Forum - View topicPolitics and Anime.
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ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
Posts: 708 |
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The takeaway from this post is that it’s extremely important to actually look into things. For instance, care to elaborate just where you keep hearing these things? Because turns out that no reality or statistics support those claims. Which are largely made in and by extremely regressive and heavily politicized communities such as comicsgate. Anime and manga have been gaining popularity for years because it has become more easily available internationally, the exact thing the people decrying multiculturalism and inclusion are apparently so afraid of. The idea of Japan as a mythical holy land of conservative purity is just that, a myth. It’s no surprise that anime, as an artistic medium, has also always been made by those that care about art, and that includes the fact that a large percentage of them do not fit into the rigid status quo and tell stories about that in a medium which by its very nature wouldn’t exist in the rules of the fantasy you’ve been sold. It’s a talking point literally older than the internet, and it’s no surprise to see it have a resurgence, but same as when it popped up in the past it’s still as wrong as ever. |
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Snomaster1
Subscriber
Posts: 2967 |
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That's one way to look at it,ATastySub. It seems to me you're one of those people who are big believers in the saying "The personal is political." You may have heard of it before. It was a big slogan of my mother's generation. In my view,it comes across as saying that your personal tastes in whatever are due to your political beliefs. No offense to those like my mother but I think it's absurd. You can like just about anything,a piece of music,a movie,a story,etc,and it has nothing to do with your political stances.
There have been a number of films,songs,books,and other things I've seen that have been done by people who are liberal and I've had no problem liking them. The thing I and others like me don't like is this belief that everything must be political or everything should have a political bent to it. To me,it seems so close minded to see anything and everything in a political context,even when none exists. Is it unreasonable for someone like me who just wants to enjoy a movie,TV show,or comic book without having politics rammed down my throat all the time? Here's the thing you and those like you seem to miss,ATastySub. Not everything in the world has to have a political interpretation to it. Not everything has to be political. I've encountered that stance more times in my life than I care to count. It may be how you want to view things but that's not how I want to view things. I just don't want to have every little thing,including the art and entertainment I like always having to have something to do with politics. I hope you understand where I coming from. |
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El Hermano
Posts: 450 Location: Texas |
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It's less about outside groups influencing things and more about people in key positions of power able to do what they want. As far as anime goes, there wasn't exactly a large group of people asking for a Gamergate reference in Prison School's dub. That happened because of one singular person wanted it there, usually a scriptwriter or director. For manga and light-novels, it's usually an editor or translator who decided to change something or insert a weird translation choice. Overall, I would agree the anime fandom isn't really into "political correctness", if only because anime in general is very antithetical to the concept and most people who make that concept a core part of their identity have probably written off the medium as a whole and are very dismissive of it.
It is pretty surreal to re-read some older comics as recent as the mid 2000s and remembering things that used to be boilerplate in American comics but can now only be found in manga. The wave of realization I got picking up a Marvel swimsuit special and seeing it no different than those swimsuit spread Weekly Shounen Jump does is pretty eye-opening. It's amazing seeing how two similar industry can wildly go in two different directions. |
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DavetheUsher
Posts: 505 |
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I don't know what the point of trying to pretend Japan isn't pretty socially conservative is. Like, it's pretty easy to fact check. Is it really that a big deal to admit "Yeah, Japan and their media tends to leans to the right a lot more than America does"?
It always depends on the politics. People are generally cool with politics in media so long as its ones they're not opposed to. Even the "all anime is political" crowd object when shows have messages they disagree with pop up like One Piece, Attack on Titan, Shield Hero, etc. It just so happens anime tends to not have politics the anti-PC crowd dislike. You can still tell politically incorrect jokes in anime. You can still have unapologetically sexy women in anime. You can still do all kinds of things that have mostly been phased out in American media. I know my interest in American media has greatly decreased over the past number of years because they seem more interested in focusing on certain political issues so much. If butt shots are so controversial in American video games these days, then I'll stick with Japanese games like Atlier Ryza which is unashamed about booty fanservice. |
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ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
Posts: 708 |
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And no where did I say that's not the case. In fact my entire point hinged on that. That their social conservatism is the exact thing that anime as a medium is a reaction to. Japan in these cases is always treated as "It's a conservative country so social issues don't matter there," and that is and has always been categorically false.
And things like Atlier Ryza are still niche. It's not the standard bearer of Japanese gaming, it's not even the headliner of JRPGs. It's a niche product that you enjoy and that's great, but there is no reason to pretend it's some kind of brave and majorative stand against social issues that also exist in Japan as well as anywhere else is. You're also trying to conflate criticism with censorship, which I'm sure you're fully aware you're doing, and that's a whole other level of missing the point. |
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DavetheUsher
Posts: 505 |
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I guess I should clarify I'm talking about specific things like the Mass Effect Trilogy and Diablo 2 remasters removing butts shots and other stuff in the re-releases. That's actual censorship, not just criticism. I mentioned Ryza 'cause Atelier Ryza 2 came out the same week on Steam it was announced Mass Effect Trilogy was removing those butt shots and I found the timing and contrast kinda funny is all. If that's too niche, there's Xenoblade, Final Fantasy 7, Trials of Mana, Persona 5, or whatever else you want to call a mainstream JRPGs. There's no real shortage of fanservice in those either so I gotta disagree this stuff isn't the standard for Japanese video games. Though I'd totally argue criticism is still a valid issue people can have People are understandably going to get pretty tired of being scolded all the time. It shouldn't be a surprise people then get into a medium and join a community that largely agrees with them to avoid all that. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15592 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Maybe I am not fully in the know, but what I heard about Mass Effect stuff was a lot in regards to Miranda, which I do remember coming off as kind of distracting back in the day. Like we were in scenes of learning about Miranda, and the camera angles just have to keep throwing her butt in our faces in ways that can undercut the scene. There are probably going to still be Miranda butt, but they will put them in at the right time. This is still Bioware, that only got more praise for things like more diverse sexuality in its games.
There are anime too, which either understand when there can be some fanservice over other times, or perhaps should learn there are times it can undercut itself like some of the shots in Higehiro. Also, how many on JRPGs do you have onscreen sex in? Are there even games that hint at it? |
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El Hermano
Posts: 450 Location: Texas |
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You are correct. The camera will be changed in the remastered trilogy of Mass Effect to eliminate those butt shots and camera angles. Although the Bioware and Blizzard of today are not the same companies as they were in the past.. Most if not all of the founding staff of these studios have departed the company. Both companies used to subscribe to the 'sex sells' method, but their new leadership has since moved away from that kind of stuff, for better or worse. On the issue of sex scenes, I think that's more of a cultural difference in media and how Japan's views PDA. The closest I can think of outside actual adult games are those scenes that fade to black and imply two characters spent time together overnight but nothing is explicitly said like in Persona 5 and other titles. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15592 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I haven't really been that interested in their recent games, Andromeda really fails to really pull me in. But following Dragon Age: Inquisition, I would bet that DA4 will probably be more explicit with things like sex. Have been playing Assassins Creed Valhalla recently, and the game lets play pretty bisexual with explicit nods to sex, to say nothing of the things I can do in Cyberpunk 2077. If anything I would say that considering the the saying that all art is political, you probably could easily read into a lack of sex in Japanese stuff outside of actual porn, to be something. I remember playing Ghost of Tsushima last year, which is actually a western game, and wondering if it was Japanese they would have shown Jin's butt like they do when he goes into a hot spring. Sure, some Japanese games have the history of things like jiggle physics, but it is not really the same thing as some bare breasted characters in some games. I only played a little bit so far, but I might go so far as to say that Yakuza: Like A Dragon is a step beyond certain things, like admitting that sex is a real, but also arguably very political on its stance against the likes people who rail about purity, and says that prostitutes are just trying to make a living. I wouldn't say a whole lot of anime really follow much of its stuff, but the common ideas of keep everything pure, that anything that looks like it could be sex will always be some misleading words, or its just super sexualised hentai where everything is dirty. Maybe you have some weird shows that cross between the two, and a particular show that comes to mind is My First Girlfriend is a Gal, which I remember as something very confusing. When it first was coming out I kind of thought maybe they would do something interesting in terms of showing these "Gals" as being upfront with their sexuality, but that they are more than their sexuality and can be their own terms. In the end you have some weird mix where the heroine has to be extra pure (and thus desirable) but everything is also super sexual in a way that kind of just feels exploitative, that it is all a fetish of having a big boobed young looking childhood friend, and I think a clingy lesbian. It might not look like it, but there is something a politics there, where these character types are just a fetish. Where it wants to be saucy, but only so much as an easy to consume fantasy where one could say it is at least not porn or something. And for contrast I will mention Please Tell Me Galko-chan, which I would say is the opposite side of the spectrum. You have a show with a titular character who is only flashy/fashionable for her own reasons, not as someone's sex object, with a main theme of not judging people based on assumptions, and asking questions that many people in their culture might be too afraid to ask. There is kind of something inherently political in that, and I would say it is kind of opposed to MFGIAG. Maybe things don't look like something political, because you might imagine that the only ones who would be against something like someone having the existence of looking like a gal, or being a fetish fo irt, would be some fuddy duddy not worth paying attention to. But I also bring to mind shows like O Maidens in Your Savage Season or even a sex comedy like Shimoneta to see how things like purity or the appearance of purity can kind of be a big thing. |
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El Hermano
Posts: 450 Location: Texas |
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CERO is notoriously strict in Japan. Even the nudity in western games like Grand Theft Auto V are removed in the Japanese versions of those games to be able to be sold in the Japanese market. Video games are surprising restrictive in Japan compared to other mediums. Anime and manga are free from those guidelines, though.
I suppose what is and isn't political is ultimately up to the eye of the beholder. It's also how you can get two wildly different interpretations of the same piece of media. Attack on Titan can be be labeled as fascist right-wing propaganda one day and anti-racist left-wing literature the next. In my personal experience though. I haven't seen any Japanese franchise get so polarizing as Star Wars, Marvel and DC,, Dungeons & Dragons, Magic the Gathering, or any of those kinds of hobbies which seem to have become such a hotbed of dissonance and controversy over the past decade. Anime and manga may have their own politics, but they are apparently not the kind that cause such huge fandom splits like you see in a lot of western communities. Perhaps I'm just not privy to them, though. |
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Probablytomorrow
Posts: 170 |
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I don’t mean to be contrary, but I don’t think that phrase means that your personal tastes are created by your political beliefs. I think it’s the other way around. It’s your personal desires/tastes that create your political beliefs. In other words, if you cherish something, then that gives you the political power to defend it. It’s a phrase that means your feelings matter. If you look at it that way, then all art is indeed political. Making art means taking the stance that art is good. If you like art, then you’re more inclined to take the stance that art has a right to exist. Politics doesn’t have to be overt, preachy, condescending, or controversial. People just make it that way, intentionally and accidentally. |
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 671 |
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You're both off base. "The personal is political" has nothing to do with taste. Snomaster especially, deciding on your own interpretation of the slogan without actually looking into what it means and then using that as an excuse to dismiss it does not help. "The personal is political" was originally used by second-wave feminists to point out that things seen as personal, private problems, like women being unhappy while adhering to gender roles or domestic violence, were in fact political issues. It was a call for collective action to combat these problems, and has led to things like shelters for survivors of abuse and the criminalization of marital rape. These days, the meaning has more to do with personal choice. Is my decision whether to be a toddler teacher or an education lobbyist, to read josei manga or seinen, to wear makeup and dresses or not, to marry a man, political? If I had pushed to go into a male-dominated field, would I be blazing a path for other women? Or by teaching preschool, am I making a political statement that there's no shame in working in a traditionally female career? What politics are shaping my decisions, and do my decisions shape politics? I'm not fan of this mindset for a few reasons. For one, even if politics do shape everything, it's exhausting to try to analyze decision I make from that lens. Plus, unlike the original usage of it, treating my personal choices as political activism de-emphasizes the need for systemic change. Does my choice as a bisexual woman to marry a man I love really affect marriage equality? Does a trans woman facing corrective rape really give a crap about whether I wear pink or not? So, how does this connect to "all art is political"? A lot of ways! Consumer-driven media exists within the system of capitalism. To bring this back to anime - when production companies are deciding what to make, whose stories get told, and who will their primary audience be? Who gets to tell them? How are the people bringing this vision to reality treated? What compromises are you making in order to increase mass appeal? It's in the story and animation - does it challenge the status quo, or settle comfortably into it? If there are queer characters, will you write and animate them in a stereotypical way? What are you expressing with the story's themes? What do you assume is just normal and natural, when some people may disagree, as in the role of gender and the family in Darling in the Franxx?
You're actually close here. What's up to interpretation isn't the presence of politics, but rather what the politics are saying. That's why you get such vicious disagreements over series like Attack on Titan or Kill la Kill; there's not necessarily a single hard-and-fast meaning most of the time. The nature of art is such that it will be interpreted by the audience. And yes, some of the reason why you don't see controversy from Japanese fans over franchises there is because I assume you're not out there spending time in Japanese fan spaces, while some of the reason is cultural differences in communication styles. Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it doesn't exist. {Mod Edit} Leave out the personal insults and name calling when making your point(s). ~ Psycho 101 |
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BBally
Posts: 84 Location: UK |
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Great Mazinger had an entire episode dedicated to showing how stupid racism is. (That is if calling out racism is considered "political", which according to some people it is)
https://twitter.com/BBally81/status/1348486006077587458 Osamu Tezuka got political in his works even his more mainstream friendly works like Astro Boy and he wasn't very subtle about it. In the Blue Knight arc, plot about robots leaving mans world for their own utopia was openly compared to the immigration of Jews to what's now Israel. I remember an episode of Dirty Pair actually stopped to proclaim "Trans Rights" back when it wasn't openly supported in Japan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA1wktTf4hs |
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Beltane70
Posts: 4010 |
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I remember that Dirty Pair episode and was quite impressed with its positive message about transgender people, particularly the man's son not caring that his fiancee was once a man.
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5991 Location: Virginia, United States |
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As American society has gotten more polarized, the middle ground has gone into hiding. This is reflected in anime fandom too. If you don't agree 100% with the left or the right, your dead meat. Now I am just tired of it all. The old wisdom still hold true, only talk to people you know can handle political talk. Don't talk to strangers.
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