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EP. REVIEW: Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch From Mercury


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Beltane70



Joined: 07 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:03 pm Reply with quote
Thesarum wrote:

Both stasis and cloning are options (I vaguely think something said about the spare Elan's implied they were in stasis?), as is time dilation as suggested by Covnam (though most space travel sci-fi ignores those effects for convenience, it'd be a pain in the ass to track it through everyone's travel arrangements).


I don't think that time dilation is at play here considering that they probably aren't traveling anywhere near the speeds or distances where it would come into effect to any significant degree to be noticeable.
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chronium



Joined: 25 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:10 pm Reply with quote
Thesarum wrote:


Possibly. Though making Prospera about 9 years older than Suletta doesn't exactly resolve the timeline issues, unless Suletta is actually a lot younger than we think (which would explain some things) and just physically more developed (either artificially or as a result of living on Mercury). But that wouldn't be entirely consistent with the prequel short story.

Both stasis and cloning are options (I vaguely think something said about the spare Elan's implied they were in stasis?), as is time dilation as suggested by Covnam (though most space travel sci-fi ignores those effects for convenience, it'd be a pain in the ass to track it through everyone's travel arrangements). Or something else entirely (Prospera could be Dr Cardo's daughter for all we know). She's (almost) certainly connected to Vanadis, and that is the threat Delling hasn't fully recognised yet though.


Suletta could be adopted considering they make no mention of her dad and Prospera doesn't seem like the type to get married.
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MagicianMan



Joined: 28 Jun 2020
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:59 pm Reply with quote
We know that, barring cold sleep or time warp shenanigans, Suletta is not Eri and is to old to realistically be Eri's daughter.

That leaves me with the following possibilities currently:
She is her actual younger sister.
She is in some way an artificially created copy of Eri. Be it actual cloning, artificial insemination, a situation like Elan's, or something else.
She is Eri and was put on ice so she'd still be fresh when Prospera was ready to use her for the revenge plan.
She has no actual relation to Eri and her appearance is a red herring. I think that is unlikely just because that would be very narratively unsatisfying.

So far I think the most likely theory from that list is the 2nd one. This then begs the question of why was she created. I would guess that Eri had something unique that needed to be recreated to realize Aerial's full potential.

Since the GUND format was apparently originally created as a system for seamlessly melding humans with machines, and the Lfrith was built to be the ultimate realization of that goal, it's not a huge leap to guess that Eri ended up irreversibly merged with it. Maybe her "sister" was the best choice to synchronize with the real Eri inside the machine.
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Thesarum



Joined: 25 Mar 2022
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:51 am Reply with quote
MagicianMan wrote:
We know that, barring cold sleep or time warp shenanigans, Suletta is not Eri and is to old to realistically be Eri's daughter.

That leaves me with the following possibilities currently:
She is her actual younger sister.
She is in some way an artificially created copy of Eri. Be it actual cloning, artificial insemination, a situation like Elan's, or something else.
She is Eri and was put on ice so she'd still be fresh when Prospera was ready to use her for the revenge plan.
She has no actual relation to Eri and her appearance is a red herring. I think that is unlikely just because that would be very narratively unsatisfying.

So far I think the most likely theory from that list is the 2nd one. This then begs the question of why was she created. I would guess that Eri had something unique that needed to be recreated to realize Aerial's full potential.

Since the GUND format was apparently originally created as a system for seamlessly melding humans with machines, and the Lfrith was built to be the ultimate realization of that goal, it's not a huge leap to guess that Eri ended up irreversibly merged with it. Maybe her "sister" was the best choice to synchronize with the real Eri inside the machine.


I guess my problem with the "fused Eri" theories is that it feels unnecessary. I don't think Aerial needs a human core in order to be sentient, to be special to Suletta, or for Prospera to describe it as her daughter. I'm more inclined to believe Eri is simply dead.

Suletta does bear a very close resemblance to the picture of a young Elnora, so if we're making clones she could just as easily be Elnoras clone as Eri's (though she does appear to carry the slightly darker skin tone inherited from Nadim). This also makes it more unlikely she's simply adopted. I'd say she's definitely related to Eri, but everything beyond that is uncertain.

Further midweek thoughts on slightly more concrete matters:
Sarius got the three branches to cooperate in the plan to set up Suletta. A major feat in itself no doubt. But what was his objective? Suletta herself didn't appear to be the real target (though removing the Holder's wonder-machine also takes her off the board). To destroy Aerial? It seems there would be simpler ways to achieve that for a coalition of their power. To take down Shin sei? It doesn't seem like in purely corporate terms they're big enough to be any kind of threat despite the embarrassments Aerial has handed Peil and Jeturk. Surely he'd be seeking to capitalise on that, not punish them.

So the only plausible explanation, I think, is that what he wanted is exactly what he got. He isolated Prospera and attacked Suletta (via Aerial) specifically to force Miorine to defend her (this, perhaps, is what Shaddiq is thanking Nika for? Identifying Miorine's weakness - I don't think Shaddiq or Sarius know enough to have confidence in this plan without some corroboration from someone close to Suletta and Miorine, and Nika is definitely on to Miorine. Hence his comment that it's a shame she changed). And given the context, this in turn forces Miorine to appeal to her father. Sarius and Prospera set complimentary traps here, and Miorine stumbled into both (though we can perhaps agree that she was awesome while doing so).

It's implied Grassley have their own Gundam development team, so is he just looking to force Delling's hand on this matter? Or does he have some other play? (I think we can assume he's never liked Delling much)

Delling views himself as king, but his courtiers are all out for his head. Jeturk already tried to assassinate him, Peil has opened flouted his rules, and Grassley is making significant moves,
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MagicianMan



Joined: 28 Jun 2020
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:35 pm Reply with quote
Thesarum wrote:

I guess my problem with the "fused Eri" theories is that it feels unnecessary. I don't think Aerial needs a human core in order to be sentient, to be special to Suletta, or for Prospera to describe it as her daughter. I'm more inclined to believe Eri is simply dead.


Thing is, the Vanadis Institute wasn't specifically developing AI, they were developing technology to create cybernetically augmented, evolved humans who could connect their minds directly to machines.
Quote:
"Our bodies are far too fragile for us to venture into space. Just as an infant has to put on clothes, humanity must don the GUND to truly go out into space."

There were a lot of posthumanism vibes from the prologue (and Gundam in general has historically had a lot to say about it). Eri being a casualty of that fits more with this theme as well as all the ethical issues surrounding GUND technology we keep hearing about.

Maybe Eri did just die off screen for unrelated reasons, but then I would say it was unnecessary to have her be a separate character from Suletta in the first place. Whatever happened to Eri has to be directly related to Suletta if they are different people. Even if she was just an attempt by Prospera to replace Eri emotionally. Otherwise the writing just wouldn't make sense.
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chronium



Joined: 25 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:35 am Reply with quote
MagicianMan wrote:


Maybe Eri did just die off screen for unrelated reasons, but then I would say it was unnecessary to have her be a separate character from Suletta in the first place. Whatever happened to Eri has to be directly related to Suletta if they are different people. Even if she was just an attempt by Prospera to replace Eri emotionally. Otherwise the writing just wouldn't make sense.


Prospera is as cold hearted as all the other adults and is clearly lying and manipulating Suletta. They made that clear with this latest episode and Miorine picked up on it. So she wasn't a attempt to replace Eri emotionally.


I don't like how broad of a definition they're making Gundam for this series. Gundam inc's business plan is more about altered humans not Gundams. I guess Sunrise couldn't figure out how to make Gundams interesting non militarily so they're lumping other things in.
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Hal14



Joined: 01 Apr 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:16 am Reply with quote
Different series have had their own definitions of gundam and the one within this series has been consistent: a mobile suit with "gund format technology", i.e. cybernetics which link an individual to the machine. What Mirione seems to be talking about is returning to the original purpose of the gund format (to help people) and making it safe for use.
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John the Dark Lord



Joined: 19 Jun 2020
Posts: 239
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:23 am Reply with quote
chronium wrote:
I don't like how broad of a definition they're making Gundam for this series. Gundam inc's business plan is more about altered humans not Gundams. I guess Sunrise couldn't figure out how to make Gundams interesting non militarily so they're lumping other things in.


It's not broad, it's just that there many similar terms being used here.

Gund Format - The new technology used for prosthetics and cybernetic augmentation meant to help people live in space.
Gund-Arms - Gund adapted to be used in Mobile Suits.
Gundam - Nickname for the Mobile Suits who use Gund-Arms.

What Miorine was saying is that she plans to walk this road in the reverse direction, that is, using the technology of the Gund-Arms they have to restart research of the Gund Format in its original role.
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MagicianMan



Joined: 28 Jun 2020
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:10 pm Reply with quote
John the Dark Lord wrote:

It's not broad, it's just that there many similar terms being used here.

Gund Format - The new technology used for prosthetics and cybernetic augmentation meant to help people live in space.
Gund-Arms - Gund adapted to be used in Mobile Suits.
Gundam - Nickname for the Mobile Suits who use Gund-Arms.

What Miorine was saying is that she plans to walk this road in the reverse direction, that is, using the technology of the Gund-Arms they have to restart research of the Gund Format in its original role.


I mean, so far it seems like the Gund-format already worked just fine for it's intended medical purpose. It's only when you try to scale up to operating heavy machinery and drones with it that the flaw appears. The biological component of the system, the user's nervous system, can't handle the strain of processing such a large amount information. I'm guessing Aerial subverts this limitation by having it's own will that can interpret the pilot's input without having to feed all of the information directly back to pilot's brain.

chronium wrote:

Prospera is as cold hearted as all the other adults and is clearly lying and manipulating Suletta. They made that clear with this latest episode and Miorine picked up on it. So she wasn't a attempt to replace Eri emotionally.


I was thinking more of an "I tried to recreate my daughter, but this thing I made isn't her so I hate it." set up with that line of theorizing.

Another theory is that that Suletta could be Eri with a fully perfected Gund body. That could also explain the apparent age discrepancy. That would mean that Prospera likely isn't her actual mother though.

Speaking of artificial bodies, even back during the prologue I found it hard to believe that a character as seemingly important as the old scientist lady who made the Gund format would just die off screen like that. Just a thought.


Last edited by MagicianMan on Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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chronium



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:14 pm Reply with quote
I get that's what they're supposed to mean but that's not what they've been doing because they have regularly lumped everything together and consider them to be the same thing.
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Thesarum



Joined: 25 Mar 2022
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:53 pm Reply with quote
MagicianMan wrote:
I was thinking more of an "I tried to recreate my daughter, but this thing I made isn't her so I hate it." set up with that line of theorizing.

Another theory is that that Suletta could be Eri with a fully perfected Gund body. That could also explain the apparent age discrepancy. That would mean that Prospera likely isn't her actual mother though.


I don't think Prospera hates Suletta. It's doubtful that "love" properly describes the relationship either, and she's obviously not got a issue with manipulating her and lying to her. But there's quite a big grey area in the middle there. Prospera's thoughts on her "daughter" are likely pretty complicated.

Wouldn't Suletta have to know if she was entirely cybernetic? Prospera's arm has been shown to have issues with battery life. Suletta tends to just believe whatever her mother tells her, but you'd notice if you had to plug yourself into a power outlet on a regular basis to avoid malfunctions. And Miorine would definitely have noticed that night Suletta stayed over to study.
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JohnRhogan



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:52 am Reply with quote
I've also noticed that Suletta's very naive, easy to believe people at their word. Even her own mother has her convinced lying to her own daughter was for her own good. If Prospera had told Suletta the truth, I don't think she would've understood why. It's interesting to see when Miorine is Suletta's fiance, and when to be her friend. I think she might be falling for Suletta.

Back to Prospera, even though she is Suletta's mother, she still cares about her, even if she has an ulterior motive.
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Rosiero



Joined: 05 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:52 am Reply with quote
This show sucks. It sucks straight up.

I really wanted to like it, because a female-fronted lesbian Gundam sounds great, but the writing is absolutely asinine. There's clearly supposed to be an arc about the main characters growing and learning to beat the adults at their own game, but since new rules are constantly being arbitrarily added, it makes the adults look like morons and it completely breaks the suspension of disbelief that this society actually exists the way it does.
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kgw



Joined: 22 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:10 am Reply with quote
I remember we had a glimpse of the outer world(s) in past episodes*. But now we're stuck with a mixture of MBA, high school life and cringe PR videos. While I do not need a nuke exploding and killing every minor character, I'd appreciate something to happen that involves the story moving forward.

I understand the idea of setting a character in a new place and having everything explained to her/the viewers. But it's as if suddenly they decided that Suletta cannot be too active. Lately her most usual dialogue is "Sorry!". She is looking more and more a secondary character in her series (it's the Witch from Mercury, not the Neglected Heiress).

* do you remember the riots on Earth? Apparently the writers don't.


Last edited by kgw on Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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MagicianMan



Joined: 28 Jun 2020
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:15 am Reply with quote
Thesarum wrote:
MagicianMan wrote:
I was thinking more of an "I tried to recreate my daughter, but this thing I made isn't her so I hate it." set up with that line of theorizing.

Another theory is that that Suletta could be Eri with a fully perfected Gund body. That could also explain the apparent age discrepancy. That would mean that Prospera likely isn't her actual mother though.


I don't think Prospera hates Suletta. It's doubtful that "love" properly describes the relationship either, and she's obviously not got a issue with manipulating her and lying to her. But there's quite a big grey area in the middle there. Prospera's thoughts on her "daughter" are likely pretty complicated.

Wouldn't Suletta have to know if she was entirely cybernetic? Prospera's arm has been shown to have issues with battery life. Suletta tends to just believe whatever her mother tells her, but you'd notice if you had to plug yourself into a power outlet on a regular basis to avoid malfunctions. And Miorine would definitely have noticed that night Suletta stayed over to study.


We don't know the limitations of the tech and how real it can look, so I couldn't say. I'd expect newer or more expensive cyberware to look more real and have a better power source. I keeping thinking of that shot of the kid with a transparent back and you can see their whole thorax is entirely artificial. Prospera sure does like showing off that party trick of her's though. " I understand your concerns about Gundam tech, but did you know my arm comes off?"

That was just me spitballing ideas though, I'm fairly confident from the information we have so far that Eri, or an imprint of her, is Aerial and Suletta was made/altered/adopted/whatever to be her ideal pilot. I'm more interested now in seeing if Prospera's identity has any curve balls. I could see that going either way.
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