Forum - View topicBest Supporting Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18571 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I have actually been thinking about doing this anyway, so it will get implemented going forward. |
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TatsuGero23
 Posts: 1277 Location: Sniper Island, USA (It's in your heart!) |
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I think one of the bigger reasons as to why people either lost interest or that there were less votes in general was because we had to defend each vote. While its a cool since it generates conversation and is a reasonable requirement, some characters have only so much "on paper" merits outside of emotional impacts that your often repeating yourself by the 3rd or 4th round. So some people unable to think of more merits or willing to regurgitate comments merely just lost interest; didn't have the time to think of additional things; or couldn't vote since they couldn't post a new argument cause they felt incline to present something new thus making them feel it was pointless to vote or had their vote not count.
But at the same time its not a bad thing since you start peeling away at a character and hopefully dig past the "more well known/popular' barrier. Unfortunately it also puts strong competitors under a mircoscope which may not be fair just because another character has more on their list. Maes Hughes is a good example of the pros and cons. Few can argue how enjoyable and how well he embodied the overall idea of the tournament but he doesn't have much on his list compared to the majority of contenders in the contest. Then again the mircoscope made it so that it wouldn't really surprise anyone if any of the semifinalist could have won the tournament given they had a good argument made for them. So while not nesscarily a flawed system, it does give a bit of a restriction so the vote drop off should be expected. So maybe we need a way to loosen the voting up again? Maybe if you did give an argument in the previous round, you can just give a vote the next round if you wanted too. Or a point/counter-point system where when someone does make an argument against a character, then comments or reasons are required. But this counter-point must be made with the first vote (for formality) so things don't get lost in the comments to follow. So for example (random pairing): Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs Ichiro Mihara, Angelic Layer You vote and argue for Ichiro but you as argue against Ami. Then comments/arguments for that pairing must be made. Maybe the first 4 votes will be exempt from commenting if the argument or counter-point was made later during the voting. Everyone else will have to to post an argument or edit their post to make there vote for that pairing count. And last minute (last hour?) counter-points would not count. Or they would execute a 24 hour extension. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16974 |
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Well this one was during the middle of summer. I think a lot expected participation to be a bit down this time. I mean everyone was out doing stuff. Going on vacations, being outside, and just doing things beyond being on a computer. I expect regardless of size or subject the next would have a higher participation. You mention also how the 64 tourny would allow for an easier narrowing down of worthy characters during nominations. I think that is a bad thing honestly. Again it would eliminate many characters that may not SEEM worthy but will surprise you as the tourny goes on. We've seen it happen many times have we not? Many times we've seen under dog characters provide amazing upsets. Several of those characters might not have made it in with the half sized character pool. I also agree with Oliff that the larger size does give these tournies a nice epic feel to them. Like a big battle royal with characters fighting for dominance to move on to the next opponent. I also think the winning topic plays a huge roll. I mean I could see a smaller size if we had the proposed "Best Older Character" tournament. The character pool I don't think would be narrowed down too much. But one like Biggest Badass or even previous ones like Best Villain or Best Duo simply would have felt....weak with the half sized character pool. Not as epic.
I think you are actually right. I think the new rule did eventually help deter some later round voting as people were often regurgitating previous reasonings. I know myself personally by the semi-finals I was a lean mean repeating machine. Hell I even copied my own previous reasonings once heh. But there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong saying the same things if it's what you honestly believe. I think while we might have lost some due to it the benefits outweigh that loss. I mean once it got past round 2 no longer did we have to suffer through endless votes with no substance. No coin flips for later rounds where you should have real reasonings. I think first round picks are fine being open to whatever and having just 2-3 require reasons in the second round is also easy. After that you should have to put in some real reasonings I think so the new rule overall I think is worth any loss in votes. Again I am of the mind that being during the middle of summer also did not help and the next one would have a higher turn out regardless. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I think it would still be good to try a smaller field for one of the tourneys and see if that does help the numbers. We can speculate all we like about whether it will help or hinder things but we'll never know for sure without trying it. And it has been discussed a few times before.
And if it doesn't work and we think the resulting field was too limiting, we can change it back. Of course, if it does end up that Badass is the next tournament, it might not be the best to test it, since we know that category alone is going to be fairly divisive among the current voters, myself possibly included. |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Smaller field equals bad in my opinion. You end up eliminating great choices from shows that lack the popularity, and you give an even bigger edge to characters from more popular shows. The biggest reason why we didn't get the votes was the topic. Its criteria was a bit vague, but I have to admit requiring reasons probably did that too.
Also is there any update on the min-game? Don't look at me, but I have a feeling that my meddling may have caused this delay. 
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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I am also against a smaller field. We already had many worthy contenders squeezed out to make room for what i felt where characters from popular Anime that where in fact far less deserving of a slot. If we narrow the field we will get an even higher ratio of popular characters. And that's not a good thing.
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16974 |
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I think trying one at some point wouldn't be a bad idea as you are right there's no way to know unless we try. I think though like I said it depends on what tournament we get. Some would be more conducive to a smaller field as opposed to others. Plus we could always simply pick the next one and go through a normal regular sized nomination field and see how strong the arguments are for the candidates. If half wind up with "because he pwns" or "she's hawt" one liners for their reasoning to be included then maybe cut the tourny down at that point. I think the first step is finding out WHICH tournament is next and then go from there. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Here's a suggestion; cut the tournament nomination segment and just make it Biggest Badarse (or the like). It has had strong support in many previous nomination rounds, it is still massively popular, and it's time is pretty much due. Why bother holding a formal nomination process when it's going to win handily? Key was talking before as if it was in the front of his mind. Let's just do it. Me? I'm not too keen on it, but I'll support it. Partly because I want it out of the way so people will shut up about it, but also because it could be fun and popular (if vague and highly subjective). As I said before, let's just do it. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Not really. It may have often seemed like turn out was exceptionally low going into the weekends, but we had a number of people who regularly voted on Monday or Sunday. Two people even managed to get 17 of their 18 votes in on Monday (both missed two weeks, for whatever reason). 
Turnout was a little on the low side of average, but there were no new records for lowest participation on any given week or overall. If you look at the graphs, you generally see a rapid initial drop off, then after the first round (four weeks), it stays fairly level. Also, sorry for delaying posting the final mini-game results for so long. Although a couple people really took off early in the scores, there was never a clear winner until the very, very end. I ultimate chose to follow Key's decision on the official scoring, which affected the placing of the top 4 entrants, but the handling of the prizes was worked out with those concerned, and I would like to thank them all for the politeness and cooperation with which they handled a potentially volatile situation. I think it is a testament to the quality of the community that the situation was resolved so easily. Key finished with 170 points, Olliff with 166*, mow123 with 145, and dtm42 with 143*. Skylark moved into 5th in the final round with 139, edging out TG23 (135), and Sea Lion (131) jumped from 13th place at the end of the quarter finals to 7th with perfect scores in the semis and the final. *Would have been 10 points higher if the final vote hadn't broken the Balalaika/Urahara tie. Last edited by Dorcas_Aurelia on Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I just spent a half-hour looking at my Minigame.
I noticed that the "Breakdown" page has the final scores listed in descending order, which doesn't match with the names. I'm pretty sure Key didn't get 87 points. Anyway, just for curiosity, I compared my Minigame picks to my actual voting behaviour. Of the 127 matchups in the tournament, I voted in 59 of them. Of those 59, 8 did not have my pick for the winner of that matchup (as he/she had been eliminated in a previous round). That leaves 51. Of the 51, I voted against my Minigame pick 10 times (see below). Therefore, my percentage of Minigame "fidelity" was 80.4%. I'd be interested in hearing how closely other people followed their Minigames. I technically could work it out by myself using Dorcas_Aurelia's data, but not being especially proficient in Excel it would take me ages to do everyone. Anyone want to share? Eri (who got my vote) over Naru (my Minigame pick) Mendoza over Kazukio Kimura over Satoshi Renge over Jung Lory over Ushio Nabeshin over Takumi Franz over Balalaika Stresemann over Rakashun Pedro over Ami Nabuca over Hughes |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Apparently I copy and pasted from the wrong table. I've re-uploaded the spreadsheet and adjusted the link. And what the heck, in case anyone is curious, THIS is the monster that I actually use myself to keep track of these tournaments. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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That's just sick. I'm really quite glad that I don't have to interact with that abomination every week. I'd go mad, simple as that. The fact that you haven't (lost your sanity) must be a testament to incredible mental fortitude. Although, I have to wonder at how sane a person is who does this job willingly. Okay, so I'm an outsider looking in; I'm sure it all makes sense to you. Still, I will never complain about how late the Minigame results are again. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I'd still like to see if there are other ideas, especially since often ideas that may not win the first time they are suggested go on to be re-worked and end up becoming the choice for a later round (which is what happened for best supporting character, where I know there was a similar idea suggested by me at least during the last tournament and quite possibly an earlier). Plus I honestly want to see if we can get something more interesting than Badass because I really don't know if I would even bother with that one and, considering this is generally the only thread I involve myself in most of the time, it would mean I might cut ANN out of my daily internet rounds entirely without a tournament I care about. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Looking at your profile I have to agree that most of your recent posts have been in this thread. I checked the first three pages, and the tally is 29 posts here out of a possible 45. Yeah, I can understand why you wouldn't want Biggest Badarse; it would cut your posting down by a huge margin. And as I said before, I'm not that enthused by the very idea of it either.
Alright then, I do believe you should be given the chance to champion a different tournament. But, and I'm just saying, Biggest Badarse is going to happen eventually. Even if you nominate a really cool idea this time, and it is taken up, you're just delaying the inevitable. Don't you just want to get the pain over with instead of having it hang over your head like the Sword of Damocles? |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5634 Location: Southern California |
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I don't think that the number of characters in the tournament should be cut back. Stick with what we have been using. I think that people would lose out on an anime. Because of one of the previous tournaments, I got Banner/Crest of the Stars and enjoyed the hell out of it.
I also have to say, let's just do Best Badass. It's been on the list for the past 2 or 3 Tournaments. Let's just do it and get it done. Then it won't be hanging over our heads anymore. |
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