Forum - View topicREVIEW: Koikimo
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 612 |
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Y'all, the Higehiro comparisons here are not even slightly valid.
The first episode of Higehiro got praise from multiple premiere guide reviewers, myself included, because it looked like it could be the opposite of an age-gap romance, where the main character realized the girl was a vulnerable, traumatized child and that he could not have a romantic relationship without some dangerous power dynamics at play. We also criticized it for camera work that seemed at odds with the story. In his episode reviews, James was highly critical of the show lingering on a potential romance between Sayu and Yoshida and gave the last couple episodes fairly low ratings. So no, it's not a simple comparison of "age gap romance for women" vs "age gap romance for men" and the latter getting more praise because misogyny I guess. |
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MagicPolly
 Posts: 1595 |
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But I don't see why what I said would change so much about it? She's aged up one year, and there's still the power imbalance because she would still be much younger than him (you could even age him up a year as well). Does her specifically being a high school student matter that much? |
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musouka
Posts: 711 |
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You literally said—and I quote—re: Koikimo: “It's Sickening to Call This Love is a josei series, meaning it's aimed at adult women, but I question just who would be able to laugh at this. In a way, I envy the people who can laugh at it, because it means they've never had a person make a dozen new accounts to get around their blocks. They've never ended a friendship because a man they thought they could trust turned out to have preyed on dozens of vulnerable younger people. It means they've never had their mother look into their eyes while talking about rock stars sleeping with teenage girls and say, “I could put so many people in jail.” It sounds nice.” Since you’re in this thread, would you like to address how you assumed fans of the show could never have dealt with sexual assault and how said assumption has nothing to do with misogyny when you made no similar assumption towards those that like Higehiro? |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 2964 Location: Email for assistance only |
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Caitlin was being vulnerable there and speaking about some very personal experiences that colored her perception of the show. She is not obligated to talk more deeply about it when you can simply say "I have experienced these things and still find these stories enjoyably/cathartic because they are a safe way to explore a romantic dynamic i enjoy. "
I've sat back all day and watched folks throw around accusations at Mercedez ("anti", "therapy session", too self-referential, misogynist) , and I am done. People can experience problematic media differently. For some, the elements of this show may too closely reflect personal negative experiences and watching it represented in an uncritical way will feel like it is maintaining a status quo that directly led to said negative experiences. For some people, this is not a fantasy, it is a candy-coated depiction of a traumatic experience. For others, yes, it's a fantasy of being an absolutely average girl/woman and being aggressively pursued by an attractive, wealthy guy who will ensure your life is glamorous and easy. That's josei romance 101. None of the critics in this conversation are ignorant of that. But we're not misogynist for strongly disliking it under very particular circumstances anymore than we're feminazis for pointing out issues in shows targeting men. We're accused of both whenever any criticism is leveled at either. You can go read Caitlin's review of Yakuza Lover for one such example of which there are MANY. |
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musouka
Posts: 711 |
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This will be my last post in this thread.
While I appreciate that Caitlin was expressing personal experiences that made the show unpleasant to watch for her, it is still inappropriate to use those experiences to A) make assumptions about a viewership she admits to knowing is mostly women and B) putting others in a situation where they have to disclose their own history of sexual assault and/or harassment to justify their enjoyment of a mediocre anime. The fact that you, as the head editor of ANN, are in this thread saying that this is the only proper response to her choice to bring up her upsetting issues in the review to judge others is frankly, IMO, irresponsible and unprofessional. EDIT: to correct the spelling of Caitlin’s name, my apologies for getting it wrong. EDIT 2: For the sake of clarity, I don’t have an issue with Mercedez’s review—except in so much as I think some of the criticism of the show seems to be too generalized about the show’s premise, but that’s pretty minor and I would call it a good, fair review of a middling IP overall. I’ve said my piece about everything else already. Last edited by musouka on Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 612 |
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This is a deflection and you know it. I do not give a flying eff if you like Koikimo, regardless of your experiences. Seriously! Saying what boils down to, "The realistic stalking behavior played off as cute and romantic makes it hard for me to imagine people with certain experiences enjoying it," is neither request nor invitation for people to disclose their own histories regardless of whether they like the show or not. Maybe I worded it in more absolute language than you would have liked; premiere reviews are written quickly based on first impressions, and Koikimo left a strong one, leading me to use similarly strong phrasing. If you cannot see why I and other writers would be harshly critical of that and yet cautiously optimistic that Higehiro is doing the opposite thing (and was sorely disappointed and frustrated that it didn't) then I don't know what to tell you. |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 2964 Location: Email for assistance only |
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Quote where I said they're was only one way to respond to anything. I literally said the opposite. If you want to keep arguing with bad faith and launching accusations, you're welcome to leave. |
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AniLady12792
Posts: 1 |
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I rarely participate in forums like this one, but in this case, I would like to express my opinion concerning this matter. Upon seeing BOTH ANIME AND MANGA from start to finish, KOIKIMO IS THUMBS UP for me based on these factors:
1) Character Development (Especially the MC "as individuals and as a couple") 2) Refreshing take on some aspects ( EX: conversations between Ryo & Masuda, plus Rio& Ichika, and how rivalries were presented). 2) How it stayed away from some "unnecessary drama" that were seen in some other shows. 3) How the age-gap topic and some challenges concerning that were presented, and how the author handled this concern (a controversial topic for some) in a good manner. 4) How scenes were surprisingly handled in a wholesome manner. 5) Romantic moments ( A love story doesn't always need to have lewd stuff in it.) 6) Opening and Ending Songs Yes, I am aware of Ryo's past, but seeing how he grew and positively changed (little by little) for the woman he truly loves is something others failed to see. His love and loyalty to Ichika are unquestionable and harshly judging him (or someone) because of his past, status, and age is unfair. He is not perfect, but he is moving forward. I do believe Ryo deserve a second chance just like Sayu from Higehiro and other characters who had a bad or rocky start in life. I agree that the show is lacking in terms of Comedy, but in terms of an "Age-Gap Romance"? I would say it's really good. I am considerate when it comes to shows that had mishaps due to the problems related to Covid Pandemic, so sure, I will let the issues about its music pass. Age-Gap relationships are present in history and in our society, whether we like it or not,. There are times when we need to be open minded and just make sure things are handled within legal or moral limits. I do believe that the MCs' resolve was logical and practical. As they said, they will grow together and take things step-by step (as a couple). Ryo sometimes does things over the top, but he is earnest yet careful. He stops when reprimanded, makes sure that Ichika does not seriously get hurt (Physically and Emotionally), and does not even think about forcing her sexually or whatsoever (That did not even cross his mind). I like what he said to his father about how devoted he is to wait, to take care of her, to protect her, and to do his best to be responsible for her sake. I prefer Koikimo over Higehiro, but I do not seriously compare them. For me, treating them as very different stories with different cases is the right thing to do. |
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JR-1
Posts: 70 Location: Southeast Asia |
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Even though I think the review isn't without its faults, comparing the reception of Koikimo and Higehiro in this site to discredit the reviewer is rather unfair (all too often people gotcha using different opinions in this site as if they're all one gestalt entity).
The "elements of the show may too closely personal negative experience" comment is interesting to me as an asian. I too often see my fellow asian fans disparaging "westerners" for criticizing problematic stuff as hypocrites when the problems (child abuse, domestic violence) are more apparent, at least more publicized, in the west. Perhaps it's precisely because it's more apparent that people are less tolerant of it in fiction. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16941 |
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It is sad, no doubt about it. Speaking in a general sense the problem is we've come to a place where lots of people simply can't handle criticisms of something they like. Any criticism is a personal attack on them the viewer. How dare that reviewer not share my own personal beliefs and thoughts on this show. Many just want an echo chamber and to be spoon fed the answers and opinions they want to hear (and already think). This is even more prevalent when it comes to anything T&A related, or ruins the male power fantasy. Yes this specific show is a Josei title, but take notice of what the gender is for the loudest complainers and people criticizing the reviewer. It's the same in most cases, here or elsewhere. Why is that? Because she dared to question the dynamic of a relationship in any fashion that has a grown male pursuing, and in a position of power over, a young female. It's not a coincidence. Time and time again those are the ones giving the loudest and rudest responses because someone dared to question their fantasy. People are always entitled to like whatever show, or manga, they want. People are welcomed to say why they like, or dislike, something. The problem is many cannot do so without the deflections, bad faith arguments, strawman arguments, and personal attacks/criticisms of the reviewer (or other detractors of the show) themselves. It's normally the same section of fans that use such tactics and make those kinds of posts. Speaking more specifically, in regards to that last point any further personal criticisms will be removed. Stick to debating the review, not the reviewer. |
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lhernan02
Posts: 196 |
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Sorry about that, I thought you were making a more settled argument on ending the imbalance. Reading it again and your reply, I think your solution is valid as far as eliminating some of the negativity against the show. Now I think the writer (and this is just my idea) used a high school girl to push the imbalance to 11. A high school girl is not expected to have any level of independence (lives with her parents while a college student may live outside the home) and less to offer (less life/social/sex experience, less arm-candy appeal (probably doesn't own a killer outfit to show off at a social gathering)), so the fact that she can ensnare somebody that can demand all that from a partner feeds into the fantasy. |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 2964 Location: Email for assistance only |
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Yeah, that's an insult. If you want to keep arguing about it, you can take it up into the Feedback section.
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Piglet the Grate
 Posts: 643 Location: North America |
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This is either what most people want or what studio executives think most people want and extends far beyond anime and Japanese culture - ever see a Hollywood show aimed at women where the main characters do not act this way? Sadly we have to sift though tremendous amounts of material to find the few good female protagonists who are not depicted as losers; Tohru Honda and Sawako (not Sadako) Kuronuma are the only two who come readily to my mind. Come to think of it, with the amount of vitriol a character such as Kosaki Onodera gets in English language comments, a lot of viewers do want the nasty and scheming to win.
Did I miss (or misinterpret) something (note that I only watched the anime and have not read the LN) since up through the next to last scene of the final episode Yoshida rejects all advances from Sayu that would take their relationship beyond that of surrogate older brother/younger sister? As for the final scene, the outcome of that is ambiguous*. *Note that I am firmly in the literary camp of "authorial intent" and believe "(figurative) death of the author" should be a personal matter and not something one reader/viewer tries to convinces others as being correct. |
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Kirki
Posts: 296 |
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Exactly how similar must two series need to be in order to be compared? Especially when they aired at the same time. Age gap rom-com for men, age gap rom-com for women. Is it really so preposterous and far-fetched to talk about the vast difference of reactions these two series received from the general audience? Especially when the one for men clearly and extremely sexualized it's underage female character? "People who watched Higehiro thought it was the opposite of an age gap romance" I'm sorry I don't buy that. If someone truly believed so without reservations, they were really going out of their way to refuse to acknowledge what was right in front of their eyes. So why would anyone give this one the benefit of the doubt so vehemently from the get go despite all evidence against that, but completely refuse to acknowledge any potential positive depictions in the other one? Why was one "positive until it proves itself negative" but the other "negative no matter what it does"? Yes it is something we must address. (again, I'm talking about the general reactions towards both series) It's not about "if you like the other you should like the other", Higehiro being bad wouldn't mean that Koikimo is good, it's the difference in their reception that it's alarming.
Other than that, the fact that someone does not agree with a review does not always consist a personal attack on the reviewer. "People can't handle critisism on the things they like so they attack those with different opinions". While I don't doubt that some people do so, other people should also learn how to handle critisism of their own opinions, especially if a review is based mainly on those and not so much on objective standards. Anyone has their own personal experiences, and a unique way to relate to the stuff they watch, but if you want to express those and only those, a personal blog is more suitable for doing so. All reviews naturally have a level of subjectivity, but the readers of a news site usually prefer a more dissassociated, rounded and objective take to decide whether they'll watch something or not, because we don't all share the same tastes. Seeing things strictly through personal lenses narrows your vision and can lead to interpreting some things wrong, which the readers will inevitably point out, just like it happened here. Chances are, when you are completely against the core idea of a work, you might not be the right person to talk about it to an audience that isn't here to hear your strictly personal take and experiences, because you will be biased from the get go and unable to see the possible positives clearly in order to give a more grounded take. |
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lossthief
ANN Reviewer
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Well for one, you're decidedly overstating how much benefit of the doubt Higehiro initially got - rereading the preview guide the general consensus was relief that the first episode wasn't as leering or uncomfortable as it could have been, and hope that the series would stick to its main character's promise to not treat Sayu as a love interest. But there was still a good amount of trepidation and "but this could all go south really fast" even in the early responses with no prior knowledge of the source material. That's far from "vehemently" defending it as far as I see it. As for why it got some benefit of the doubt where KoiKimo didn't? Because it explicitly starts out with the adult character rejecting the idea of a romantic or sexual relationship with the underage girl. Which is the exact opposite of Koikimo's first episode where the adult pursues his high school age love interest explicitly against her wishes. They got different initial responses because, even if they wound up in the same place by the end, they began at drastically different points with believably different future trajectories. That the reviewers couldn't predict the future is not hypocrisy. |
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