Forum - View topicAnswerman - Quick Answers Part 4
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relyat08
Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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Your argument is getting shaky here. Anime IS made for streaming services now. I'm sure you've been making this argument for years, and it's been true in the past, but it's about time to stop because anime is now being made FOR Netflix, Crunchyroll, Tencent, and domestic streaming services as well, with revenue expectations hinging very heavily on streaming potential. And the primary market for anime is much more international than before as well. It's still Japan, but not by a huge margin. Even by the end of 2017 we could see industry revenue hit 50% internationally. It's over 40% already and hit 35% just on streaming and license rights in 2015. |
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Stuart Smith
Posts: 1298 |
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I think you're confusing the existance of overseas revenue with the correlation that a work was made specifically for overseas. Unless a show was financed by an overseas company, like a Chinese co-production, it's a bit presumptuous to say shows like Gintama, Detective Conan,and One Piece and other shows that traditionally do poorly here are made specifically for American audiences in mind. It also ignoes the number of series that do not get streamed to begin with. A traditionally produced anime's return is always going to be the domestic market. Even a sure hit like Dragonball Super took over a year to get released, and Toei didn't seem that concerned on missing out on American money during that time, struggling to make ends meet relying only on domestic revenue.
-Stuart Smith |
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relyat08
Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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Nope, I'm not. What part of "40% of industry revenue, soon to be 50%, comes from overseas" and "anime is now being made FOR Netflix, Crunchyroll, Tencent, and domestic streaming services as well, with revenue expectations hinging very heavily on streaming potential." did you misunderstand?
I didn't say shows like Gintama, Detective Conan, and One Piece are made specifically for an American audience. You seem to be grasping as straws and misrepresenting my argument.
You're citing some of the biggest shows the industry has ever seen and saying that's the reason anime, as an entire medium, doesn't rely on international revenue? Sorry, but the vast majority of anime aren't the hugest domestic hits and DO rely on it. Like I mentioned before, WE DO HAVE INTERNATIONAL COMPANIES FINANCING ANIME. Lots and Lots of it. I would argue that the majority of anime these days has some international financing, a good number are majority funded internationally, and then there are indirect contracts that are essentially funding anime as well, like Amazon's several partnerships with entire TV blocks to stream all of their anime. It was noted when the Noitamina deal was brokered that the amount Amazon paid for that block for one year was enough to fund nearly every anime set to be produced for the block within that time period. And there are dozens, if not hundreds, of interviews with producers citing their very specific interest and focus in the international fandom and market over the last few years because that's where the money now is coming from. You are living in a past decade, time to move on. Last edited by relyat08 on Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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No, I'm saying that the majority of shows were not meant to be watched for free. People put blood, sweat and tears into producing these shows, and we get the privilege of watching them at a price. Unless they are released free on Youtube like Studio Trigger's early shorts, the people who make anime expect that the majority of the audience will value it enough to pay for it. Today, that could be through paying to use a streaming service, watching a show streaming with ads, purchasing digital downloads or buying or renting discs. But virtually no content creators support piracy, and many have come out explicitly against it. Talking about discs, your legal rights to use them are limited precisely because you do not own the shows. Technically, making copies and selling or even freely distributing them, and even showing them to a big group are illegal. Your legal rights to watching the show are limited to personal use, and in that respect, it isn't that different from buying a digital download. |
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Stuart Smith
Posts: 1298 |
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That is an incredibly bold claim, I assume you have a list with proof and specific shows? There's a few upcoming co-pros like RoboMasters, but what current Summer anime is made for the west exactly? Sorry, but given how insular the industry is with Japan-only media adaptions, you have to see how saying all the manga, light novel, and VN adaptions being aimed at western audiences sounds ridiculous. How many times has a show's Crunchyroll numbers been cited as the reason for a new season as opposed to disks sales or manga/LN bumps? - Stuart Smith |
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yuna49
Posts: 3804 |
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This discussion has quickly moved to "exclude the middle." Wouldn't a better formulation be that some shows may be developed with an eye to foreign audiences and with support from foreign investors? Long-running shows like Gintama and One Piece obviously don't fall into this category nor do many series like, say, Sakura Quest. But what about shows like Princess Principal or Made in Abyss? Those shows are being streamed in the US, Europe and Brazil. In the US they are carried on Amazon. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that their production committees had an interest in foreign distribution from the outset.
The encyclopedia entries for these shows do not list any Asian countries where they are streamed. I'd be especially curious to see which shows the Chinese government allows to be shown there given its growing importance as a market for anime.
Source: 2016 report from AJA (http://aja.gr.jp/english/japan-anime-data) |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5914 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Think you are playing semantics. You do own the show. You can watch it anytime and anywhere you want. It will still be in your home long after the streaming sites, legal and illegal, rotate it out for newer and more popular fare. In the context of a home collection, you do own it. You just don't have the right to make money off of it by broadcasting it or charging others to watch it. |
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relyat08
Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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I spend significantly more time looking at anime credits than I should like to admit, to be honest, and yeah, you see international companies on the committee all the time. You're misrepresenting my argument once again, with your juvenile all-or-nothing understanding of my position, but for the record, there are quite a few shows this season with international funding or money involved, including The Reflection, 18if, A Centaur's Life, I think Saiyuki Reload Blast(?) and everything on Amazon or Netflix, if you include their streaming package deals. This is NOT to say they are "made for the west", as you so quickly assume I mean, but international money is involved. And international revenue is important to the success of many of them.
That's because you're warping what I'm saying to fit your argument. Please stop. I'm not, and never have said, that ALL of anything is being aimed at a western audience. When citing the importance of the international audience, I've specifically used the term "international audience" because China and Asia are a HUGE part of this. I noted Tencent as well. Regardless of that nuance, my point is that the international audience is extremely important and I've given you a link with plenty of statistics to prove that. Not that everything is made for the west. Almost nothing is aimed at one specific market or audience. They want to appeal to as many people as they can, which, naturally, includes people all around the world! My original comment was about the importance of streaming for anime as a whole, not even specifically the international market, but now we're here. Yeah, streaming both domestically and internationally is super important. Way more so than Blu-ray and DVD sales looking at that chart. yuna49 grasped my position in about 2 sentences, so I'm not sure why this is so difficult for you. Nothing here is quite as black and white as you are trying to suggest Stuart. Last edited by relyat08 on Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:53 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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Ever read those FBI warnings? You're not allowed to make money off the shows on your discs by broadcasting them or charging others to watch it or for copies, but you are also not allowed to screen it to a large audience for free without permission, or to distribute copies of the show, digitally or on discs, for free. You own the discs, you do not own the shows. They are still copyright protected. Thus, the practical, legal, difference between digital downloads and discs are: 1. Portability; 2. Resellability; 3. Less likely to be accidently erased or destroyed, so long term keep and storage. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5914 Location: Virginia, United States |
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You are preaching to the choir. I am talking about strictly home collection ownership. You are just saying all the illegal things that can be done. The purpose of my post was not to get into a technical argument. |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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Stuart Smith's original argument against paying for streaming access to or downloads of anime:
Thus, my argument. When you pay for discs you are no more paying for ownership of the show than when you pay for a streaming service or download. You are merely paying for the right to watch someone else's copyrighted property on a specific medium in a limited context. Either way, it is not meant to be viewed as digital data one can easily find for free. It's only semantic until someone uses "lack of ownership" as a justification for refusing to pay for digital access. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5914 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Streaming and owning a Blu-Ray disk are two separate things. They are not similar. When you own the BD or DVD, you have the show for your lifetime, (as long as you take care of the disc and there are no unknown manufacturing defects). With streaming you are at the mercy of your internet connection and the demand for bandwidth. But more importantly, the show will disappear from your provider's library sooner or later. Then you will not be able to watch it.
So I understand why Stuart doesn't want to stream, especially if he is going to buy. |
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mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
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4K blu-rays do require an internet connection (and that the authentication server is still working), so in a sense they are like streaming (with lower bandwidth requirements). |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5914 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I haven't seen any 4K anime BD's. Since I don't have a 4K BD player, I am not familiar with the process. Are you saying the the 4K BD player requires an internet connection, or that in order to play the 4K BD's you need to have an internet connection? Most BD players today need an internet connection to update firmware, and to allow for the playing of Netflix, HBO, and other TV apps. But it is not a requirement to play BD's, unless the firmware needs to be updated. I would assume that would be the same for 4K BD players. It would seem strange and frightening if you had to have your 4K BD's authenticated via the internet in order to play them. If so, there need to be warnings on 4K BD's stating so. Shades of XBOX One....... |
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mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
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Online authentication would require 4K players to connect to online based authentication servers every time a video is played. That being said, I have read that the first UHD aka 4k blu rays discs do not require online authentication, which IMO is no different from the lure fishermen use to make fish bite, one enough people have updated their blu-rays players they will no doubt start releasing them in force. I do not see anime with 4k being released any time soon, but that does not mean that will not release sub 4k anime in 4k media, atm few anime is true 1080p but they are still released in 1080p blu-ray discs. |
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