Forum - View topic

REVIEW: Koikimo

manapear wrote:

And even then, I think the criticism that women could have drank the cool-aid and that shows a bias in what they feel is fantasy is kinda key. If a woman is so indoctrinated in systemic issues that she doesn't see how they're bad, wouldn't she replicate them thinking they're something she should also desire?

I understand you meant well, but... please consider that this comment is very loaded with a lot of unfortunate implications and is a common SWERF talking point. It's one thing to say that the story is not well-written in your perspective but it's another thing to imply "women aren't having the right kind of fantasies and it's because they were brainwashed!"

Ming Yi wrote:

manapear wrote: And even then, I think the criticism that women could have drank the cool-aid and that shows a bias in what they feel is fantasy is kinda key. If a woman is so indoctrinated in systemic issues that she doesn't see how they're bad, wouldn't she replicate them thinking they're something she should also desire? I understand you meant well, but... please consider that this comment is very loaded with a lot of unfortunate implications and is a common SWERF talking point. It's one thing to say that the story is not well-written in your perspective but it's another thing to imply "women aren't having the right kind of fantasies and it's because they were brainwashed!"

I avoid SWERFs with everything I can, so I don't know what they're saying and it compares to what I said, but as a WoC, we also have these kind of convos about how other fans of color may replicate racist and very unfortunate stereotypes in their fiction. For instance, Black fans that also engage in very fetishized, slave play and the like. There's room to say these people can do what they want and explore things how they like, but if they start publishing harmful depictions that are rooted in something and continue to be a factor in a group's marginalization, that's something to critique and point out.

manapear wrote:

I avoid SWERFs with everything I can, so I don't know what they're saying and it compares to what I said, but as a WoC, we also have these kind of convos about how other fans of color may replicate racist and very unfortunate stereotypes in their fiction. For instance, Black fans that also engage in very fetishized, slave play and the like. There's room to say these people can do what they want and explore things how they like, but if they start publishing harmful depictions that are rooted in something and continue to be a factor in a group's marginalization, that's something to critique and point out.

I understand. I just think with this sort of statement applied to the subject in particular, maybe it's better to discuss this with Asians who grew up in Asia to understand why these depictions are common, why they find them appealing, and their views on the consumption of problematic themes, instead of simplifying it to "they drank the cool-Aid." That sort of statement veers dangerously into a SWERF argument made to morally shame certain female fantasies and call Asian countries "backwards."

As another user pointed out, the popularity of age gap stories for women is probably due to the appeal of how an older, working man is seen as more mature and financially stable. Regardless, the story's content needed better execution. Apparently, this comic started out as a series of uploads on the author's Pixiv account until it got so popular it got picked up by Ichijinsha. I don't think the author intended it to get as big as it did. It kind of reminds me of how a lot of people know Ogeretsu Tanaka for Yarichin Bitch Club when they originally posted it as a parody on Pixiv until it got a publishing deal (which is a shame because their more professional works are really good, IMHO).

For me the problem wasn't even the age gap, I can understand the appeal, but the stalking and everyone ignoring her wishes was just...why? What's the fantasy in that?

Honestly kinda feel bad for the reviewer. They have 2 whole paragraphs defending themselves from expected criticisms, except those two paragraphs should kinda be implied in any review that discusses material that may be considered problematic. It's extra sad because the criticisms they preemptively respond to are ones I see all the time whenever someone tries to suggest the material of a series might not be appropriate and they are met with a brigade of insults and bad faith complaints without actually substantively refuting the claims made in the review.

The age gap complain in anime thingy is the same as the marring your cousin complain.

I don't get why is treated as a "Japan thing" when marring your cousin is legal in half of the USA.

Women falling for older men who represent stability and maturity it's pretty common both in fiction and reality, can't think of a sole 90s sitcom without an episode of a girl falling for the new teacher and the like.

Saved by the Bell had a whole arc about Kelly falling for a profesor and feminists complain that 20-something women are ok searching for men up to 50 years on Tinder but the oposite is not true.

Juliet was 13 years old, Romeo's age is not given, but he carries a sword thus he should be close to 18.

You can think it's ok or not, but it is not a Japanese fantasy, its a world fantasy.

I've seen a good number of discussions on it, across the diaspora, but I'm not Asian and I won't speak for them. I feel like I sometimes see joseimuke fans having these discussions on Twitter, and I don't use many other sites that Japanese people use for social media to really follow it there, but I guess if one really wanted to dig deeper, the convo is out there.

I like age gap myself, and I tend to enjoy it in shojo, josei and TL alike. And I have seen the trend of age gap going both directions more often lately, but only with mild commentary on the shift. But I think like all things, it comes down to the handling. And people of a marginalized group can be just as guilty as perpetuating problems, regardless of why they indulge it, and it shouldn't be free of criticism. Especially if it's reaching a wider audience and available to the public, it should always be examined.

As someone who hasn't watched the show (but I'm slightly considering it), I wonder if some of the issues could have been solved by making Ichika a freshman in college. That way you still have the dynamic of younger girl x salaryman, but you don't have the issue of "she's literally underaged". Though that wouldn't make Ryo's unwanted advances any less creepy, they at least wouldn't be illegal.