Forum - View topicAvatar: The Legend of Korra.
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Lycosyncer
Posts: 526 |
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As long as the new series is good and that it would help wash the bad taste of M. Night's so called "vision" of the series out of our mouths, I think it would help remedy our situation pretty good.
For The Legend of Korra, I would love to see how Bryke would top themselves with this series and judging by how they are wise to not rehash certain points from the previous series, it helps give the new series a more distinctive storyline from its predecessor. I wonder if Bryke will consider bringing in guns into the new series since the setting looks like it is set in the early 1900s rather than in the 1800s like in the last series. For the Anti-Bender Rebellion that seems to play an important role in the new series, the non-benders NEED to have some new weaponry that could give them advantage over all of the benders and I think that them having guns would be a very good idea. Obviously, I wouldn't want modern day guns but guns from spaghetti westerns/mobster flicks set in the Roaring 20s/Great Depression era will be good for this show's settings. The last time I ever saw a kids show where they handle real guns seriously without copping out is Batman: The Animated Series. It would be pretty ballsy if Bryke would manage to get away with using old-fashioned guns in the Avatar Universe but unfortunately, with Nickelodeon watching over them, I somehow doubt that there will be guns in the new series but it would be very nice and surprising if it did. As for my comment on the last series, even though I loved the Avatar series, it doesn't hold a candle for me compared to Fullmetal Alchemist, which I personally love more. Looking forward to the new series, Bryke! Don't let us down! |
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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The first series had bombs and various other explosives such as torpedoes...maybe if they make the guns really old fashioned and use a fantastical design fitting with their world, it'll work. At least I hope Nick would let them get away with it, because at the moment, non-bending warriors have to rely mostly on close-combat techniques and weapons to fight benders (chi blocking, swords, good ol' fashioned kung-fu) which puts them at a definate dissadvantage, and it would be weird to see a modern city filled with people armed with bows and arrows. Or boomarangs!
As for guns in American Cartoons, been a while since I've seen it, but didn't Gargoyles have "real guns", too? I don't think they shot laser beems, anyway... |
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Jessica Hart
 Posts: 219 |
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They use guns quite liberally in Iron Man: Armored Adventures, and that's on Nicktoons Network. Random people getting shot, and killed.
I doubt they'll do it for Avatar, though, seems too out of place. I was never a fan of the first series, so I hope this one is better. It sounds more interesting, but if it's still the same writing staff then there probably won't be much difference. I agree with the idea that they were kind of caught up being 'too Asian' and skimped out on a lot of the other stuff. I think shows like Wakfu and Iron Man do anime-influence better; more subtle and it's more about the writing than the Asian culture. |
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Lycosyncer
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I highly disagree that guns would feel out of place in the Avatar Universe. In the new series, it is set 70 years into the future and boy, this Republic City looks like it is set somewhere in the early 1900s where the Industrial Revolution has very noticeably taken its effect upon the world and just like in Rurouni Kenshin, times have changed and the old fashioned code of the Samurai is no longer needed. Also, the shift in weaponry in the series plays a heavily important role for THAT reason and I hope Avatar will do the same thing.
I don't think guns would feel out of place in the Avatar Universe, it just needs to fit with series's aesthetic design and plus, we all obviously don't want modern day weaponry, we just want guns that fit in the Spaghetti Western/Great Depression era and the new setting in the new series would fit that perfectly. The guns really do need to be old-fashioned. Despite that I do love Avatar, do I think that it's perfect? Absolutely not and I think the reasons why are pretty obvious. |
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Megabyte117
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HAHAHAHA. You're serious? All the shows you mentioned are the same shonen mediocrity that you "believe" Avatar is. |
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Amibite
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Megabyte117
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Did you even watch this series? How about Zuko's character arc over the three seasons? The characters in Avatar are more than the typical caricatures in the shonen shows you mentioned. Not to mention this series actually ended within three seasons. A feat even Naruto has not managed. I can only listen to that kid say his "dattebayo" or "Believe it" so many times. I also can't think of any strong female leads in either Naruto or DBZ. DBZ is so over the top it's hilarious. Fights going on for several episodes, and they still needed to "power up". At least the animation is very consistent in Avatar as compared to Naruto. Those shows don't nearly have the same depth as Avatar. So, I have to ask again, did you even watch the entire series? On another note, the creators never said they were envious of shows like Naruto. They apparently forced the staff to buy and watch every episode of FLCL. Other anime that were influential on Avatar were Miyazaki's films and Cowboy Bebop. Let's not give Naruto that much credit. |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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@Amibite: What do you think Naruto, Bleach and DBZ do better than Avatar? I'm curious about the specifics of your perference.
Personally, I think the depictions of war (or rather, the toll war takes on ordinary people) and the burdens of adult responsibility taken on by children are pretty well done in Avatar, and not as well done in Bleach or Naruto (Naruto is getting better at the "devastation of war" thing, but the plot rarely addresses the fact that all the key characters are basically born-and-raised chld soldiers, and Bleach...well, the first couple arcs were good.  )
I also feel that the fight scenes in Avatar are well choreographed and the plot and characterizations are done with care. Not to mention that female characters are treated with respect. The only recent shounen series I would compare Avatar to is Full Metal Alchmist, but FMA is on a different plane than Naruto and Bleach, IMHO. On guns: they actually got away with characters being shot and killed by realistic (as opposed to laser-beam) guns in Iron Man?! Wow. (Is the show worth checkng out for other reasons, too? )
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Veoryn87
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Heh. Comparing Avatar to FMA is pretty risky!
In one sense I agree with the censorship issue, but comparing it to most shonen series doesn't seem to help their case. There were plenty of red-shirts in Bleach, but never did I have to worry about the lives of any character with any ounce of significance. They got hurt during battles certainly, but everyone seems to have enough gallons of blood to fill a water tower and a will to live that matches the gods (I even had this problem in Brotherhood). BUT I'm weary of continuing such an argument. I don't think one will prove the superiority of inferiority of a series by how explicit its content is. |
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Lycosyncer
Posts: 526 |
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@Agent355
Even though I do agree with you on how the depiction of war has been treated in the series, but I feel it should have gone far more farther than what it should have been. spoiler[For example, during The Day of the Black Sun invasion arc, I thought, "Wow, for a full-scale invasion in enemy territory, I see lots of explosions and debris flying around and yet, I can't believe there was no mention or appearances of any casualties on the enemy's side of the field or even any minor deaths on the good guy's side of the field. I know that the Fire Nation knew of the invasion ahead of time but with the Fire Nation soldiers in the field holding our heroes and their supporters back, I can't believe that they never even killed some of them because after all, this is a war. Plus, I feel that Sokka should have beaten and scratched Azula during the time when she was held on the wall.] spoiler[Plus, I feel that after watching the whole series again, all that I saw was that the rest of the Fire Nation civilians are pretty supportive of the war and no, I really don't think that village in The Painted Lady counts because the villagers were depressed over how the Fire Nation ruined the lake and I don't think they've ever mentioned how they feel about the war. Plus, Jeong Jeong left the army because he said something of fearing what Firebending could do and not because he supports the Fire Nation's ideals during that time.] Plus, if there's anything I agree with the detractors of the series for, it is the fact that during the bending battles, I wished that the benders who do the bending should have been more wounded and possibly killed in battle a bit more frequently since that all of the battles that were taken place in the series is a war after all. Don't get me wrong, I do love the series but I do feel that it should have gone more further than what Nickelodeon would allow. As for that new Iron Man show, despite that it was ballsy to show and use realistic guns for a kids show, most of the fans I know hated it because it turned Tony Stark/Iron Man into a Peter Parker/Spider-Man clone when they took him into a high school setting and I called it foul. Tony Stark doesn't need to be turned into Peter Parker in order to be a likable and interesting character. Marvel canceled far superior shows like Spectacular Spider-Man and Wolverine & the X-Men for a crappy show like this? I hope that the new Avengers show coming out this fall makes up it. Last edited by Lycosyncer on Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:54 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Lycosyncer
Posts: 526 |
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@Veoryn87
Yeah, my main problem with titles such as Bleach, Naruto and Dragon Ball Z is that despite that all of the characters get badly wounded in every battle, I never once felt the fear that these characters might die during those battles at all and when they do come close to death, they miraculously survive every time. It happens so much that it just really kills all of the fear and suspense. At least with FMA, I actually do feel fear with the characters whenever they are in a huge life and death situation and when certain characters in FMA die, they stay dead and that's why I like FMA better than most of these shonen titles. As for the ridiculous amounts of blood moment, doesn't live action films sometimes do the same thing? spoiler[I still can't get over how ridiculous the final climatic battle in Kill Bill Vol. 1 went where The Bride has killed the majority of all the Crazy 88 members with lots of them have their blood ridiculously spraying all over the place with chopped limbs and all and yet she only gets away with only a few minor scratches despite that a small army has surrounded her?] Even I question what the hell was up with the ridiculous amounts of blood spraying in anime and movies as well. |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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Quentin Taratino: not known for realism.
Neither are cartoons or anime, for that matter. And yeah, besides for Zuko, Iroh, Jeong-Jeong and his followers, Piandao, and the Fire Sage who helps out Aang (am I missing anybody?  ) No one in the Fire Nation is shown actively questioning or protesting the war. Possibly because the minute you do you are banished or thrown in prison.
As for casualties, their mention is subtle, but effective. Specific scenes that stand out include Jet recalling how his village was destroyed, Sokka and Katara's Mom's murder, Song (the healer girl who invited Zuko and Iroh to dinner in season two) mentioning that she never saw her father or brother since the Fire Nation raided her former home. Then she shows Zuko a scar on her leg. The Earth Kingdom general who guilt-trips Aang by showing him a group of wounded soldiers and remarking that "these are the lucky ones, the ones who made it back." Lee (the boy who's family takes Zuko in in the ep "Zuko Alone") who's older brother presumably died in battle. Other than that, as I've mentioned before, the "main characters" of real wars--the great generals, the leaders, the Kings--tend to survive unless they are assasinated. They use others to fight and die for them. And that's how I see the main characters of Avatar. The Royal families, the greatist fighters and leaders do not die. I wouldn't expect them to. Is it unrealstic not to mention more casualties? Yes, but we aren't focusing on a group of privates or cannon fodder, we're focusing on the Avatar, his well trained comrades and the Royal Fire Nation family. On Naruto: actually, according to the "Avatar extras" pop-up commentary, the forest scenes in the episode Jet were inspired by Naruto, as well as Samurai Champloo and the movie "The House of Flying Daggers". On Iron Man: why the heck is he in high school? Tony Stark's supposed to be a rich playboy like Bruce Wain! (except his sense of humor wasn't surgically removed!) If I wanted to see Spider-Man (which I do) I'd watch more Spider-Man! (which I can't do, because Marvel cancelled the show!) What was Marvel thinking?! Still, pretty cool about the guns! |
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Jessica Hart
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You know, as a girl I kind of have to disagree with this. I didn't like the females in Avatar much, or really in many American shows. A lot of the time they come off very patronizing and know-it-all. While it's true characters like Azula and Toph are strong, I think they're poorly done. Why exactly are they strong? They're naturally gifted and born that way. Even Katara pretty much mastered waterbending in one episode once she got a teacher. It took Aang the entire series, and even Zuko and Toph point out his bending is still pretty mediocre at the end of everything before he faces Ozai. To me, it's not so much about physical strength in a fight. American media is very watchgroup focused, they have to include characters like that or be called on being sexist. A lot of females in action shows over here tend to be the 'smart, reasonable, mature, flawless girl who keeps the silly boys in check' It's like that Kim Possible show, where Ron looks like a hapless loser next to Kim who's perfect in everyway. How often do y ou see females like Ron Stoppable? Rarely, if at all, because I guess it's 'sexist' or something to say females can be flawed  I'm not perfect. I'm pretty weak and would probably get my butt kicked in a fight. I make mistakes all the time, forget things, and have to work hard to do things I do. I think I related more to Aang than any of the girls on the show.
I know people hate her and she's a joke in the fandom, but one of my favorite scenes in Naruto was Sakura defending Naruto, Sasuke, and Rock Lee from the Sound Ninja in the Forest of Death. She's a horrible fighter. She's completely outmatched. She's getting her butt kicked, face punched in, and getting completely battered, bloodied, and bruised, but her determination during that fight is amazing, as well as her thoughts on being useless and not pulling her weight after Lee, Naruto, and Sasuke have saved her countless times before. The peak of that scene for me was where she willingly lets herself be stabbed so she can get close enough to bite down on Zaku's arm while he's repeatedly punching her in the face to get her to let go. He turns her face into a bloody pulp, but she's so determined not to let them hurt Naruto, Sasuke, or Lee. She was acting like some kind of rabid, wild animal by biting down and doing anything she could to slow Zaku down, which actually made me feel the desperation and pain she was going through. We never see something like that once in Avatar: it felt like the girls in that show is too gifted and untouchable. For me, that one scene alone trumps anything I ever saw in Avatar. As for Iron Man, I don't get the Spider-Man comparisons. If you watch it you'll see they're nothing alike (Tony doesn't care about school, or friends, or being popular, and there's no teenage drama about dating or wanting to have a 'normal life' and stuff that comes standard with Spider-Man, it's all story and character development (which is the main reason I love it: there's a story there, with a planned ending thought out from the first episode; it's not just a villain-of-the-week thing, which is very rare for American shows, and just about unheard of for superhero cartoons. I also like how the villains, like Gene, are actual characters and we get to focus on their childhoods and pasts and see what makes them tick and see them grow over the series. They're not just petty bank robbers, they're people with ambitions and goals of their own. You know how Obidiah Stane was pretty evil dude in the movie? Well, in this show's he's not really evil, he's neutral and has good moments and bad moments (he saves Tony's life in one episode). I find those kinds of villains more interesting. Speaking of good females, I love Whitney in that show. She's very strong and selfless and probably my favorite character (and not to spoil anything, but she doesn't really get a happy ending after all the good things she's done.. which makes me feel for her even more, and it's rare you see things like that happen in kid's shows) I definately prefer it to the recent Spider-Man and X-Men cartoons. I normally don't like superhero cartoons, but this one is very unsuperhero-ish, it feels more like a mecha anime or something
Just my two cents on those two points |
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Lycosyncer
Posts: 526 |
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@ Jessica Hart
Don't forget the annoying sassy black girl stereotype that plagued The Proud Family. Or the annoying valley girls from Totally Spies! Yeah, despite that the females in Avatar are strong, I feel that they should have been more flawed and have their strength improve little by little over time rather than just be on the mark right away. I do agree that it would be more better and more equal to have heavily flawed female characters compared to the males. I mean, compare the Avatar girls to the famous Sailor Senshi, or the HiMEs from Mai-Hime; who do you think is more relatable? As for the Iron Man bit, a lot of fans' (myself included) problems with that show is why take it to high school? Why not just take it to Batman: The Animated Series level by having adult main protagonists and antagonists? If that new Iron Man show followed Batman's direction in how they handled the characters and how the settings were, it would definitely get a better reception. Personally, I feel Spectacular Spider-Man is better than Iron Man: Armored Adventures. |
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Megabyte117
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Interesting. I only recently listened to the commentaries for season 2 & 3. I did hear that about Samurai Champloo. But I still doubt the creators were "envious" of Naruto. I don't know who would be. Now I'll just preface this post and say - As a girl, I have more of an insight on this matter than guys. /sarcasm
You could argue being blind drove Toph to strengthen herself because of bitterness of being forced to depend on others. She's been shown to be a fiercely independent character. Yes, she is generally very confident in herself, but she puts up the strong exterior, and even at the end was attempting to confide in Zuko. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, because Azula and Toph are both incredibly flawed. Azula goes insane at the end. So she's not exactly mentally strong. Because there's not just the physical aspect you know.
Not really. She was shown to have improved enough over the first season to face Pakku. I would also assume the time difference between "Waterbending Master" and "Siege of the North Pt 1" to be around a month or so. Maybe less. Katara also spent her entire life practicing waterbending as a child. As for Aang, he's being forced to master three additional elements within less than a year. Not to mention all the conflicts in between. And Toph and Zuko (mostly) are masters in their respective elements, so any less than their own abilities from Aang, would be seen to them as "lacking". Also, what about female characters like Mai, Ty Lee, Suki, Ursa, and June? As for your argument that the female characters are too patronizing and strong, what about Princess Yue?
And in Japanese media we have weak female characters that pander after the "handsome" male protagonist and generally always fail. Hurray for generalizations!
I don't know where you get the impression that the girls in Avatar are perfect and flawless.
So she does all of this for Sasuke/Naruto/Lee and never really does anything for herself. She's a joke because she is consistently irritating and pointless. Might as well be there for the fan service I suppose.
-Yue sacrifices herself to become the Moon Spirit. -Zuko's mother sacrifices herself for him. -Toph is forced to allow Appa to be captured so she can save the rest of the gang. -Katara is defeated by Zuko when she's trying to protect Aang at the North Pole. -Mai allows herself to be captured when trying to save Zuko at the prison, knowing she could face severe consequences with Azula later on. -Ty Lee goes against Azula to protect Mai. -Azula goes insane at the end when defeated by Katara/Zuko. -Suki is defeated and captured by Azula and her minions. -Katara consistently defeated by Zuko in the first season (bar the season finale). Also, it was shown that the Water Tribe in the North Pole were incredibly sexist in only allowing female waterbenders to learn healing and arranged marriages. Seriously.
Katara noticeably improved over the first season. The characters never met Toph before she was an earthbending master. But she did eventually learn metalbending. Azula is strong, but she went insane at the end. How is that flawless? What's wrong with the female characters being as important and fleshed out as the male characters? |
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