Forum - View topicSexism in Fate/stay night.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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If you want to be pedantic then fine, I propose a compromise; Fate/Stay Night is not sexist, however its male lead - Shiro - is sexist, at least in the beginning.
There, everyone should be happy. |
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Nom_Anor
 Posts: 246 |
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First note every spoiler tag below is for the visual novel. There will be many spoilers for the series which are not tagged.
On the contrary, I would say Fate Stay Night is actually a rejection of sexism, rather than endorsing it. The example frequently sited of Shirou acting sexistly in order to protect the female characters, one might notice, all take place in the earlier parts of the novel/series. This should be a warning sign right away--this is coming-of-age novel, and so the difference between the main character at the beginning of the novel and the end is one of the keys to the themes--anything exhibited by the protagonist at the beginning but not the end is hardly likely to be thematically suggested. To consider the defense of the female characters in specific, it would be good to note Shirou is regularly punished when he tries to protect them--spoiler[mauled by Berserker, loses an arm, or in a specific dead end, killed by Souichirou]. As is often repeated, "you cannot save everyone," and evidenced most clearly when he goes out on a limb to try and save his numerous secondary characters. Do note, however, this also happens to his many friends when they try and be heroes--Saber takes a Gae Bolg to the chest, or Tohsaka finds herself in Berserker's grasp. Even Archer finds himself dying alone. This suggests the actual theme--everyone needs a partner. In three books, only one character dies while working properly with her partner, and that is Caster, as seen in the series and spoiler[Unlimited Blade Works]. Only once, and even when Caster sacrifices herself, it ends as a redemption moment, rather than a tragedy. Even further, to finally defeat the enemies and win the day, the key in all three arcs is for two fitted individuals to properly cooperate--in Fate, both Saber and Shirou must acknowledge their respective roles in defeating Gilgamesh, and in UBW, spoiler[Rin and Shirou find themselves in much the same situation. ] Sure, I shall gladly admit, Shirou begins the series quite sexist. However, this does not make the series itself sexist: Shirou realizes his mistake. Similarly, every character is forced to find their proper place--perhaps Sakura's place is in the kitchen, but so is Shirou's. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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To think Saber is a "badass" only means more problems ensue. What you should have said was: Both Shirou and Saber (and the rest of the cast) are godamn morons. Problem solved. That statement, had it been written, I would have agreed with. The entire series is filled with selfishness and sexism simply can't exist (nor compete) with this. You can see sexism all you want but it's merely disguising selfishness. Wanting to be a hero, a better mage, power, or not to be alone. That's the gist of the selfishness by the masters. I'm betting that's a pretty solid reason why humans can't touch the grail. correction: Hercules was the best character in the series. No desires. He just served. And when he was defeated, his parting words were humble. It's a shame he couldn't take out everyone else while being removed from the competition. no spoilers as I assumed everyone had watched the show in order to address the specifics of the thread topic |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Nah, I've been wanting to talk about this for a while before you mentioned the show in the other thread.
Because idiots can't be sexist? I've got most of another post written, but I'm trying to get a copy of the last episode because I want to check that the line I think was said actually was said, as that's where I first conceived the idea that sexism underlay the story. |
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the Rancorous
 Posts: 2248 Location: Hunting the Dragon in Gransys |
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Ummm... I already addressed this particular issue... |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7989 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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So did I but oh well.
Overall, I can sum up this topic with a single image. 
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egoist
 Posts: 7762 |
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A yellow ball holding a hammer, and hammering something. I wonder what's that something. Perhaps some sort of factory? Is he fixing the factory? Or could he be trying to destroy it with the hammer? Perhaps it's not a factory, but a table turned upside down. All right, so he's fixing a table. Is this thread fixing a table too? If Shiro were gay, then this problem would have never existed. I just thought it was worth mentioning... Last edited by egoist on Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Justin Bailey
 Posts: 221 |
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It's a horse. As in, the arguments here are hammering on a dead horse.
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egoist
Posts: 7762 |
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I actually thought that the hair were shoes, but then I thought: "Why would a table need shoes?" But then I realized the [not yet known] head, and thought it could be a bench(beware kids, sitting right in front of a horse's tongue might prove to be a horrid experience). That was when I assumed that the yellow ball certainly was hammering the table to get it fixed. You, my dear sir, made me spill my chocolate milkshake. |
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Kruszer
Posts: 7989 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Yes, beating a dead horse, which is a euphemism for something ultimately futile and repetitious in which there is no point doing. A useless task. A tired old subject. Something that's run it's course and died. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yes I agree. Perhaps one of FSN's detractors would care to try making a new one. It's quite easy to sit there and straw man with the worst, most half baked post in the thread but I've yet to see any of you even attempt to tackle the key issue which is why you feel the series or even just Shiro is sexist in the first place. Yes, Shiro won't let Saber fight initially and tries to protect her. Can any of you back up your assumption that this is based on gender and not simply part of his overall hero complex though? |
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the Rancorous
Posts: 2248 Location: Hunting the Dragon in Gransys |
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Well I thought that those argument were made quite clear several times, but oh well. I'm now in agreement with Kruszer in that this is becoming futile, so I'm just going to opt out of this thread now. Call it "copping out" if you makes you feel better, but I just no longer care...
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Okay, I was probably being a bit unfair in your case. You've brought some interesting points to the table and I appreciate that. It's just that what you're saying seems to apply to a more frequent issue with entertainment in general. While it may be valid, it also applies to arguably the majority of stories. Most of which people would never think to criticize for sexism or at least not to the extent they do FSN. I wouldn't try to claim that FSN is some monument to breaking down gender stereotypes. It's not better than the vast majority of entertainment. It's just that it's no worse. Yet I always hear people taking cheap shots at it. Again though, I didn't mean to include you so much as I did others like Dorcas_Aurelia who I felt had yet to actually provide a solid reason for their belief.
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I don't know that I care if Shiro is sexist or not honestly. I'm sexist. I recognize that women are generally weaker physically. OMG. Flame me now. They also... tend to sometimes be emotionally frail. Do males? Yes, but in a different way and they tend to avoid showing it strongly. I'd give anecdotes about ... siblings (who wouldn't disagree with me) and all that, but I'd be "stereotyping" or something. I actually don't think stereotyping is all that bad, so I'll take that charge.
The whole problem here people are having with the series, if it truly is based primarily on their own perception of such strong sexism, is maybe that their own egos are hurt by this show. Um... if they are female I'd tend to say this may even go to prove that whole.. emotionally frail line. Man, I'm posting flame-bait. Some people have thin-skins if Fate/Stay night is this huge sexist show they can't stand. I'll be more sexist just so that you can hate me and get over it ok 
Do you get mad at any number of modern American comedies where the men are more often the butt of the joke? If you aren't getting pissed off at those for sexism it's probably a sign you just prefer sexism flipped. |
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Sophisticat
 Posts: 165 |
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I don't see why this is even a point of debate.
F/S-N is a VN harem eroge. Of course it's sexist, otherwise there would be no "plot", har har. It's also a Nasu work, not to mention a Japanese take on Western concepts. Shirou is an ultimately annoying lead who only "grows up" to fit JP conventions. It's not an issue whether or not he is sexist because it's a shallow work you should only watch for the Crowning Moments of Awesome, plot twists, and harem interactions if that's your thing. |
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