to whom they are directed at). But more to the point, if an ordinary user is rude to any other user - including a Moderator - then it should be a simple case of applying the rules, going through the systems put in place to punish that behaviour. I know Moderators are human, but then so are the police and the judiciary, and we expect them to act in a professional and dispassionate manner at all times. Sure, Moderators don't get paid, but they are still trying to do a similar job; keep a designated place (the forums) as "clean" as possible. So it is my hope that Moderators strive to avoid sinking down to the same level of those who abuse them. I would be outraged if I saw my police responding - say - to a verbally abusive vandal by yelling and swearing at them. You've got to be the bigger man (or woman as the case may be). This may appear to be a double-standard that discriminates against Moderators, but that's not true. If any user is nasty or rude to another, we do not expect the second user to respond in kind and make it worse. Why should it be different for Moderators? Last edited by dtm42 on Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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egoist
 Posts: 7762 |
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Wow, such a complex thread.
The locked thread that started this had been given a chance and then was locked up later. Well, if people can't understand the rules before posting, it'll results in locked threads obviously. I'm not one to talk though. I've noticed that huge threads have a much smaller chance of being locked by offtopic conversations rather than a recently opened thread. Not that it makes much difference, because I'm visiting ANN since 2006 but just recently started spamming the forums (you guys are probably unlucky to have me here! but bear with it!). And just recently another thread was locked which was Yuri question. and with the leadership of Elf474 we turned it into a recommendation thread. It was quite interesting despite having the posts going totally offtopic from the thread opening. Now, to the essence of this topic. Maybe my opinion doesn't matter much since I haven't been here long enough to completely understand how the forums work (Key can prove that!), but so far I didn't notice any actions the Mods had to take to be annoying/unfair. If it's alright I'll use this thread to show my appreciation for a few mods: Key specially, for being really understanding and setting the tournaments(and everyone who helps him ofc). Abunai for being a direct person and never turning his eyes from retarded remarks and also for his big words and small and complicated words (that was stolen from somewhere, but it's a joke Abunai). Cloe for her seriousness and the fact she always locks the threads I like(nah kidding). Tony K and Kenyon for their cool avatar. Dormcat for his hard work and also the link he posted in some thread (a video with his friends? revering a figure of Saber? on youtube). And finally Tempest for creating teh imba rules and teh ANN. That's all. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Well he's not a Moderator, but I'm sure he is flattered for you thinking so highly of him. He once said he works twenty hours a week updating the Encyclopedia - on top of keeping a normal job - so yeah, hard work indeed. |
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Skylark
 Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
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With regard to the opening debacle in this thread; I will take responsibility for this. While I still don't think abunai was particularly cool-headed in his response, looking at it now my initial post was much more abrasive than I'd really wanted it to be. It somewhat got out of hand but I'll recognise that I instigated it; if only because I was just as defensive to abunai's posts as he was to mine (and I really did call out all mods in generalisation with regard to an issue which I didn't feel so strongly about as to end up on bad terms with _any_ moderator). So in that respect, I apologise, abunai. You didn't react any differently than I probably would have if my judgment and character, if even notionally, was called into question. By expecting you to not act defensively while I did exactly that, I myself was guilty of expecting a double standard. I'm sorry. It all got out of hand, and I think we were both somewhat guilty of overreacting; however I shouldn't hold you to a standard that I, as a member of this community, can't uphold myself.
I think what tempest was saying with this:
had more to do with my initial post than the fallout that happened afterward, because my initial post, though intended as constructive criticism and an identification of a somewhat complex issue with regards to moderation, came across as not very unbiased and unemotional. I too will take more care to be polite if I come to discuss any similar delicate issue. Although I think that your response still was rude, abunai, I did help it escalate and I did somewhat instigate it; you can hardly be blamed for defending your position and your decisions based on the accusation of a member. The issue has been resolved and I'd like for the discussion to move away from that particular debacle, as really it is mostly my fault. I have been here for more than 2.5 years as a regular reader and occasional contributor, and I should know better myself. Hopefully, abunai, there won't continue to be bad feeling between us, as generally I do appreciate the work you guys put in; I really didn't want to offend anyone by posting this thread. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Actually, I sort of disagree. I've always observed to 'Be Polite' clause to be applied only as a general suggestion and not as an explicit rule. While users certainly should be encouraged to be polite, it's a fair bit too subjective to really apply as an absolute rule. If nothing else but as an observable fact, somewhat of a lack of politeness is allowed on ANN. For this reason, I wasn't complaining about a mere lack of politeness in Abunai's comments. (In retrospect 'rude' was probably a poor choice of words). It was fairly reasonable not to be polite in this situation. However, I think that some of the things he said go beyond that. I'm sure we'll all agree that one is clearly not allowed to post comments that are abusive and personally insulting or attacking. In terms of that kind of thing though, yes, I entirely agree with the rest of your post. Anyway, I'm sorry to drag this on seeing as Skylark seems eager to bury the hatchet here. Abunai is only human and if he simply made a mistake once and lost his temper a bit then I'm not going to hold it against him and would be happy to drop this. However, I still would like to see the issue of whether 'he had it coming' is a justification for breaking the rules addressed. In my view this is contradictory to the rules and if this is the stance Abunai operates under as a moderator I find it rather concerning. |
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robinsfire
Posts: 5 |
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i never meant to attack anyone and i didn't say any thing about abuse of power. the only thing i was trying to say is that they both acted crazy and cloe was the only one to behave them selves. and that they should apologize to each other. and i would expect children to act like this but not any adults. and my question was why should any of us use this section if we have to have a forum brawl when we comment?
ps: this is my last post on this i promise. |
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Before anyone is too quick to make excuses on my behalf, and to call it "a regrettable loss of temper", let me point out that I do not in any way agree that I acted unreasonably, nor was my temper at any time out of control. An unfair attack was made upon a colleague, and I defended him. When the response to that was rudeness, I responded with a completely justified tongue-lashing. The resulting Greek chorus of whines and moans from the ranks of the habitual complainers is predictable, and I am monumentally indifferent to it.
Don't try to pretend that you are doing me a favour, ikillchicken, by claiming that I acted without knowing completely what I was doing. That's just a back-handed way of disrespecting me, and it's not going to fly -- I never say or do anything of which I am ashamed, and should I unwittingly give offense, I gladly apologise. No apology is needed here, though, as I have already said. You don't care for me, ikillchicken, and that's your privilege (and I assure you, the feeling is completely mutual), so don't pretend to act as if you have my best interests at heart -- it is a transparent lie. And don't presume to speak for me, it is not among your rights. As for robinsfire, I find it interesting that someone who has posted here a grand total of 4 times, 2 of them in this thread, feels the right to comment so freely on my behaviour. If you had made a prolonged effort in this forum, I might pay more attention to you, but as it is, you remind me of one of those kibitzers who walk up to a card game in progress and proceed to offer their opinion on the players, whether welcome or not. As for the issue of politeness, I doubt anyone can point to anything that I wrote which (unless quoted out of context) is rude. There's a difference between "rude" and "not nice". You can be perfectly harsh without ever being impolite. I will readily agree that I didn't write "nice" things. But then, I'm not here to be "nice". I'm not here to whisper sweet nothings in your ears and hold your little hands and wipe drool off your little chins. You're long out of diapers, I would hope, and well past the stage where you should have to be coddled. I'm here to tell you when you screw up, and to clean up the mess. If you think it's tough on you, it's just too bad. Don't screw up, then. - abunai |
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