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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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[quote="Zac"]
Oh, one could mention that the show contains the standard moe package, but I don't really want to read a long paragraph detailing every little bit of cliche or so contained in the anime. It's like if a review for One Piece just listed all the cliches that are in there instead of the things that set it apart from the others. Personally, if I know it's a shounen fighter, then I'm pretty sure of what I'm getting myself into. Reading over Bamboo's review again, I quite liked the paragraphs written about the atmosphere and music, but I just couldn't get over those first two which basically detailed the nuances that are found in every moe/visual novel anime. Maybe had she balanced those paragraphs out by including more information on the story, there might not have been such an uproar? Well, I suppose fans will defend what they enjoy no matter what. Anyway, regarding your last comment, thankfully Clannad was one of (if not) the first visual novels on the PC that was 100% ero-free. The most graphic picture found in Clannad is a kiss, with the characters fully clothed while doing so. There definitely is a prevalent amount of porn though, I agree. I'm not for that. I like the visual novel titles that set themselves above the others. Those that have an emphasis on story and characters rather than erotic content. |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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To be fair, what a show is or isn't based on is largely irrelevant in my mind. A show should be judged on it's own merits. And from what I've read about them, Air/Kanon/Clannad are far tamer and cleaner than a large amount of other animes. But I suppose the fact they are based on H games doesn't help the stereotype these shows (and their fans) suffer from, but as I said, it shouldn't have any bearing on the quality of the shows themselves. EDIT: Apparantly the Clannad visual novel at least is NOT pornagraphic or even close. Interesting. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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To consider as separate the eroge and the anime from which they are derived is appropriate. I would probably not wish to play such games, so too I assume would many others. Such games exist as a means to an end quite distinct from that of their televised stories, an end which many of us would consider to cheapen the drama that preceded it. |
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Ceral
Posts: 28 |
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Interesting eh? I think they saw that there storylines were good enough to sale without the dirty content, and wouldn't you know... "In the October 2007 issue of Dengeki G's Magazine, poll results for the fifty best bishōjo games were released. Out of 249 titles, Clannad ranked first..." I grabbed that from wiki ;p, but if you watch the show, the comedy is what keeps it entertaining and the melodrama is what makes it special. There's nothing about porn or fanservice that motivates me to watch it, that doesn't even come to mind talking on an Anime forum, usually I can talk freely ;p. |
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Mysticmidnightmaiden
Posts: 123 Location: California (Bay Area) |
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Most of your post (besides this quote) was a summary of the plot. I wasn't looking for that. Episode summaries are a Google search away. I want a review based on it's merits. What does it execute well? What does it fail to do well? Besides the characters/plot/theme, what differentiates it from other moe shows? You say it's a seinen show. Besides the few fans who'll give it a view from word of mouth, does it have any crossover appeal to those outside the genre? Could you gateway people into anime with Clannad? That's the kind of support I'm looking for. If Clannad's nothing but a guilty pleasure, there's no problems with that. Everyone deserves their favorite sweets once in a while. It could be a mediocre series and I still wouldn't care. Sometimes we all need a brain break from the hard-hitters. It could be TEH EPIC SERIES U NEED 2 C THIS YR!!1 Just make sure to call it like it is and have proper support for your opinions. That's all. |
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pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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That one's easy. Just don't give to you you-know-who. Unless you want to generate a lot of advertising revenue.  But seriously, I find ANN reviews overall to be high quality. I've reacted vehemently to exactly two of them in the past 6 months or so that I've started reading them. One due to an obvious, heartfelt bias against a genre, and one that contained patently false data.
Informing us that a show fits a certain genre and follows a standard formula or contains the usual cliches is appropriate. Spewing one's hatred for a genre is not. I would prefer to know what, if anything, sets a show apart from the lesser examples of the same genre (requiring someone with experience watching that genre). What about it would make me want to pay for it? Or should I not waste my money, because I'll be back to blame you for fluffing up some dreck. Beyond that, what makes it a show that non-fans of that genre should consider? In the case of Nanoha, there's a reason it is so popular and has three seasons. We didn't get Magical Canan over here, because it's a direct knock-off of Cardcaptor Sakura and Nanoha with virtually nothing original added. Nanatsuiro Drops is decent, though we'll probably never see it licensed. Nanoha on the other hand, is pretty good. Doesn't approach Cardcaptor Sakura, the gold standard, IMHO, but it's certainly worth the money if you like magical girl shows. All it needs is someone to review it who hasn't already decided that it's crap before they even tear off the cellophane.
This is probably not helpful, because few of these are licensed (there's a reason...): Akane-Iro ni Somaru Saka Canvas Da Capo Ef ~A tale of memories/melodies~ Futakoi Futakoi Alternative Goshuushou-sama Ninomiya-kun Ichigo 100% I"S Pure Kannagi (arguable, but they don't entirely resist the standard arc) Kimikiss Pure Rouge Lamune Mamoru-kun ni Megamino Shukufuku Wo Rumbling Hearts Tokimeki Memorial Now, I'm not generalizing. They don't all completely fit that formula (light to dark scale), and I could get arguments on some of them. But all I was trying to do was agree with you, actually. Clannad definitely is light and humorous at the beginning, though I'm experienced enough now to catch the hints. I knew it wasn't a romcom, but a romcom-go-drama. It was a reasonably good show, not high on my list of all anime, but I'll watch the second season someday. On the above list, my favorites, that do rank in my top 50 anyway, are Ef ~A tale of memories~, I"S Pure (now licensed), Kannagi, and Futakoi Alternative (probably shouldn't be on such a list anyway), and yes, definitely, Toradora. Admittedly, I didn't finish all of them. Lamune is not bad, but it's been awhile, so my opinion might change on re-watching. This is just a partial list. I stopped at "L" and tossed in a couple others I recalled. Also, anything not still available as fansubs before 2 years ago isn't there, and if a show was licensed but didn't end up on a Top 100 list somewhere, then I wouldn't have even rented it. I figured it would make the point, being very few of this genre actually get licensed, because any one of these would be a niche title in the U.S. If you like dramedies, you might find more to like than I did. I'm not a big fan, and a series has to "exceed the genre" for me to appreciate it. And if you want moe that is high quality, I'll just point you to Higurashi (When They Cry). You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll cringe, you'll be surprised. |
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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As a new viewer who is unfamiliar with theese types of shows and is interested in trying them out, I find the labels "moe" and "harem" confusing. Can we get a Bechdel rule to separate fan-service and loli comedies from more genuine, heartfelt emottional fare?
Something like: 1. Not every character is trying to sleep with/catch the romantic attentions of the opposite sex protagonist 2. There is a limit to fanservice and slapstick and 3. There are attempts by the protagonist to help the other characters without ulterior (romantic or sexual) motives? Simply stated, if the show is like Fruits Basket with a male lead I'd like to see it, if it's like Love Hina or Kodomo no Jikan, I'd rather avoid it. Terms like "moe," "harem," and "characters who are supposed to be 17 but look 12," don't help differentiate the two types of shows. Comments about being "guilty pleasures," certainly don't help, either. For instance, I don't usually watch giant robot shows, but if a show happens to have giant robots (Flag, Full Metal Panic, even Code Geass) but isn't defined by them, I'm more likely to watch them than the latest Gundam incarnation. Knowing the difference between the two shows helps me decide. Thanks! |
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Flaed
 Posts: 54 |
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I also have always found ANN's reviews of shows to be pretty fair in general, and certainly for "moe" things. Even when I might disagree with one there's always enough information to let me make my own choice (like, recently, with Angelic Layer, though that's kind of an old review). The one time I ignored an ANN review because I thought they must be biased I ended up with the only DVD purchase I still regret making (Someday's Dreamers).
I liked Clannad, and I even have re-watched parts of my set, but it's still not perfect. Fuuko and Kotomi are childish, and I wish the show had more of a focus on Tomoya and Nagisa. The pacing is sometimes very choppy and the dialogue is sometimes very bland. The humor was kind of hit-or-miss for me. I wish the cast was more balanced out, gender-wise. On the other hand, I think Clannad tells a much more linear story than Kanon did - the other girls are as much involved in these storylines as Tomoya (I'd argue Nagisa and her family were more important than Tomoya in the Fuuko storyline), which avoids the "restart" feeling Kanon had. I think that aside from Fuuko and Kotomi and maybe Ryou, it does a fairly good job of making its cast into more than archetypes. And aside from Nagisa and Kyou, nobody's interested in Tomoya romantically. The focus of the show is really on family, not romance. I understand that people can get upset because they have a very strong emotional connection to these shows - that's why they're "moe," after all - but you shouldn't take a review personally, and the fact that something like Clannad depends so strongly on audience goodwill is not really a point in its favor. I don't think you can find a review on this website that's written with more love than the reviews for Kamichu!, a show which I think is often considered. . .moe. And the reviews for shows like Pani Poni Dash!, Strawberry Marshmallow, Rumbling Hearts, Air, Kanon, and, hey, Clannad. . .are all mostly positive. Then again my reaction to the Nanoha review was more "finally, somebody who feels just like me," so maybe I'm not the best judge of these things. ^^; Ah, wait. Bamboo never mentioned that this show has the best ending theme ever. Clearly, this is part of ANN's long-standing bias against dango. I take it all back. 
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pparker
Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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Can I just say, with all due respect, that's a pretty frickin' broad brush you're painting with!  You've pretty much axed every moe-character show out there that contains even minor fanservice. Of course, if that's what you intended, then fine. You'll be hard-pressed to find a dramedy though that doesn't contain some fanservice and harem characteristics without being a complete tear-fest, and even there... I find Love Hina to be a quite respectable character story in the end, regardless of the minor, comedic fanservice (i.e., with Ikkitousen being the upper end of that scale--barely qualifying for public broadcast in Japan). It has some fairly dramatic elements, but I wouldn't push it into dramedy. I do get the point that you want to know if it's Girls Bravo or Air.
You're right, and every one of those shows absolutely utilize moe in their character designs. Kamichu! and Strawberry Marshmallow are two of my favorites, both saturated with moe. There isn't a fanservice bone in them, though, besides that generalization that all moe is by definition fanservice. Any family, setting aside certain belief systems, could watch either of these shows without embarrassment. That's my measure of sexualization as fanservice content. The character designs have little to do with whether or not I like the show. I do get tired of the monotony in designs in these high school settings. Though still somewhat moe, I appreciated the difference in the ef series. In School Days as well, because they remind me of Masakazu Katsura's characters, which I love. I enjoy Please Teacher/Twins as well, because the stories go beyond the fanservice, though they of course contain too much fanservice for some people to ignore. Mizuho Kazami breaks the mold in being a fairly mature but attractive lead character in a moe show with a standard romance plot. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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At our UK news site they also have reviews, but they also allow for any one to agree, or disagree with it by writing their own short review with reasons why they saw it that way. But any whinging and whining, or personal attacks are deleted ASAP, no if, ands, or buts. One can critique the review, but not the reviewer. Perhaps this is something that should be taken on board here as it works very well there at eliminating the playground like bickering. Just a suggestion. |
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belvadeer
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Clannad, I need to finish that. Since I'm a big fan of Air and Kanon, I'm surprised at myself for not being as diligent watching it.
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Flaed
Posts: 54 |
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Clannad passes all of those tests (well - it has a lot of slapstick humor, but barely any sexual fanservice). Tomoya has zero romantic interest in any of the girls at this point except for maybe Nagisa, and aside from Nagisa only one other girl really has any interest in him. His attempts at helping out the various other characters are entirely platonic. As I said above, the focus is honestly on family and not as much romance. I would rent it before buying it, though. It's a very sweet and sentimental show with a very lovable cast, but I think you will either find it touching or ludicrously overdone (or a weird mix of both).
I love Kamichu! - if it was a food, I'd eat it every day for breakfast. And I don't consider "moe" a sexual thing (if I implied that, I apologize). To be honest, I don't really consider it a genre either (or rather once you leave visual novel based stuff it's really hard to classify - Aria isn't moe, but Kamichu! is, and I really have no idea why). As an emotion, moe is something rather precious to me, but it's mostly not elicited by moe things. Certainly not by Clannad.
My point was more that ANN has given plenty of "moe" shows high marks in the past for being quality shows, the same way they will give quality shoujo high marks and quality mecha high marks. And things that are more genre pieces - like, in my own opinion, Nanoha, but also GaoGaiGar and Buso Renkin - they're going to be more harsh on, because they will appeal to people who are pre-disposed to like it and not so much to other people. The review of Clannad was actually positive overall, and all the problems Bamboo noted seemed entirely fair to me. I don't, myself, see a bias here. |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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Ever seen FB? It has fanservice (Yuki in a dress! Nude dudes!), a character who is supposed to be a teen but acts like he's six, lots of slapstick (mostly btw. The males characters), and more melodrama than comedy, IMHO. It even has (reverse) harem elements (one girl living with 3 guys). No different than what people here are saying Key shows have-just a gender reversal. We're not sexist here, are we?
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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LordPrometheus
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Please do. I've actually been looking forward to this site's review of Nanoha A's ever since I bought the boxset. Although, I don't really think that Nanoha qualifies as "moe"; it's more like "magical girl show with cute designs". If cute character designs is all that's needed to define a show as fitting into the "moe genre" these days, then I guess I need to update my lexicon. Ironically, it was the firestorm over the last Nanoha review that got me into the series in the first place. Go figure. I guess good things can come from forum wars after all.
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