Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Magical Girl Raising Project
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23904 |
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@ TarTarkas - things might be very simple in your world, but given what we have seen of Ripple, I could imagine her character would feel bad about killing a 7-year-old child. The anime didn't reveal any of that, of course, but it's no huge stretch to imagine it. Most normal people would inherently understand that a 7-year-old child cannot be held responsible for his or her actions. Unlike you, Ripple can probably figure out that Swim Swim, as F'av himself said, had "a few screws loose" and was selected by F'av for that very reason. Ugh, it had been a relatively intelligent conversation up until this point.
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DRosencraft
Posts: 667 |
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As it pertains to Ripple killing Swim-Swim - under state law in New York, a five year old can be put on trial for negligence, their culpability a matter of fact for the jury to decide based on the facts of the case. And that is in full knowing that you're dealing with a 5-year-old. I say this because as a matter of real-world law, culpability for a crime is not cut and dry like many tend to assume. Saying "she's a kid, so she wouldn't really get in trouble" is wrong, and that doesn't even take into account the fact that you're talking about two individuals who likely can't even be judged under any legal system. In other words, even if you ignore the fact that Ripple had no idea Swim-Swim was actually a 7-year-old child, the two exist in an extra-judicial framework where they and others similarly situated are the only ones that can establish and enforce any rules or justice towards one another. Would she have gotten the death penalty if brought before a court? No, because most places have rules against execution of minors. But she'd probably have been labeled a sociopath and confined for life in a mental hospital - probably a lot better than dying.
You'd probably need an entire other season to delve into this aspect with any more depth than what they showed here in this season, though they touched on it lightly many times. At the same time, an infinite number of other works of fiction dealing with the supernatural have tried to tackle this matter, enough that it shouldn't be too hard to understand the mechanics of such a story line. The Watchmen series, even the Batman vs Superman movie are more recent examples. I think it's notable that popular opinion tends to frown on exploration of this scheme of things, despite their popularity in niche circles. Some curt message covering a third of an episode at best about Ripple having suffered from realizing she killed a little girl is worse than simply not addressing it and leaving that option open for an OVA, movie, or follow up season. Remember, Ripple wasn't the MC here. Yes, her role is central to the story, but her being interesting in a thematic sense doesn't automatically make her more important than the rest of the series, or the story being told about the actual MC. As for Snow, I think the series isn't getting as much credit as it deserves for being a mirror on the magical girl genre. From start right up through much of the last episode, Snow has represented the classical view of what a magical girl in anime is. She was cute, somewhat meek, and was all about happiness and friendship. She wanted to help people, and though not given the chance to fight "evil" was seemingly willing to. She then had to confront the evolution of the magical girl into fighters with magic. Magical girls were presented to her who were less about being cute and friendly, and more like typical shounen action heroes, but girls with magic instead of boys with "super powers" or "special talent for fighting" or any such thing. When she begins to doubt her own belief of what it means to be a magical girl, she meets the most outwardly frightening of the magical girls, Alice, who rather than being on the side of the fighters, is an admirer and supporter of the image of a magical girl Snow has. Confronted with this, she looked at the landscape, saw these other magical girls like Sister Nana, or Nemurin, who sill embody that past image, while there are the likes of Ruler and Cranberry who took delight in combat and the typical stuff you'd normally see magical girls fight against. Nevertheless, she never outright revokes their status as magical girls. She believes in what a magical girl is to the extent that she tries her best to accept that their is a mistake or a misunderstanding that has led to the problems they have. She dwells in lonely thought on the basic question of what it means to be a magical girl. I don't think it's reasonable or rational to think there was anything more she could do in the immediate circumstance. She wasn't a fighter, as that was anathema to her vision of magical girls. Caving to become like the rest, scheming how to kill other magical girls, would be abandoning her very vision of who she always wanted to be. She wasn't a forceful personality so it couldn't be expected that she'd engage everyone in some masterful dialogue and convince them of her way being right. After all, everyone was desperate too under the auspice that if they were eliminated from the game, they died in real life - whether they killed another magical girl, or came in last in the Candy collection. Snow didn't want to kill, so collecting Candies was her own means of staying alive, a fact which isn't focused on, purposely, I believe, to reflect the way in which Fav and Cranberry accurately managed to craft the rules of the game to reach the desired framework. She also saw how that worked for Sister Nana - trying to talk to the fighting factions and get them to sit and think about how to go through all this without killing each other. This experience in particular, I believe, broke her will, as we saw a lot less of Snow after this. The only other magical girls who had similar ideals to her own were dead, the one magical girl that both seemed powerful and to share her vision, Alice, died soon after - the entire framework supporting her vision of what a magical girl was, fell apart. The last pillar was the possibility that this wasn't how it had to be, how it could have been. Until this last episode where she finally heard from Fav how they were all manipulated into killing each other, she still had the fallback that the others were just magical girls in form, not spirit. They had powers of magical girls, but didn't know what it "really" meant to be magical girls. Fav started to chip at that pillar by his existence, suggesting that the powers that granted the ability to become a magical girl were themselves corrupt and foreign to her vision of magical girls. Even the creators of magical girls - again, a tap on that fourth wall - no longer believe in her classic vision of magical girls. The last few minutes of the last episode, that flash forward, is merely a teaser enticing continued attention to the series itself and where it can go. Ripple appears as a grizzled war vet, skeptical of the "cause" and dispassionate about the endeavor, but unable to extricate herself from it. She is the compatriot and tutor to another who has survived the same battlefield. Meanwhile, Snow is a hardened soldier o another tour of duty. She hasn't lost her idealism, but it's been tempered by the atrocities she's seen, and she has had to compromise her beliefs in order to continue surviving and in an ironic fashion ensure the survival of her ideal. It's a conclusion that she could only have reached after experiencing everything she did, because only other magical girls could share that lesson with her, and there were no magical girls before her to share that tale. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5887 Location: Virginia, United States |
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But it is business as usual, several ‘just’ children have already been murdered. War is hell, and this show is a battlefield. Swim Swim ceased being just a child a long time ago. Swim Swim was an evil Magical Girl, and she needed a Magical Girl to put her down. Ripple didn’t get to see the things that you saw in the show, she only saw her friend, the pregnant mother, get stabbed to death in the back by Swim Swim. The only justice for that act, had to come from a Magical Girl. No justice or law was going to come from Fav, our murderous authority figure. I can’t comment to you wanting something of substance or a message in the finale, but Ripple had nothing to angst over in the killing of Swim Swim.
Yes, I don’t think Ripple would take any delight in the killing of Swim Swim, and yes, once she realized just how young Swim Swim was, she would probably be sad for a bit. But it wouldn’t be something to angst over. She got justice for her friend, Top Speed, the only justice you can get in this Magical Girl world. When Swim Swim became a Magical Girl, real world laws ceased applying to her. The only rules and laws that applied came from Fav, and probably the absent system administrators. Swim Swim is no longer just a child. And yes, we differ on real world views. Whether child or not, everyone is responsible for their actions to some degree. No one in the real world should get a free pass to murder others, no matter their age. @DRosencraft Thanks for the comments about Snow White. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23904 |
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Nobody is suggesting that anybody should get a "free pass" for murdering someone else, regardless of age. Age, however - for most normal people - would be considered a mitigating factor. Especially an incredibly young age. To treat it like it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever I find conceptually abhorrent.
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NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2356 |
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War also induces all manner of neuroses in its combatants (e.g. PTSD). It is neither normal nor believable for a person to commit atrocities in war and not feel something about having done so. Whether that something is self-disgust, sadistic elation, a numb refusal to feel, etc etc - I don't really care what emotion or reaction is picked, so long as its portrayal is handled evocatively. I'd just like to see the event acknowledged as psychologically significant.
I don't understand why you think this line of argument is relevant to my point. You're very focused on defending and justifying Ripple's decision to kill Swim Swim and on arguing that Swim Swim was an inhuman monster, but my complaint's unrelated to whether Ripple's decision was right or wrong, and is unrelated to whether Swim Swim should be dehumanized or not. I've been extremely clear about this and have repeated it in a number of replies now; I'm not really sure how to say it more clearly. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23904 |
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@ NeverConvex - in fairness to TarsTarkas, I don't believe he was attempting to address your point. He and I have been having an ongoing debate for a while now on the topic of Swim Swim's "evilness" and I think that's what he is concentrating on.
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2356 |
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That could well be. Odd placement, if so, since it was written in apparent reply to a quote from my last post, but if all of the stuff about Swim Swim being inhuman / evil / etc wasn't directed my way that'd make a lot more sense.
I'm not entirely sure that's what is going on, though. It seems like maybe Tars feels the two issues are connected - that, because he views Swim Swim as an inhuman evil, that slaughtering her shouldn't evoke any emotion from her killer. That just reeks of bad writing to me, though; these are everyday girls thrust into an emotionally charged, gruesome situation. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to treat killing someone (especially a very young child) as the emotional equivalent of taking out the trash, regardless of whether it was justified. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5887 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I can consider it a mitigating factor too, but for capital crimes, I sway more to their victims than the criminal.
Not saying there wouldn't be any emotion, just that there wouldn't be any angst. Do the victims of serious crimes and their significant others care about the criminals age, feelings, or their backstory. Believe it is the last thing on their mind, if at all. Ripple is not in the audience, she is on the receiving end. Last edited by TarsTarkas on Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23904 |
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@ NeverConvex - it's a pity you didn't contribute to the MGRP discussion thread in the Anime Series forum. I clearly enjoyed the show far more than you did and am more forgiving of its lapses, but you would have brought some intelligent, substantive points to the mix. If there is another season, please consider participating in its attendant discussion thread (not just the thread for the episode reviews).
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2356 |
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Victims of crimes pushing for punishment in modern society have the emotional distance allowed them by a system that doles out punishment in their stead. You don't have to literally pull the trigger to seek vengeance; you just push to have someone else do so. Vicarious killing is a much colder, easier affair than killing someone with your own two hands (or your own katana, in Ripple's case).
Thanks! I'd probably have enjoyed that. I never really venture out of the Talkback forums on ANN, but maybe in the future I'll try to check out the Anime Series forum for threads on shows I'm actively watching. |
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GoldenPincers
 Posts: 65 |
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MGRP was a quite entertaining series, despite its big frequency of deaths à la Akame ga Kill.
It delivered on what it was supposed to, and I'm satisfied with the ending. @DRosencraft : I highly agree with pretty much everything you said about Snow White. It was the point of her character to be passive, due to her vision of magical girls. Besides, it's not like Madoka was very active until the final episode either, yet few people complain there. And I agree with what @TarsTarkas said about the whole justice thing between Ripple and Swim Swim. I will definitely buy the LNs when they start coming out in June 2017, since I'm very interested in how the series can evolve. |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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This is incorrect (at least in the USA). In America, when you commit a crime (especially a capital crime), the criminal offense is brought by the State, not by the individual. This is because the crime is a crime against *society*, and thus the representative of society, the State, prosecutes those responsible. Part of the reason for this is that it is believed that the aggrieved party would be unable to be objective in determining guilt or assigning justice in the sentence. Thus, a third party takes on the role of judge and non-involved peers take on the role of jury. I agree that the issue of "what to do about Swim-Swim" is different than "how I feel about what I did to Swim-Swim". Swim-Swim was a monster and had to die, and only a Magic Girl could do that. Ripple didn't have the option of turning to anyone else even if she were inclined to do so. Also, Ripple had to lose an eye and an arm in order to put down Swim-Swim, and at that point had no idea that Swim-Swim was a child (well, a child somewhat younger than she was herself). Basically, I think that Ripple did what was necessary in regards to Swim-Swim. However, there is also the matter of how Ripple felt *after* dealing with Swim-Swim. Regardless of how necessary the task may have been, or even what she lost to do it, how she felt afterwards isn't really attached to any of that. Once you are no longer fighting for your life and you can think about things with a clear mind... well, realizing that you killed a seven-year old is probably going to be a bitter pill to swallow. Even if you felt entirely justified, or that it was necessary, there's likely to be some level of guilt involved because Ripple, unlike Swim-Swim, does not lack compassion. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5887 Location: Virginia, United States |
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@NeverConvex
Ripple is not Snow White. Her backstory clearly showed she knew how to take care of herself, even when dealing with adults. Ripple saw Swim Swim as a murderous, backstabbing, evil killer. That and a strong personality is all you need to do what has to be done (and it doesn't hurt that Swim Swim wouldn't have hesitated a sec in killing her) Ripple didn't need to break down and cry at the waste of it all, Ripple didn't need to scream at the heavens in anger, nor did she have to shed a tear for Swim Swim. That is not to say she can't be sad about it in her own private thoughts and reflections. Her thoughts are probably that she did justice for Top Speed. Yeah, it won't bring back Top Speed, but Swim Swim can't hurt anybody anymore. If we were talking about Snow White, you might be right, depending on the writing. But sometimes events push people beyond their limits, and at the end of things they are no longer who they were. |
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2356 |
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I don't think you have a very realistic view of what killing does to a person, particularly to a psychologically normal-ish young person, Tars; war is not a pretty thing, and it's very strange for MGRP to treat the slaughter it creates, particularly in its climax, as anything other than emotionally dominating. I also think the narrative led us to expect some focus on the psychological fallout of that particular scene, both by placing it as the central focus of the finale and by having Snow White make her tortured appeal to Ripple before it; it seems badly inconsistent for the direction and characters to then brush past it rather quickly.
But we seem to be at something of an impasse. I doubt anything further I can say will make a dent, I've not found any of your arguments very persuasive, and I think I've made my argument as well as is necessary. Good chatting with you, anyway. I'll be leaving our conversation where it is now, unless some particularly novel ideas are raised about it. |
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Junko666
Posts: 35 |
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@Tuor_of_Gondolin: You can't really apply USA laws in this instance, since MGRP is based in Japan, who have quite a different view on Criminal Responsibility. As for starters the age of criminal responsibility in Japan is 14 years old and in very extreme cases 11 years old. Swim Swim being the age of only 7, would get away scot-free on the killings she has committed in this game and the responsibility of her actions would be placed entirely upon the adults who had brought her up.
Also for other users that have said "Swim Swim had to be killed", that again is incorrect. Ripple could have gone with the alternate of using the flash-bang to knock her unconscious and then tie her up and confiscate her magical phone, destroy Fa'v and then the Land of Magic (LoM) would come in and take care of the rest, most likely erasing Swim Swim's memoires of being a Magical Girl and going back to her normal daily life. Whilst its understandable that Ripple is enraged that her mentor figure Top Speed was stabbed in the back in front of her eyes, it still doesn't excuse her of continuing the death game in order to murder a 7 year old little girl and if this was reality, she would be serving at least a 10 year prison sentence. |
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