Forum - View topicLoli discussion
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Hey, power to ya' psycho101 and daemonblue.
I feel like I've given my logic about semantics and the roots of words, and what not, and why I think think even an educated person might presume that loli= hentai because of its relationship to the word lolita... I feel like I've made that as clear as I can make it. If you think that someone mistaking "loli" for "lolita" or "loli" for "loli hentai" (and all the personal repercussions that sort of mistake might lead to) is the same as mistaking "apples" for "peaches", that's cool. That just doesn't seem correct to me. You guys obviously think otherwise, which is fine. I mean, it has no personal effect on me, you know?
Well, that's easy psych 101-- because you don't want to get mislabeled as a pedophile simply over a matter of semantics re: a hobby of yours. To me-- I figure, hey, this isn't a matter of religion, or race, or ethics, we're just talking about anime here. I'm sure others might prefer to extrapolate how compromising on one thing because of the ignorance of certain people can lead to all sorts of other, more horrific, compromises, but I think one should just choose one's battles. Anime is a lot of fun, but it's just not that important to me. Perhaps it's more important to others, which is cool. Hey-- I, truly, sincerely hope you don't get mislabeled in a negative way or "persecuted" by others who misunderstand from the get-go the word you're using, OR that you really believe it's important enough to you to use that word, despite whatever repercussions it might have. Hope it all works out well for you. Honest. Heck, who knows, perhaps I've got it all wrong, and loli fans really aren't being generally misunderstood and mislabeled in particularly damaging ways. As before, maybe I misunderstood that fact. :¯\_(ツ)_/¯: I guess there's not much else for me to say. Either I'm right or I'm wrong.. Even I don't know. I'm only trying to present a helpful opinion. 
Anyways, I know it must sound odd coming up in a thread that started out being about loli porn, atleast according to omar235, but .... I hope you guys have a nice xmas/hanukkah/agnostic or aethist winter break/ etc etc. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16963 |
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I can understand your point of view, and I'm not attacking you personally, but I simply think it's stupid for people to have to change the term of something they like because a handful of people want to label it something else. Of course I don't want to get some sort of label, especially not one as a pedo, but why should I change the terminology behind my hobby? Are we now as a society in a place where we have to make every freakin little thing politically correct so we don't offend someone? Loli was not meant to be associated with sexually connotations but yet people want to do so. Since they're the ones twisting the meaning around why should we have to change the term to something else? Plus, if these kinds of ignorant people are dead set on bashing this topic they'll condemn it no matter what we call it. I simply think people should stop being ignorant fools and take 5 seconds to be educated on a topic before they run their mouths. Yes, I know in today's society that's like wishing for gold to fall from the sky but oh well. Last edited by Redbeard 101 on Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Those Goth-loli examples might not be explicit as in hentai, but how you can say they're not sexual in implication is beyond me.
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Deleted post. That's all.
Last edited by Steve Berry on Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:17 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Calling people "ignorant fools" just because they don't think like you do is foolish in itself, and only highlights that you are immature and just as "closed minded" in your accusation. The problem with being ignorant is that one just doesn't know it. If you want to call what is defined as moe "loli" please yourself, but just don't start throwing your toys out when those who have not been convinced of what you mean, by the examples supplied, don't agree with you. "Loli" is a volatile word outside of your little world. Anything volatile will ignite when sparked, and that's the top and tail of it.
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Daemonblue
 Posts: 701 |
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I'm not calling them ignorant fools because they don't think like me, but rather because they are foolish in thinking that they can properly discuss the meaning of a word whilst being ignorant of its original connotation. As for you saying
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chicogrande
 Posts: 190 Location: Huntsville, Alabama |
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In a nation of labels is easy to be trapped by one that would automatically doom you. Most people are already wired to respond a certain way when they hear the words pedophile or child porn ring. We have got to be careful of the terms we use as fans to describe certain anime. There is not a title in the US that should cause concern. We should guard against over-using a term, like loli, and creating a false impression of it.
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omar235
 Posts: 1572 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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Well I have been at my sisters house so I am a little behind with all these new threads started and what not, but moe doesn't cover everything that could be defined as "loli" sometimes loli is just a better usage, for me at least. If I do use loli to describe something and someone thinks I mean it in a pedo way then I will just tell them that I meant it the same way as saying moe. There isn't really a need to have a fight any more I mean I can see why psycho101 would not want to change the words he uses just to please people and I can see how people could be intially confused by the word usage but as long as they listen to how someone describes the meaning in there own words there shouldn't be a big fight. 
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16963 |
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Ok, now who's the one thinking of it in that way, Omar or you Mohawk? Sounds like to me you have some issues if all you do is associate anything remotely similar to loli with sexual connotations. Maybe you're the one with the problem and not the other people here. Just so you know those are the dolls. They're life like dolls who happen to come to life and battle each other basically. Nothing sexual in that series at all. If you can look at it and comment on nothing but the "mini skirts" and they're "french maid outfits" maybe you're the one with the issues because no one else even thought of that or mentioned them. Seems to me like you go out of your way to notice these things and point them out to everyone. Why don't you try actually listening to people instead of simply bashing everything everyone has to say. This thread is turning into nothing but flaming. Mods should step in and say something. I'm not gonna bother to argue anymore with people who refuse to even listen and act with any sort of civility. Have fun guys. Last edited by Redbeard 101 on Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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selenta
 Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Oh my god, you are sooo right! I just can not help but fap constantly whenever I see those 'suggestive' dolls. In fact, I can not help but do it any time anyone between the ages of 5 and 9 appears on screen; hell, I whipped it out in public three times today while I was walking over to the Lush store at the mall when some elementary school kids walked by me. [/sarcasm] You must be a screwed up person if you really find those pics 'erotic in an uncomfortable way'. I can call Sesame Street erotic if I want, but that doesn't mean it is or is intended that way. I hate to break this to you, but there is far more than one type of 'attraction' in this world; for example, I ADORE the artwork and character designs in Kamichu! and have spent hours browsing the web for fanart of it, but if you tried to claim Yurie must be suggestive and erotic to garner such attention, I'd probably punch you in the face. EDIT: Oh, I'm curious too, which of these characters wears a 'mini' skirt? If the dress you were referring to is Shinku's dress... you're absolutely bona fide out of your mind to be calling that a 'mini' anything (proportionally to her tiny body anyway  )
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daxomni
 Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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You already know that I disagree that lolicon is an inherently harmless desire, but I also can't understand why anyone would try to make the case that lolicon doesn't even exist in region one. What the heck are you guys smoking? Not only is pseudo-lolicon and implied lolicon surprisingly common, but even full-on lolicon is here. Undeniable lolicon may only be sold in a limited number of titles through official channels, but it's also provided through black market pirate channels and it's apparently even being sold on the Japanese gray market through websites that provide DRM downloads and Engrish translations of their shopping cart systems. I'm willing to consider most reasonable positions, but the contention that lolicon has never even left the shores of Japan is pure BS.
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Just thought I'd take out the post for you. Pretend I never said anything.
Last edited by Steve Berry on Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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omar235
Posts: 1572 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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I didn't say anything about Rozen Maiden or about the link provided. I was just saying that there is some things that can better be described then just saying it is moe.
Besides that I have never had a problem with someone thinking I meant hentai when I said loli...maybe once but he was humble and I told him how I meant it and everything was good so this really isn't a big problem as long as people are willing to listen.
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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You know Steve Berry, you're right, he's probably not referring to that Rozen Maiden link, and that's what I thought. However, when he refers to 'that link' and there's only one link in his quote, you have to assume he's talking about that link, whether you think he is or is not. Thus, I adjusted my comments accordingly.
Also, after having a nearly 4-5 page discussion with you on the basis of the words, it should be fairly obvious to anyone who had read the thread (see the new 1 week ban rule at the top of the freaking page) that loli is not inherently a sexual term unless you misconstrue it as so. This is a personal problem on the part of the misconstruer (somehow, I don't think that's a word), and is not the responsibility of the rest of the world to correct him. If he thinks loli = lolicon hentai in the face of a discussion and rather widespread agreement that the term 'loli' should not refer exclusively to sexualized content, then he's just being stubborn unless he can provide a convincing reason why it is not. Finally, here is the problem with what Mohawk is saying: Mohawk is looking at goth loli pics and calling some of the pictures 'erotic in an uncomfortable way'. Here's the thing, he seems to be assuming that becuase there are one or two pictures that are showing some skin, it must be some sort of sexual fetish complex. THIS IS WRONG. Every model, for every type of product or every photo shoot does this, I can not think of a single example where any model has EVER deliberately gone for a non-cute or non-sexy pose. Why? Because that is how they are judged to look best. You may argue that there is some aspect of sexuality there, and I can't really disprove that, but find me a model for ANYTHING that doesn't try and play on that card and I'll show you a bad model. You ever see really fat models? Not really. Ever see a model with a nose like an elephant's? Of course not. How about a leper as a model? Ewww... Models are attractive, that's the idea; good looking people just plain get better reactions, this is just something that is true in the world, whether you want to admit it or not. Even if they're not professional models, everybody is well aware of that fact, particularly cosplayers. You can find those pictures as disgusting as you wish to read them as, but to go and assume it's all just some sort of sexual fetish without even trying to understand what is going on... that's pretty ignorant. Just as an example, I for one, am not into the whole goth loli thing (except in moe cases like Karin's little sister), but my sister is. Are you going to claim she has some sort of erotic interest in this thing? No, she just enjoys the whole fashion of it all, the way it looks, and the whole subculture associated with it. You can claim whatever you want all you want, but that doesn't mean it's true or was intended that way. EDIT: Steve Berry, stop focusing on the language, just stop it. We've already covered that, and we all should be able to tell in what context it is being used. No matter what you say, the language is NOT as important as the message, so stop trying to divert the conversation. If anything your comment should have been directed at him for misusing a term, not at someone else for being upset that he's using it incorrectly. |
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