Forum - View topicNEWS: ADV Head Says UK Issues May Be Due to Illegal Releases
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
|
|||||||||||
|
I like how everyone just ignored Keonyn's comments. ^^;
-Tofu |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
|
|||||||||||
|
Tofusensei wrote:
As a thread winds down, you'll unfortunately find at the end it's usually left with arguments that can't advance the ball past the 'your bad-no, your bad!' stage, or like the last page or two folks who feel the burning desire to register so they can offer the same handful of ill-conceived talking points that have been written countless times. On what you were arguing re:translation skill, as someone whose (decently) fluent in Japanese I'll agree that I've seen a handful of fansub translators who do a very good job, and conversely I've seen 'official' subtitle translations that have been of mediocre quality (in fairness, I usually watch either the dub or Japanese language track, so I may not see the breadth of subtitles others have). However, I will go back to a point I made earlier, being the entire 'Better Subtitles?' issue is a bit overblown in the big picture. The implication (though I don't think it was yours) is often that supposedly 'poor' official subtitles is a defensive reason as to why certain people only watch fansubs, and that's obviously vastly understating the 'fast and free' issue. If all R1 releases had markedly superior subtitles while all fansubs had markedly inferior ones, fansub viewership would still be where it is now, 'fast and free' is the drawing card. For actual fansub 'subbers', they obviously stress the issue of translation, because it's a pride factor on how they 'compete/differentiate' with each other, again leading to the topic taking on more 'importance' then it really has overall. Again, I'll agree that some amateur translators do a great job, it's just that I find 'quality subtitles' to be a very, very minor 'technical' point/issue in the big picture of fansubs popularity/impact. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||||||||||
Yes. Around '03/'04 downloaders defended themselves with "The fansubbers code" that groups stopped subbing when a title was licensed & took down all copies of exisiting subs. I still see people downloading Bleach & Naruto. Both have been licensed for awhile. Had groups stopped subbing Bleach, we'd just about be caught up now, wouldn't we? I saw someone bragging about finishing Death Note a couple weeks ago. Saw the first eps on CN, couldn't wait & downloaded the rest. Had the fansub site followed the code, that fan would have had to but the Viz dvds/downloads or watch it on CN with the rest of us. I saw people at a couple sites say more groups actually started subbing DN after Viz announced it.. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Dante80
 Posts: 218 Location: Athens Greece |
|
|||||||||||
Yes, that is a (rather pessimistic) scenario that nevertheless can happen. But again, IT WILL BE THE INDUSTRYs FAULT. You cannot stop fansubs, you cannot stop piracy. What you can do, is to add more value to the product and give the fan what he wants to support the industry. We are talking about the R2 UK industry here. Yes, piracy and online illegal distribution have hurt the industry at some extent. But consider this. Why should an anime fan buy R2 media that are worse than R1 in price, quality, variety and time of release? We are consumers here. And I believe most people in the UK (and the EU) actually support the R1 industry more, and for a reason. At least, I do. Now, about a solution to the problem. I'm going to quote (because I agree completely) sth said by a known fansubber (Mentar) about the direction the industry SHOULD go for monetizing fans they lose from fansubs.
And another quote that I agree with.
The industry can adapt. Whether it will or not though, is another matter altogether. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Randompeon
Posts: 18 Location: Scotland |
|
|||||||||||
|
Here is a question for all the anti-fansub haters:
Which is the real problem? people who watch fansubs then buy the DVD's when they are released in the local market or the people who get sick of the wait and import them from somewhere else? That is one thing most of these posters seem to have missed entirely due to going straight to the "fansubbers are evil" scapegoat plea For the people who import, i can understand why since it's around 5 years since FLCL was originally released in japan yet the UK release isn't even out yet, if they did more timely releases for the shows in the UK it wouldn't be as bad. Final question: How many people who import will buy a copy from the local market after they import from anywhere else? Last edited by Randompeon on Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
|
|||||||||||
Tofu I don't think they are out to hurt the industry. If anything, their contributions show a weak point in the industries distriubtuon. Of course those in the industry don't seem to notice, don't care to notice, or want to past the buck as such with leford's comments. Things change. I'm on One Piece episode 340ish. I'd rather not wait the *insert time here* its going to take to get that far. I hate double dipping, but i'd be willing to do so if the indutry provided subs of future episodes for a fee. But hey. Instead of wasting his breath to utter unproven statements, he could have been trying to talk to the japanese to work out some sort of deal. I think: Japan wants the R1 industry to fail. Oh but they don't? Apparently they do with their lack of trying to find a soltuion. Sitting back and saying: "hey don't do that!" isn't going to solve anything. They've got a whole new ventrue at their fingertips. What will it take to make them catch a clue? Wave money in their face? $35 for 6-7 episodes is a whole heck of a lot better than $35 for 2-3. We'd be caught up, but people don't like to wait. I'm glad you have the patience of a God, but others don't. I'll buy their dvds as they come out (or in boxset form), but I refuse to wait in actually watching episodes. If the DN fan had chosen to wait then he still would have watched the show without paying for it. It wouldn't grauntee the dvds would have been sold to him. How would he have been forced into buying the dvds? If Viz decided to stop airing DN before spoiler[before they go to america, which is the second hald of the show] That doesn't mean people are going to run out and pick up the dvds. Most would probably just read the ending online or pick of the manga. I don't understand how his watching the show before it finished on tv changed anything. He sitll pays cable fees. Or...do people who watch by tv only somehow don't equate to the defintion of "anime fan" since they don't purchase dvds. One hot Alchemist- Seeing as how you get 80+ hours of entertainment from a game (i'll just use KH 2 Remix) I wouldn't mind importing one. A dvd isn't going to give me that much bang for my buck. Who wants to watch 2 hours and five minutes of episodes 40 times? Not I. Not even over the course of a lifetime. [/spoiler] |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
|
|||||||||||
That's not the question at all. Neither of those people are problematic. Watching fansubs and buying DVDs is fine. Importing legit copies is also fine. In both of those situations, you're supporting the industry that makes the shows you want. You've managed to completely miss the point and it's also pretty obvious you have some kind of persecution complex going on by characterizing everyone who speaks out against fansubs as "haters", as though their viewpoint is illegitimate and born entirely from a shallow desire to hate on a totally innocent practice. I'm really getting sick and tired of all the loaded language and goalpost-changing this debate seems to focus on. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Randompeon
Posts: 18 Location: Scotland |
|
|||||||||||
I personally didn't mean my comment in that context, i honestly believe everyone has a right to thier own opinions, however ADV are blaming fansubs for low sales, which i don't believe is true since most if not all of my purchases are after i watched a fansub and found the show to be worth buying, i did also ask how many importers actually buy from the UK market aswell, if that is lower then that would effect the UK market with low sales, since those sales go into the US market rather than the UK market. Then you have the rather small catalogue of UK releases and the duration of time before released, that doesn't help the UK market, since most won't want to wait for the UK release and would rather import. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
geowrian
Posts: 15 |
|
|||||||||||
Sorry, but that is completely illogical. The UK industry is having problems. Piracy plays a role in declining sales (to what extend is highly debated). Therefore, piracy is to blame for the decline of the industry? That's very bad logic...it may play a role, but there is no proof provided thus far that it's even a major cause of the problem ADV is having. Blaming piracy without any sort of empirical evidence to back it up is just scapegoating the real issues. Personally, I can guarantee that I have never hurt the industry yet I watch fansubs all the time (due to various reasons). If I was forced to pay to watch it, I wouldn't watch it since there are plenty more things for me to waste my time on....it's just recreation/entertainment! I know 100% that the companies are making more on me via accessories, related material, and ads than they would if I didn't watch fansubs. Not everybody does this, but it works without harming the makers or industry. However, according to ADV, I am somehow hurting them. It doesn't make sense how I would be hurting them since they would be getting $0 from me if fansubs didn't exist, but they can think whatever they want.
Agreed...I don't want to see the industry fail, but any industry that cannot adapt to change will fail. Basic economics. They just have to find different business models that deal with these issues better. If they don't want to take risks or the Japanese companies won't let them, then they will fail. That's not what I want, but what's the alternative? Spend money to keep the business afloat with a business model that isn't working? That's very bad economics. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
|
|||||||||||
1) UK R2 releases aren't generally lower quality than R1 releases given that very few people in the UK have access to NTSC equipment and a PAL DVD looks a hell of a lot better than an NTSC DVD when played through PAL equipment regardless of whether the picture quality is quite as good as it could be. 2) UK R2 releases have always been a bit more expensive than US releases for the simple reason that all DVDs (and CDs, and games, and books) tend to be more expensive in the UK than in the US. If the difference is greater now it's only because the dollar has collapsed in value and the pound hasn't - and there's nothing the UK anime industry can do about currency values. Relative to the different costs-of-living in the two countries in question though, the cost is roughly equivalent. 3) There is less variety (naturally, it's a smaller market) - hence people importing the R1 titles that don't make it over here. But that doesn't help to explain why less people are buying the titles that are released here in recent years. After all, the UK getting fewer titles is not a new recent occurence. 4) UK releases tend to take longer than the US releases but it's not always the case (for example, we had Paprika months before the US did). And if you've managed to wait 18 months for something to come out in the US, what does it cost you to wait another 6 for it to come out in the UK? Anime doesn't have a Best Before Date - if it was a good show when it came out it'll still be a good show a couple of years later. What's the rush? And, again, this is not a new thing but the sharp decline in sales is. 5) The only new factor to hit the UK market in the past five years or so is the huge increase in downloading. Any other problems already did their damage long ago. 6) What do you mean by "we are consumers here"? As far as I can tell from your previous statements, you're a Greek who downloads or imports from the US. The UK market doesn't impact upon you in the slightest.
Wouldn't an anti-fansub hater be somebody who hates people who hate fansubs...? 
|
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
|
|||||||||||
|
Now, me being the nice trusting guy I am and not a British man born and bred...(i.e cynical beyond reason)...I will assume EVERYONE here supports the industry 100% making you all paragons of virtue in a fansub heavy world. Aren't I nice? So don't feel hurt or personally attacked here...
So, you don't need to tell me or others that 'I buy everything I download, I only bought series X because of a download, fansubs made me ito the prolific spender I am now, etc etc'. Consider the trackers, from [this is a bittorrent website]. 196017483 completed transfers, assuming each of those is 1 episode (yes yes, some will be promos, some will be movies, some will be OAvs, etc etc) and there are ≈4 episodes a DVD that should be ≈49004371 DVD's. Now each of those is sold at ≈£20 ≈£980087425 just from those who DL from [this is a bittorrent website]! One of dozens of sites people will visit. There are what...5 major companies doing anime in English? they each get ≈£196017485 just from the users of [this is a bittorrent website]! Let's again say that aniem has been going strong for ≈20 years...that's £9800874 per year for each of the major 5 companies, we'll say each company has ≈100 staff at £25,000 a year and we will halve their yearly income for unknown costs, ((£9800874/2)-(25000x100)) = £2400437 per year in 'spare' cash. But then...do we seriously believe that the, non-staff, expenses per year are really in the region of fifty million pounds? We'll assume they are for the moment. This gives the anime companies a 'profit' (as we covered ALL expenses by paying out that fifty million) of ≈£2.4M per year... Wow, the anime business must be massively more profitable than I thought! Look at those one hundred and ninety six million people who ALL BUY EVERYTHING THEY DOWNLOAD. I'm no expert on anime DL culture so I will guess maybe 10 sites with similar users bases. Multiply those numbers by 10 then for arguments sake. Now there are OBVIOUSLY massive flaws in this 'analysis' as in...the assumptions made, such as that every show on [this is a bittorrent website] is also made available for purchase and so on. With numbers like this it seems difficult to comprehend how the business could be in such continually dire straights. Unless that is of course, excluding the paragons on this site, the MAJORITY of anime 'fans' who DL everything they watch in a 'try before I buy' sort of thing don't actually buy what the 'try' at all...even after 'trying' every single episode of it. If the MAJORITY are incapable of responsibly making use of the 'service' being offered then the 'service' needs to be either withdrawn or its execution needs to be re-thought. I'm sure you can all find [this is a bittorrent website] and you can all do the simple maths involved to see for yourself. If you have more info to share, such as numbers from other sites then feel free to share them. If you want to argue with my 'conclusions' based on my rather unscientific research then...go ahead...this is completely unscientific and I am merely using it to support an argument...of course I am biased and of course I will make biased assumptions and even act to ignore data I dislike...such is the nature of human kind. But then...evidence, even biased evidence which others can look at and pick holes at, is better than your useless opinion. Fansubs don't hurt the industry? The God damn show me that they don't, don't tell me, F*ck*ng show me what you are using to make that assumption, even if it turns out to be utter crap you will at least have tried to support your argument and hell if what your assumptions are based on proves to be wrong or right you may be influenced or influence others. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
tygerchickchibi
 Posts: 1465 |
|
|||||||||||
I'm just wondering how Japan does their licensing of American cartoons. ex) Powerpuff Girls. Maybe it may be different considering there is a Cartoon Network in Japan... >.>; I'm just going to have to research that, it's pretty hard to find. I don't like to be called a fansub hater. I don't "hate" fansubs. I think the last fansub I've actually watched was "Peach Girl," in which way I was surprised that it was licensed. There still is a show I'm waiting to see if it will be licensed or not. I'll be waiting for Genshiken 2 and there was this other one... Anyway, I don't know how people are saying that the industry is "not" trying to do anything. Though I agree that Japan needs to make things work at their advantage, I believe they are working on something while people on this forum go at each other's throats on determining blah blah whose to blame. I can see other ways to determine if you like a series without having to watch a full series. I just want to know which anime do groups fansub and why? Is it only just because of how popular it is in Japan? That, I haven't really heard yet. If it was proven that fansubs are to blame for a big decline, would anyone really believe it? A lot of you still won't be convinced and accuse the industry of being liars. If it was proven that fansubs are not to blame, then I'm pretty sure that fans would be happy to hear that, and continue to do their business, perhaps the people who aren't so fansub friendly may just continue to be patient until either the anime gets licensed or they get the japan release, or some other legit release. As far as arguments go, I don't really know what they would argue about. My blame on fansubs is that it's so much easier to make digital copies and sell them as "imports." Fansubs aren't as good as of use as it was back then. It can get easily abused as anything else. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Randompeon
Posts: 18 Location: Scotland |
|
|||||||||||
Yes i should have worded that statement better. there isn't just one thing that effects the UK market, however the ADV CEO focuses only on fansubs, had he said it was due to importers or another issue then a completely different group of people would pop up to defend themselves, saying that fansubs is the only issue is shortsighted and quite ignorant, yes alot of people watch only fansubs without buying DVD's but as a previous post stated, even if fansubs didn't exist they still wouldn't buy the DVD's so they were never gonna be a potential sale anyway. (i'm not attacking anyone with this next comment) Importers who only buy from other markets and not UK market don't help either since those are lost sales. (again not attacking anyone) I doubt those who import would buy the R2 release after buying it on import, then you have shows which never get released over here or even licenced, one never released here end up as import sales and ones never licenced aren't even a loss. After looking through most of the shows that ADV have licenced i wouldn't watch around 75-80% of them due to not liking them in my own preference, however there is shows which i did like and only way i will ever see them is through watching fansubs because noone seems to want to licence said shows, i'll give one example of this: (licence isn't owned by ADV but same principle) Strawberry panic licenced, inukami isn't. I didn't like strawberry panic at all (there is something about lesbian schoolgirls that just isn't right), but i enjoyed inukami because it had a decent story and great comedy, that's one example, i'm sure i could find more if i really wanted to. I never have or ever will have intentions of being abusive towards opinions of others, i'll leave that to the e-thugs. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||||||||||
People wait all the time for stuff. Just because you know they're available, it makes it impossible to wait? How long did people wait for all of Harry Potter? No one died from the wait itself. They either waited patiently or they abandond the series. Yes, we were stuck with a rotten dub, but again, had they followed the fansubber's code we were around ep 150 or so when 4Kids licensed One Piece. A lot less catching up, right? Plus there's a whole lot of "rather not"'s in this world, aren't there? I'd rather not workn & be rich, but hea-reality is I work to have a roof over my head, etc. I'm sure the people on that film Heath Ledger was filming in England would rather not he'd died, bit they have no control over that either.
Arrogant? Japan had their system in place that worked just fine of $60 for 2 eps. We're used to much cheaper in the West so if they announce the minute a title starts airing in Japan Viz iz going to release it in America at half the price the Japanese dvd manufacturers are selling it, what's to stop Japanese fans from reverse importing it for much less? So to satisfy Western tastes for cheap entertainment, you expect an entire country to change what works for them/ This IS their entertainment, nit yours. You just happen to enjoy it. You've developed a taste for it. Head over to any comic book shop or the G4 boards & you can probably find someone who will tell you just how crappy anime & manga is compared to western (superior) stuff.
I'm sure there's stuff you wait for all the time. Movies come out on a certain schedule. This year's tv season was royally messed up due to the writer's strike.
There's something they monitor tv viewing you may have heard of. It's called RATINGS. He downloads instead of watching on CN, CN doens't get the ratings credit, do they? Then Adult Swim takes off more anime & puts on that inane, annoying "humor" that's as funny as a root canal. I read the fricken manga as it was being released. I waited-what 2-3 months between books. Took what-2 yrs? I can't even remember when I started Dragon Knights & it's still not finished & it's something like a year between volumes now. Excel Saga's been 9 months to a year between volumes for a few yrs also. We waited 2-3 yrs for the latest INVU, the last Real Bout High School took awhile-same for Planet Ladder. While I don't read Japanese, I do subscribe to Asuka(Kyo Kara Maoh), Zero Sum (Loveless, Saiyuki Reload, BeXBoy (Sex Pistols), Chara & Chara Selection (Wild Adaptor, Crimson Spell), BeXBoy Gold (Kizuna, Embracing Love) & Gush at an exchange rate of 100 yen=$1.60 since that happens to be the shop's exchange rate. Fact remains if downloading were somehow eliminated he reads the manga (tho there is that set of anime fans who are allergic to reading. Seen a lot of them post different places) which pays the manga licensee, watches it on CN giving them ratings & channels back to the anime licensee, or he buys or rents/borrows the dvds which pays the anime licensee.
Paranoid? Chip on your choulder? I didn't say that, did I?
It depends on what gets you thru the nite, doesn't it? I can & do re-watch anime dvds. My daughter shows them to friends when they come over-she got her BF interested in Death Note by taking the dvdss over to his place & watching them with him & she gave hims half the manga for Christmas, but since she's got him to stop downloading anime, he doesn't want to read past what's airing (Although Vol 6 isn't going to get him that far ahead of what's airing So she's made a fan of a show out of someone who states he's not really an anime fan-more of a gamer. (yeah, he downloads games because he doesn't want to spend the money. At least she's gotten him to stop some of his downloading. She might get him to stop more in the future. She won't watch domestic stuff he's downloaded-she makes him take her to the movies.) |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
geowrian
Posts: 15 |
|
|||||||||||
While I won't criticize your analysis or in any other way try to dismiss what you are saying, I would like to note one very important thing... Nobody is claiming that all videos made available by fansubbers are later purchased. Sometimes it's not possible (those episodes are not available in the current region, poorly done dub, *insert reason here*). However, that number says nothing about lost sales. The root of this article is about how much did the industry claims to lose due to fansubbing and other pirating. However, ADV says nothing about how much they actually lose due to those factors. For example, 1 million downloads of fansubbed Naruto Shippuuden equal how many lost DVD sales? Nobody has any clue that van be verified, but ADV is claiming they are loosing a *significant* number of sales because of fansubs. That just doesn't hold water as there is no evidence to back that up. On another note... If all fansubs stopped right now and piracy of anime was suddenly stopped completely, how would the industry be doing right now? Personally, I believe it *may* be a little better short-term, but still declining. Their business model just isn't sustainable as-is, and they have, thus far, refused to adapt. Fansubbing may or may not be making it worse, but it just doesn't make sense to blame the failure of the industry on fansubs. As posted before, anime companies can compete in the current marketplace and have a sustainable business model, but they are not choosing to go that path. It's not a matter of "nothing beats free"...people do pay for something if it has a greater value. So far, reputable fansub sites are, in my opinion, coming out with releases that are at least as good as the domestic releases. For instance, how much would it cost them (and how long would it take) to just translate an episode and make it available on a digital download service? I believe this would make the VAST majority of anime viewers very happy and put the e-brake on fansubbing. It won't stop fansubbing completely, but it would pretty much end this whole debate. Fans are happier, sales go up, etc. I know that's an ideal situation, but it's a completely untapped market unless you count fansubs. All it takes is for somebody to take the risk. Yes, they can compete with free... |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group