Forum - View topicGAME: Dragon's Crown
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Guile
Posts: 595 |
|
|||||
Actually objectifying yourself by cosplaying is a fairly large thing to write off as glossing over, especially when it is the main issue at focus in these topics. It'd be a bit hypocritical, at the very least.
Tomb Raider was also considered flop so it's not really an example of a female protagonist success, nor even if you consider it a success does it live up to other franchises in the same genre. One shooter which sells 3 million does not overshadow dozens of other shooters that sell over 10 million. 3.5 million is not a number to brag about in the very competitive genre that is the shooter. It is especially bad when you realize Tomb Raider is a long established franchise that has built up loyal fans over the years and even then Tomb Raider 2013 has failed to live up to past Tomb Raider sales.
And what kind of game is Sims 2? Life simulation. These are not the games that always get brought into these discussions, it's always action based games aimed at men. People are presuming a majority of women would buy Dragon's Crown and other games aimed at men if only the women were not sexualized, but that is a baseless presumption with zero evidence. If we assert Sims 2 is what women like to play, and indeed a lot of marketing suggests it is aimed at women, why must other genres restrict or alter themselves to appeal to a demographic that has no guarantee a sizable amount of women want to play? Comparing The Sims to Dragon's Crown makes little sense in the grand scheme of things. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
mdreura
Posts: 106 |
|
|||||
Do you have any evidence that the game is actually alienating anyone? Other than you that is? Even Zac is playing the game:
Critics are obviously offended by the game, most of whom for whatever reason seem to be men (Danielle Riendeau of Polygon being the single biggest female critic). Several female forum users have posted in support of sensitivity and inclusion, but generally qualified that the game itself doesn't really bother them. Maybe you just need to grow some thicker skin. And maybe get a little sunshine, as several people suggested earlier in this thread. |
||||||
|
||||||
ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||
|
Typical cherry picking response. No answer as to why not excluding women need contradict with making a game that appeals to men. No answer as to why Remember Me is a flop because of it's female protagonist even though tons of games flop despite having male protagonists.
No, that's just wildly unrealistic. If you're going to claim we can't have female protagonists because they don't move 10 million copies...well then you pretty much have to write off every other game element that won't move 10 million copies to the point that the only games that should ever get made are Call of Duty, Battlefield and Halo. The simple truth is, most games can't sell 10 million copies. That has fudge all to do with the gender of the protagonist. That's just the reality of the game industry. Not every title can be Call of Duty unless of course the only thing you release is Call of Duty.
Getting desperate are we? |
||||||
|
||||||
daveriley
 Posts: 117 Location: Philadelphia |
|
|||||
What I'm talking about is not martial prowess, it's agency, and the sexual fetishization that comes along with removing these character's agency, which is why I take issue with the sorceress's animations, the interstitial NPCs, and the elf's "please don't molest me!" face while grabbed. The overwhelming portrayal of women in this game is "I have been hurt in some way, and my response is to expose my privates while I'm in a daze." Is that okay? I'd say that's about as creepy a fetish as a person playing a video game can possibly have. It's certainly in the top 10. You say that she's playing up her cuteness. This isn't the case of someone acting coquettish, this is functionally an Olive Oyl-level response to peril, and it's nearly across the board... except when it comes to male characters: the male NPCs are never in peril to begin with, the male PCs respond to peril in ways that don't show an absurd level of vulnerability (that is usually) played for erotic shits and giggles. Characters are not people, they don't choose how they dress or act, which is the issue with people saying "no, YOU'RE the sexist" when talking about videogames. We judge characters by a different rubric than we judge people who are capable of making their own decisions. This is especially an issue in games like this, which was my initial point: if the character has no internal life then we can't do anything but take them at face value, and the face value is "lol I'm so dumb, I got hit by an attack and my tits spilled out." Which is like... if you like that, great, I guess. But I sure would've liked to play the version of Ninja Gaiden where Rachel DIDN'T get eaten by a tentacle monster and then spewed out just in time for the camera to lovingly pan over her slime-covered tits.
|
||||||
|
||||||
KoujiTamino
 Posts: 163 Location: Tacoma, WA, USA |
|
|||||
I did. No one here is on any crusade to abolish all eroticism from video games. Why are you so opposed to female characters being treated like the "sexy" counterparts to male characters a little less often? It's like you guys are worried that if females do just a little less erotic posing and not jiggle all over the place quite as often that video games will be ruined and the male demographic will abandon them in droves. You know what else bothers me? Female superheroes rarely getting to wear pants. It's always leotards or skirts and they get some of the most ridiculous poses on comic book covers. It's like, why? Is there really a significant amount of male readers who'll be up in arms if that crap gets toned down even a little? I love cheesecake and have a great appreciation of the female form, I plan on getting Senran Kagura Burst the day it comes out, but I'm also not so blind in my love that I view every criticism of how females are depicted in the media as an attack on eroticism as a whole. Honestly, I probably would have been on your side just a few months ago, but seeing the stubborn refusal of some people to even try and understand why others may take issue with depictions of women in these types of games just outright disturbs me. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
mdreura
Posts: 106 |
|
|||||
Maybe you aren't, but I'm not convinced that certain obsessively persistent commenters wouldn't be overjoyed with exactly that outcome.
If that kind of characterization doesn't fit the creative vision for the game, all you're doing is subverting the creative process. Creative freedom means creative people are free to employ competent capable characters or busty brainless ones as their creative vision demands. There's room for all flavors in the medium. If you like the way a developer like BioWare writes their female characters, by all means support them. They make great games. You can support them without dictating to other devs like Vanillaware how to write their characters to cater to your ideals of gender and sexuality. You can't expect every game on the market (or comic book, or anime) to revolve around you. |
||||||
|
||||||
Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
|
|||||
|
You realize that your argument falls apart when you actually examine the treatment of female characters, not just in videogames but in the vast majority of media, right?
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
Guile
Posts: 595 |
|
|||||
Companies already do this, though. This is why Tomb Raider was turned into a shooter in the first place. Shooters are the big genre in western video game industry right now. More games and genres are being retooled to be shooters because that is what moves those millions of copies, at least in theory. Yes, quite a few don't reach that mark, but that is why games are constantly being retooled and they throw out elements they find prevents these from happening. One of these is female protagonists. Companies do not do this blind, they have focus groups and market testers doing research for them and this is hardly throwing darts at a wall and selecting random characteristics in a game. This is why Elizibeth is absent from the cover of Bioshock Infinite and we are treated to a generic shot of Booker, it was what resonated with the average buyer the most.
That is a very odd way to interpret that statement. I said it in a way to infer that a lot of women are perfectly fine with sexuality and are not given enough credit. To assert that women dislike a character because she has large, exposed breasts or wears no pants and her butt is exposed, but to then dress that way themselves would make little sense. I do not think a good chunk women have an aversion to looking or dressing sexy, especially in an age where the average length of a skirt is becoming shorter and shorter. This line of thinking is just like the outdated idea that women also do not enjoy sex. I must again ask if there is any proof that this mythological group of women who are waiting with purses ready to spend money on a product where characters like Sorceress and Cammy are not found even exists, or if this is baseless speculation? |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
|
|||||
|
I like how you are making up arguments for the opposition. It makes it really easy for you to knock them down.
I also truly enjoy how you don't engage with the actual arguments and positions that have been made. Wonderful debating tactics there. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Oranges
Posts: 4 |
|
|||||
Right, all your points are valid. But I didn't claim the sorceress is 'playing up her cuteness' but rather that it's how I see her. I don't personally feel she portrays any lack of intelligence personally. Their reactions are reflecting just that, reactions to time of vulnerability when they are hit by enemies, what you fill in as what they're 'thinking' at the time is up to you. So to address your initial point, we're both taking what we see at face value and coming to different conclusions. But we've been back and forth about this already, your interpretation is obviously different than mine and I don't think you're wrong to see it that way. I can see how you can come to these conclusions. Some people don't want to see weird fetishes and sex in their games, and that's totally fine. But many game developers and this one in particular made a game they wanted to see and not particularly to appeal to everyone. So yes, there's definitely times when sex and over-the-top fanservice is awkward and out of place but again to my point, taking up the banner that this is somehow morally wrong and the developers and the people who enjoy this stuff are immature, any less intelligent and should be embarassed or offended by it still doesn't sit with me. It is one part of someone's personality and their likes and dislikes, it doesn't necessitate that they are chauvinistic pigs or treat women as objects. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
mdreura
Posts: 106 |
|
|||||
By what measure? There's no objective way to quantify that. In the case of Dragon's Crown. In the exchange between the writer for Kotaku and Kamitani of Vanillaware, Kotaku's writer said Kamitani's picture reply was gay bashing. Kamitani says that was never his intent? Who's right? This thread itself demonstrates as clearly as anyone could ask for the way in which different people can look at different examples of artistic expression and react with different degrees of outrage or lack thereof. That's integral in my argument when I say there's room for all flavors in the medium. You should support what you like, but on the same token creative people should have the freedom to employ classy or trashy female characters as their own creative vision dictates. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
|
|||||
Probably not the person who called the author of the Kotaku article the Japanese equivalent of "Faggot". Granted, Kotaku's showing here isn't particularly great either, but Kamitani's response was deeply offensive regardless.
Again, this would be a completely reasonable argument if gender roles were equal in society which, as you may have noticed, they very much are not. And its just amazing how so often "creative freedom" leads to white male protagonists, female characters who are only around to get rescued or killed (for the development of said male protagonist) and even when they are the main character, get sexualized and put into situations no male character would ever find themselves in. But I'm sure thats just some bizarre quirk of fate, and not evidence of systematic, ingrained misogynistic thinking and gender roles. No way, that couldn't possibly be the case. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
mdreura
Posts: 106 |
|
|||||
I don't disagree with any of these points. But the reality and terribleness of misogyny doesn't justify substituting your ideals of gender and sexual identity for the creative freedom of writers and artists. Fiction springs from reality and reflects attitudes of the real world, good and bad. It always has, and it always will. It's inherent in the creative process, whether the medium is literature or film or video games. Even as we move toward greater equality and awareness of gender politics in the real world, which I'm as big an advocate of as you are by the way, we should be careful not to force those standards on works of fiction to their creative detriment. The same standard doesn't apply in both realms. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
|
|||||
Thats a lovely strawman you have set up there. Please, continue knocking it down. I'll be over here right when you decide to engage with actual arguments made by non-crazy people. |
||||||
|
||||||
HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
|
|||||
|
The video game industry is about the last one you can defend with "but what about the artistic integrity?! Don't bind the creator's ability to express the vision they want!"
|
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group