Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Attack on Titan The Final Season Part 2
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zekro94
Posts: 91 |
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That PS: It will be addressed however there is still a lot of ground to cover until we get there, it would be spoiler to say what or how but the explanation happens in the last chapter of the manga. I hope they don't do a movie and instead continue with the anime seasonal route |
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Theozilla
 Posts: 144 Location: Oakland, California |
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The difference though, is that in those examples, the former oppressors ended up being oppressed a new external force/oppressor, not the former victims of the original oppressors themselves. Which is what is going on in AoT, which understandably makes for more messy comparisons and analysis. Also AoT runs into the same X-Men issues than many fantasy racism stories in speculative fiction fall into.
It's important to remember that Eren can't *directly* receive memories/knowledge of his own future, he would only be able to receive the future memories of future Attack Titan holder. The reason why Eren was able to gain knowledge of his own future is because his physical contact with Historia allowed him to unlock the past memories of his father, when Grisha himself was receiving the memories of Eren from the future (including the ones when Eren was witnessing the past memories of Grisha along with Zeke, hence why "two-way" communication was possible) . Last edited by Theozilla on Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Hal14
 Posts: 702 Location: Heart of africa |
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Or, just not be familiar with world history? It's interesting to hear examples of real world groups that were both oppressed and oppressors, but you don't have to be "american" or "eurocentric" to be mainly/only familiar with the examples listed in the review. I'm neither and I'm unfamiliar with those parts of history (always preferred mythology, less dates) |
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ThatMoonGuy
Posts: 364 |
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Boy, you have no idea. On the topic of empires... I think, to some extent, I can sort of get where AoT is getting at with its depiction of empires and imperialism. I live in South America, Brazil, specifically, and this country, much like South America as a whole, has been essentially a subject to the Global North. We've had US sponsored dictatorships here and everything. But, at the same time, Brazil has a history of acting as an imperialistic force in South America, having waged war against other countries and commited genocide against indigenous populations. And then there's the whole matter of slavery and its impacts. So when I think about Brazil I see a country that's both a victim and a perpetrator of violence on a historical level. I don't say that to excuse japanese imperialism or the rather clumsy use of WWII imagery in the series but to point out that, as someone once said, nationbuilding is a bloody business. And Asia in general and Japan in particular have a very... complex history with colonialism. I mean, Japan was largely a part of China's sphere of influence and then the XIX century happens and they see the once great Chinese Empire being flooded with opium and conquered by the UK. And even before that, there was the threat of the mongol invasions and the whole Gunship Diplomacy era of international relations. Modernizing and becoming an empire was a logical step because that seemed like the only way to stand against Western Colonial Powers. Doesn't help that Japan always had a bit of an imperialistic bent (see, the Korean invasions). Still, my point is, historical perspective is important when discussing things like this because it's never simple and Attack on Titan's depiction of Eldia as both the victim of Marley but also as a tyrant nation at a different point is at least somewhat understandable if we go with the "Eldia is Japan" reading of it. Then again, there's the matter of the opinion that the series has on militarism and the possibility of peace but that will have to wait for the ending. |
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StarDango
Posts: 100 |
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Please look into history more. It is extremely possible for the oppressed to become the oppressors over the people that oppressed them. Or (in another case) for the elite to become victims of the underprivileged, and for the roles to flip. The Rwanda Genocide was driven by (to put it very lightly) a long history of hatred between the Hutu and Tutsis people. Simply put, the Tutsis were identified by European colonizers to be the “superior” group. Europeans assigned the Tutsis administrative roles in the government. Europeans even went as far as to judge which of the 3 ethnic groups a Rwandan was part of based on certain factors (skin, height, intelligence etc.) and put those labels on identity cards. This strong ethnic divide ended up creating a rigid social system in Rwanda. The privileged Tutsi who were small part of the populations, and the underprivileged Hutu who were the majority in population. The tension between both groups was strong and led to multiple fights for power. The Hutu wanted to purge the Tutsi and gain control over. This even escalated to the point where Tutsis were forced into exile into neighboring countries just to avoid being killed when the government became a Hutu-majority. To say the least, a series of assassinations, political tension and revolution eventually built up to the Rwanda Genocide in 1994. Where Hutu radicals killed hundreds of thousands of Tutsi. Anti-Tutsi propaganda made the Tutsi look like enemies of the Rwanda who wanted to regain power. And the only way to prevent that was to eliminate all of them. My point with this small history lesson is that anyone, whether they were the oppressed or just an outsider, can become the oppressor. And it’s especially possible for the underprivileged/marginalized to flip the power dynamic on their oppressors. I’m sure if we look into the multitudes of Civil Wars from around the world, we’ll find that happening a lot. Whether it’s born of a America/Euro-centric lens or just historical ignorance, I still found that part of the review to be a bit annoying. As if assuming these dynamics of power in our world history are just that rigid and unchanging. |
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Kirki
Posts: 296 |
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I think AoT's message is simple within its complexity. "The world is cruel yet beautiful" = you have the right to fight for your place in it no matter the circumstances, simply because you were born into it, and nothing obligates you to allow yourself to be trampled by others. There are greater power plays and struggles in the bigger picture, but on a personal level, this is what you owe yourself to do. The other side - Zeke's side - is self hatred. You blame yourself for the bad things that happen to you and accept them hoping that your abusers will finally forgive you. Either way, when it comes down to it, both brothers are willing to make tremendous sacrifices for the things that are dear to them, and both of their plans are technically viable solutions but also morally unacceptable.
As for the war and political allegories, it's probably not as complicated as we tend to make it in these discussions. Isayama seems to agree with Tanaka's (Legend of the Galactic Heroes) opinion that "no matter how much time passes, the deeds of men remain the same" (I have forgotten which Greek philosopher was it who said that... Heraclitus, maybe?). That is to mean, they believe that war will always be a part of human nature, along with the atrocities it brings, and nothing can change that. It doesn't matter who started what and how - it's in our nature to come after each other's throats, in the same way it's in our nature to love each other and care about one another. Isayama barely even morally judges that contradiction. Pretty bleak if you ask me, but I can respect it as an interpretation of humanity. And of course I don't agree with any takes on exploitation of iconography and such. By this logic, every movie and piece of media that deals with war stories is capitalizing on human suffering. As long as the atrocities of war are not portrayed as a positive thing, it's actually very important they exist because we do need reminders. |
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db999
Posts: 319 |
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I really enjoyed the review and am enjoying the discussion going on in the comments about how real-world history matches up with the fiction of the show. I think that trying to tie in a 1:1 allegory for the story doesn’t work and is very messy if we try to think of it in that way because it’s not a clean 1:1 allegory. It’s also really weird because the Eldians can both stand-in for both the Jewish people and Japanese people at the same time which is why a 1:1 allegory does not work because the contexts between these separate groups of people are both so different and depending on which group you think the Eldians are supposed to be an allegory for.
As someone who is Jewish reading, this monthly was a real rollercoaster for me and there were times when I almost dropped the manga because I wasn’t sure where it was going. Ultimately I personally don’t have a problem with this and don’t think the author was trying to make the allegory 100% direct, but I don’t speak for all Jewish people so I do understand that others might end up having a much bigger problem with it and come to a different conclusion that I do. It’s also possible that the author wasn’t intending the metaphor to be so messy and made a mistake with using the Armbands for the Eldians, but he did use this iconography so we have to talk about it and that did make the metaphor very messy. Then again real-world history is also messy and sometimes difficult to parse through so these issues might have been present even if Iseyama didn’t directly use real-world iconography Having finished the series I think the author is clearly using real-world history and iconography to help add a sense of credibility to the message he wants to impart about the cycles of violence and war that happen in the real world. That’s part of why I love the ending to the series, no spoilers but specifically the addition to the ending that was in the collected volumes and which I hope the anime will include because I think the message is so much clearer with that addition than it was without it. I think it'll be easier to discuss when the anime is over and the full story is adapted because then anime-only viewers won’t have to speculate as much on what the story is trying to say. I personally don’t read the series as being pro nationalism or pro fascism but to fully explain why would necessitate spoilers so I’ll hold off until the series is complete. |
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Dark Mac
Posts: 321 |
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Are you familiar with the Rwandan genocide? The Tutsis had power and oppressed the Hutus for decades, and then when the Hutus took over they killed half a million Tutsis in a year. The formerly oppressed oppressing their former oppressors has precedent in real life. |
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James_Beckett
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 282 Location: USA |
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To respond to this, and the many other similar responses: While I appreciate the many nuanced examples of power dynamic reversals from throughout history, I feel that there is an appreciable and relevant difference when it comes to Attack on Titan. It is clearly wrestling with themes and allegories specific to the post-war experiences of Japan, leading up to the modern day. As I (and many other people) have commented on before, what makes the Eldians' position in their historical narrative so tricky is that their dehumanization and subjugation was communicated using *very* specific imagery that is directly rooted in WWII and the Holocaust. This is a very recent and still quite painful experience for cultures all over the world (which isn't to say that events such as the genocide in Rwanda are not). In WWII, Japan's government acted as an explicitly aggressive, Imperialist, and arguably genocidal force. They allied themselves with the Nazis. Also, regardless of the difficulties that the Japanese have faced in the years following WWII, I think it would be incredibly difficult—borderline ludicrous— to argue that the Japanese position the global theater of international politics is in any way similar to the victims of the Holocaust. (And just in case someone tries to use this as a counter-argument, no, I am not discounting the terrible destruction and civilian casualties caused by the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the firebombing raids that came before that. All of that is a discussion for another day). What I was pointing out is that I think we are being invited to read Attack on Titan's allegory as a fairly direct commentary on Japan's post-war constitution and the consequences of its inability to build an army or wage war. At the very least, it is *one* reading of the story's themes that feels like it hold up to quite a bit of scrutiny, and I don't think it is ludicrous for me to point out that it is kind of weird for the story to even possibly be implying that "Being made to feel bad about our country's very real and terrible war crimes" is some kind of slippery slope that could eventually lead to being treated as sub-human monsters who deserve to be genocided out of existence. Granted, the show seems to be explicitly against *denying* war crimes, but so much of this thematic muddiness could have been avoided (or at least lessened) if Isayama hadn't put those damned gold stars on the Eldians in Marley and leaned so heavily into imagery that I really don't think he was prepared to fully interrogate. To be clear, there is nothing about the literal, in-universe backstory of the Eldians that is nonsensical or unbelievable. It's how thay backstory plays into the story's deeper themes that is troublesome, and worth taking a critical look at. |
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jdnation
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In that case, I commend AoT for doing its job and getting viewers to face this discomfort and dilemma. The questions the "right-wingers" raise are not dismissable, just because one doesn't like their implications. I would also point out that it is an easily refutable straw-man opinion that anyone out there seeks to "minimize or outright deny the very real crimes" in history. That is in and of itself an absurd caricature being used by the "left-wing" propagandists who one can turn around and equally accuse of leveraging for mob-driven political power. And around and around we go arguing whose history is correct. One side is dedicated to documented material, another side is driven by emotionalism and historical revisionism and destroying individual liberties in law for group oppression. Are you really sure which one you are? Are you starting to entertain doubts? In that sense, like the Attack Titan's power, time and history are caught up in a circular pattern of feedback and instigation. We also have the dualities of Eren and Zeke. Arguably, Zeke is the guy ready to make reparations, but also sees the absurdity of perpetual repayment and that it just leads to more and more conflict and suffering. His way out is for the end of Eldians, phased out through sterilization. Then their people will be free and the world.will have to carry on without using Eldians as a scapegoat and convenient object of hatred. Eren is rightfully pissed. He is not going to keep bending over and living in terror for things he is not personally responsible for, nor his friends. More can be said, but this ventures into spoilers, so it would be best saved for elaboration towards the end. But it's safe to say that Eren is willing to exercise the deterrent nuclear option. He has seen the world outside and it continues to be a crappy violent war-filled discriminatory place even with the majority of Eldians being locked away and cut off from the world for hundreds of years without anyone out there even having the balls to tell them why to their faces. Is that considered reparations justice if the accused has no idea what his crime even is? On top of that a select few Eldians with their Titan powers comfortably serve and aid in this fiasco. why that Eldian and nkt this one? Also the oppressor/reparations-victim is willing to leverage the Eldian terror for their own conveniences against other people. Is that not hypocrisy? The answer is that it always depends on political convenience. Ethical consistency does not matter. That also gets to the heart of a lot of history of discrimination. Generations later, certain groups of people continue to be picked on, even long after both sides have forgotten why. It just becomes habitually ingrained to hate that guy because that is what your father did and his father's father did. At some point history and the "why" of it all is gone. It is also the case that even if a sanction or reparation or discriminatory program is justified, there is a moment in which it goes too far. It's one thing to cut a man from entry into a club or certain positions in society or even a tax on his existence. But the moment his life is threatened to such an extent that you are pretty much pushing him towards starvation and death and complete existential non-existence that his survival is threatened, then he is going to cease caring who did what first to who and why in history. If it means that you give him no other option than death, then he is going to become the very thing you fear and accuse him of if it means his survival. So Eren is going to become the thing that everyone feared Eldia to be capable of. He has absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. Why can he not have his revenge? |
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Taederias
Posts: 37 |
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Putting a pause on discussing the heavier political themes, I would like to point out that there has been another aspect of everything thus far that very heavily pointed toward what the Attack Titan’s true ability is about, one that is quite on the nose once one knows what they are looking at (but is fairly innocuous until then).
Notably, while most other shifters have been shown to have some access to the memories of their previous inheritors, Eren barely experienced such a thing outside of touching someone with royal blood. We knew that royal blood was necessary to fully utilize the Founder’s power, but that says nothing about the Attack Titan, which Eren also did possess. What is more, whenever Eren did see something, it was from previous holders of the Founder (Grisha and Frieda), and not, say, Eren Kruger. The reason for that is of course, at this point, clear: while the others of the Nine are able to look at the memories of the previous holders to a differing degree, the Attack Titan is instead able to show their own memories to the past inheritors. |
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Theozilla
Posts: 144 Location: Oakland, California |
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I am well aware of said histories, and I am not claiming that societal role reversals are not possible and/or never occur, but that in real life there are almost always externalities to factor in as well. Using your own Rwanda example, the ethnic hierarchy was significantly shaped and molded by European powers and colonizers, who themselves were oppressors to various African peoples in general. Additionally, the scale of comparison is very different as well. My overall point being that the complexities of oppressor/oppressed are often far more complicated than simple binaries, and is more complicated than what AoT can properly explore. Also as James said, the themes and imagery with AoT are drawing upon far more specific ideas than just general abstract oppressed and oppressor dynamics. And the X-Men issue is another aspect that muddies the thematic execution. |
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Tenbinzan
Posts: 60 |
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Episode 79:
James did a good job summing up the uneasy implications of AoT's plot in regards to modern Japanese politics. Lynzee did a good job on the ANN Aftershow, too. That said, neither the royal family's nor Eren's extreme beliefs are portrayed in a positive light in episode 79. The royals' dedication to eliminating Eldia to atone for their ancestors' sins is depicted as over-the-top and unjust -- but Eren, who is enraged by the First King's renunciation of war, and speaks of "stealing the freedom" of those who threaten his freedom, is framed as an ominous threat to the world that must be stopped. At the end of the day, I keep going back to one of the series' most empathetic characters, Mr. Braus (Sasha's dad). His "children of the forest" speech talks about how adults must take responsibility for the "sins of the past," so the young aren't plagued by a never-ending cycle of pain, hatred, and conflict. Marley, Eldia, past generations, future generations... "We've gotta keep the children out of the forest." This also ties into Kenny and Uri's unlikely friendship in episode 47 (which was referenced in a flashback during Willy Tybur's "declaration of war" speech in episode 64). Uri humbled himself before an Ackermann and acknowledged and apologized for the Reiss family's misdeeds. This had a profound effect on Kenny, and the two became friends, ending 100 years of persecution. Uri called it a miracle. He said to Kenny, "You believe in violence, do you not? It's the unavoidable truth of our world. Though... when were were at each other's throats, what was it that made us friends? Was it violence?" In the end, Uri said he still believed in the miracle of that day, when he, a king, bowed before his enemy in apology and ended at least one vicious cycle. So, yeah. I don't blame anyone who feels uncomfortable with some of AoT's imagery and messaging. But I think Mr. Braus's speech and the Kenny/Uri friendship show that the series isn't saying "past atrocities aren't our problem, we didn't do it, so don't blame us," nor is it saying "violence and militaristic retaliation are 100% the way to go." Last edited by Tenbinzan on Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tenbinzan
Posts: 60 |
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The AoT fan wiki has separate entries for the anime and manga, so anime-onlys should be able to check things out without being spoiled. For example, here's the link to Eren's anime article, which is up-to-date with the latest episode: https://attackontitan.fandom.com/wiki/Eren_Jaeger_(Anime) And here's his manga article, which has spoilers through the end of the series: https://attackontitan.fandom.com/wiki/Eren_Yeager You can check out the AoT wiki's main page and drop-down menu for more info (the character menu/featured articles/etc. all seem to default to the anime, and you have to click to switch to the manga entries).
Yep. The biggest hint was Kruger's "save Mikasa and Armin" speech to Grisha in episode 58 (referencing Grisha's words to Eren in episode 9). But there were other hints, like Eren having a vision of Frieda brushing her hair in episode 42, where she seems to become aware of his presence watching her through time. And Eren waking up in the Reiss family cave in the same episode, thinking to himself, "Haven't I been here before...?" (That last one could've just been Grisha's memory, but it's also possible that it was Eren's...) Of course, time shenanigans have been A Thing since the beginning of the series.  In episode 1, Eren dreams of future events, like his mother getting eaten by the Smiling Titan and Hannes dying in season 2 (see the blood spattering the purple flowers). In the manga version, Eren dreams of a short-haired Mikasa saying, "See you later, Eren," long before she cuts her hair in the Survey Corp. You can watch the combined anime/manga dream from episode/chapter 1 here (spoiler-free): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDF_69m1SIM
This makes me wonder: Who was quoting who, with the whole "even if you die, even after you die" speech to Grisha? Was Eren quoting Kruger to motivate/manipulate his father, or was Kruger quoting Eren via a "future memory" when he said those words to Grisha on the wall?  What about Eren chanting "fight, fight, fight" to himself in the mirror in episode 68/69? Was he just quoting his child self from episode 6, or was that Eren sending a memory back to his child self to help awaken Mikasa's powers, ensuring her survival? How far down the rabbit hole does this go? How many events has Eren influenced since the beginning...?
Last edited by Tenbinzan on Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Everlasting Coconut
 Posts: 314 |
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Episode 80:
Well, now that the episode is out, I'm bringing back these comments I made last week, but without spoiler tags:
In the end, I personally think Attack on Titan's heart is in the right place. It has proven this many times in the past already and it will continue to do so. Besides, I watch AoT (and most shows, really) for the characters, and I've grown fond of them over the years, so I can forgive the aforementioned tone-deafness when it comes to its themes (it's still worth criticizing though). |
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