Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation II
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Mami-kouga
Posts: 201 |
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You basically got it. It's the fact that Rudeus doesn't have any responsibility that is my issue. Back when I watched the scene with Eris I was mostly fine with it but I've lost my patience with Rifujin the more he repeats specific trends. |
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jmckenna15
Posts: 132 |
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What happened between him and Eris wasn't a "wrong" though. Both were acting with each other's consent, both had feelings for each other, and he was even willing to embrace having her as a girlfriend only to find out she left him. In this case, there is no question that both parties are in the wrong to varying degrees, but even here Rudeus knows he can't turn the clock back and is trying to make the best possible decision going forward (or the least bad one). It would be a greater wrong to try and brush it off as if nothing happened -- dismissing Roxy's now-obvious feelings for him and spitting on the good-intentioned (though not objectively good) thing that she did. Overall, the way Rudeus deals with the women in his life has been one of the stronger aspects of Rifujin's writing for me. He started off poorly, but as time as gone on, he's putting them ahead of his own needs and treating them with the respect and love that we know he has for them. This is what he did for Lillia. For Sylphy. For his sisters, For Zenith. and it's what he's doing for Roxy. He's a young man now about to be a father, and that comes with him taking more responsibility and he's been doing that this whole cour. I respect the critique that this is a tough way to introduce polygamy into his life. Ideally you'd tell your first wife before shacking up with your second, but his mental state was not in a place where he was thinking much beyond his own grief at the time of the act. It's not perfect writing, and it's not as good as the episode that preceeded it, but you can see Rifujin's ethos even in this moment and the story is better for it. He might be hitting the same thematic beats, but having it be different characters and different responses to those beats is important lest it just become a rote wish-fulfillment isekai. |
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Mami-kouga
Posts: 201 |
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He slept with an emotionally vulnerable teenage girl while also acknowledging that he shouldn't do that. Even with the context of the narrative it was considered by Rudeus a bad look. That said, my issue with that specific scene is less than it happened and more the choice they used to have Rudeus caving (the stupid "I want your kittens" line).
Also we're still not on the same page. You're still just focused on the particular circumstances Rifujin contrived in this situation, my issues with this situation are born from many choices that came before. It's just another addition to the pile. I'll respectfully disagree about the writing for women particularly in regards to Rudeus being the stronger parts of the series if anything it's now terrible in less obvious ways while letting Rudeus get away with certain things. I also disagree with the story being better for it with how this episode played out but at that point that's just us simply disagreeing |
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jmckenna15
Posts: 132 |
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We have to remember that they both had feelings for eachother so it wasn't out of the blue that this would and could happen. We can argue as to whether it was a particularly healthy choice the both of them made, but to go as far as to say it was a wrong on the level of this week's episode or other similar moments is not something I can agree with. It was two teenagers who felt for eachother struggling with the situations they found themselves in.
I'm directly addressing your point about the choices that came before. These situations are not "contrived" in the way you're using the term, but the writing and character choices are why Season 2 is as strong as it is. We see a mature and responsible Rudeus now because he had all those moments from Season 1 where he made mistakes, there was a consequence to them even if it was one that he had to find out himself rather it being done to him, and it shows just how much progression he as a person has made since, however uneven it might have been. Season 2 Rudeus is heads and shoulders above Season 1 Rudeus -- even what happened in ep23 doesn't negate that because he's approaching it in as mature a way as he can. I find few faults in the choices made leading up to this in hindsight because without them, the payoff we're experiencing now -- and our reactions to this episode in particular -- wouldn't hit as hard otherwise. Even the episode where he meets Julie. Yes, it was a bit too awkward for my taste (and the slave market humor didn't work for me) but the fact he outright said she's an apprentice and not a slave -- even a surrogate daughter in the right lens -- makes up for that. |
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Mami-kouga
Posts: 201 |
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I never once said that it was wrong on the same level as this episode I said it was a parallel to this episode and part of a trend not that every incident in this trend were on the same level.
Once again, we are not on the same page starting from the fact that your points are overly focused on Rudeus' development in a way I just do not care about at all. I am not critiquing Rudeus development, I am critiquing the absolution he gets from the narrative even when he himself is not aware of it whenever he has a conflict with a woman. It works better in some moments than others but the fact that it keeps happening and I am sure it will continue to happen is what I take issue with. I do not think that turning her into a surrogate daughter makes up for the slavery episode personally because there are more issues with the slavery episode than Rudeus eventually being a good slaver. We are going to have to just come to terms with the fact that the back and forth we are engaging in is pointless which is why I said from the jump I'm not interested in a longer conversation. Last edited by Mami-kouga on Mon Jun 24, 2024 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jabootu
Posts: 158 |
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That's kind of what I mean. Rudeus' development is the entire story. It's the beating heart of one grand saga that spans nearly 30 books. It's like saying, "I don't care about musings on the perspective of an immortal person" when talking about Frieren. You're talking about not liking the baseline story the author has chosen to tell, and again, that's certainly your right. You are entirely within your rights not to enjoy any given work, but again, it's not a "criticism." |
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jmckenna15
Posts: 132 |
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The issue with this particular title is many people criticize Rudeus' actions with being bad writing rather than writing a flawed character very well. The worldbuilding and character arcs in this story are outstanding. Even when Rudeus makes mistakes, we get why he makes them and we see him overcome them. When there's differences between this world and our world, they make narrative and logical sense based on what is revealed to us about this world. He has us engaging with his world on his terms -- and that's down to good writing.
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Gamen
Posts: 240 |
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I mean, I can't think of a single "normal" relationship here.
Paul and Zenith - Paul persistently propositioned her, she eventually relented expecting him to be unfaithful, and he got her pregnant so they married. No real courtship, just straight from one night stand to shotgun wedding. Paul and Lilia - He raped her when they were kids, then as the family maid she seduced him and he bit hook, line, and sinker and married her when that got her pregnant. And she's still basically the family maid/nanny. Cliff and Elinalise - Closest thing we have to a normal courtship with the goal of marriage.... Of course Cliff is a teenage boy and Elinalise is at least old enough to be his grandmother. And they jump right into having sex. Rudy and Eris - He pursued her, she sad wait until we're older, they journeyed together as friends and comrades, she lost her family and seduced him basically to cement their relationship as family despite knowing that she was going to leave him and go off on her own. Rudy and Sylphje - Childhood friend and basically her world to the point their parents separated them, then when they're reunited she hides her identity until the moment comes to seduce him. And then they immediately marry and start a family. Rudy and Roxy - His teacher, and older than his parents, and it's not just a bit of a rescue romance but she seduces him to cheer him up despite him already being married... TBD Rudy and Sara - Almost enemies-to-lovers rescue romance gone wrong. It's definitely a trend that when it comes down to it Rudy is pretty passive; it's the woman basically taking the lead/initiating it/setting up the situation and him going along with it, despite him being a pest to them to one degree or another at the beginning. |
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jmckenna15
Posts: 132 |
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He doesn't automatically get absolution though. He frequently has to confront what he did wrong and try and make amends for it when he is the one in the wrong. He'll have to do that next episode in all likelihood even. The "conflicts" he has with women all fit this bill -- be it the first time he takes a bath with Sylphy, being too creepy with Eris and getting his head kicked in repeatedly, or that he drove Sara away due to his own embarrassing case of ED. The narrative doesn't let them roll off his back or he is forgiven automatically without something on his part. But yes, if you don't care about what are genuinely major character developments on Rudeus' part, or focused on some kind of absolution the narrative has not presented, you're in for a rough time with this show I'm afraid. |
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Jabootu
Posts: 158 |
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Yes, but that's proper criticism. In that case you're not criticizing the goals of the author, you're criticizing how well his art achieves those goals. The kind of choices Mami-kouga has issue with are with the goal itself. Moral ambiguity and the idea that all people are flawed to one extent or another and following the story of one man's entire life (or lives) to become, not a paragon, but a better person than when he started is the entire goal of Mushoku Tensei. It is a tale reeking of complex and sympathetic humanity. Mate that with some of the best worldbuilding I've ever seen and some of the deepest characterizations in the medium and you really have a wonderful work. Rudy starts from a really bad place because we have to believe it's a lifetime journey for him to finally become, if he can, an actual good person. He has to keep making mistakes while young so he can learn from them. He still has an entire life ahead of him, so of course he's still making questionable decisions. But his aching wish to be better and do better and the stumbling steps he takes to get there are the story the author wishes to tell. None of the things Mami-kouga has issue with damages those goals; indeed, they constitute exactly what advances them. Again, I completely agree everyone has the right to dislike the goals any author sets his or her hat on, I'm just pointing out it's not criticism to say "I don't like that." |
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Mami-kouga
Posts: 201 |
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Just to clarify, I don't care about the character developments in context of what I'm talking about, not in general. His being too creepy with Sylphie ultimately doesn't matter, because she quickly forgives him and she will forgive him for even worse shit years later. His being too creepy with Eris doesn't matter, because it doesn't affect his relationship with her in the long term amounting to just slapstick and the one time he seriously reflects on it it's quickly followed up by the reveal that she actually likes him and is willing to wait until their older before they have sex. His fudge up with Sara is actually the cloooosest the story gets into handling things in a way I find satisfying, but then it leads to ED arc which I think is the legitmately worst thing the show has subjected me to past the depressed magician arc and of course there's an unadapted pov chapter that once again exists to grant him absolution from the mouth of a woman. This is why we're at an impasse, you are satisfied with the ways the story frames these results and I am increasingly more disatisfied with every new instance because it exposes what I consider repetition to the point of being grating. I said this back when the Norn episode aired (though that was much better than the latest one) but in theory the resolution makes sense but the more this occurs the more I have to wonder why Rifujin chooses to make these choices. Also we've had Rudeus casually partake in slavery without batting an eye while sexualising the slaves that are being dehumanised in front of him, him tying a bunch of girls for breaking a doll he himself acknowledges he can easily fixed, turning a stolen pair of underwear into a worship symbol, turning his wife's virgin blood into a worship symbol and that's just stuff he's done this season. This show is nothing BUT rough times it doesn't get particularly better about it. I doubt it's ever going to stop being this deeply weird about women, I'm at least sure I'm never going to read any of this author's other works whenever the show inevitably gets on my nerves so much I just give up on it for boring me too much. |
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Jabootu
Posts: 158 |
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In the beginning of the story the MC was someone who (with some level of accuracy) blamed an outside set of factors--his bullies, most obviously--as well as society at large and even his family, with the terrible life he ended up leading. In his rage and self-loathing he was completely unable to focus inward on that fact that as time went along he was increasingly himself responsible for his fate.
As Rudy, the MC now routinely ponders his own moral shortcomings and how to best overcome them so as to help and protect the people he loves. Of course he doesn't have all the answers yet, and of course a lot of time when you try to fix one wrong you end up doing another wrong because of unintended consequences. That's all reflected in the storytelling here. Eris felt so insecure about her worthiness to stay by Rudy's side that left him in order to earn that right. However, in her worship of Rudy she so failed to understand the real man behind her idealized vision of him that she quite nearly caused him to kill himself. Rudy, in turn, was so shattered by being abandoned by her (or so he believed) that he has been to his day unable to really think about what her intentions might have actually been. There are a hundred examples of that throughout the show--take Roxy's inability to believe that her parents actually loved her. We often complain about works where the plot could be resolved with a simple explanation. Here the characters are deeply etched enough that we nearly always understand the fears that keep people from talking to the other person. And if we don't understand now we have faith we'll come to understand it later. That sort of nuanced storytelling is what draws and fascinates most of us.
But what's normal? (I know you get that because you put quotes around normal.) And normal by what standards? Modern American standards? Modern Japanese standards? Atheist standards? Catholic ones? Muslim ones? Medieval European ones? (Closer.) By the standards of the fantasy world the characters live in? Certainly the last is the most relevant. Then the only question is whether those standards are consistent enough (and inconsistent too, but in the right way) that they add to the storytelling rather than detracting from it. Rudy is passive because he's naturally cautious and, like many victims of bullies, wishes to remain unseen as much as possible. It's more than that, though. He's hugely powerful but is consistently adverse to pushing his weight around. When he sees a bunch of bullies as a kid, he uses a minimal amount of force to drive them off. When he sees a bunch of bullies as an adult, he bypasses force entirely and instead uses his reputation (which admittedly involves using the threat of force) to drive them off. Rudy saves the beastman village that wrongly imprisoned and scorned him. His lack of ever seeking or wanting revenge is one of the best traits he has. And if his passivity causes the women around him to make moves on him rather than to wait for him to figure things out, well, they are right to do so because he might never figure things out. And the whole "sex pest" thing is a bit overstated at this point. Rudy has been moving away from those tendencies for quite a while now. |
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ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 660 |
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The fact that every single one of Rudy's bad actions has to be met with varied defenses of why they're not actually bad, or his fault, or that he has any responsibilities what-so-ever, yet are supposedly the thing he's growing from. Today's posts have truly exemplified this, as Mami gave a very direct criticism and has been met with the same browbeating that happens every single time in this thread that anyone tries to actively engage with the show or it's messaging.
I will say that they, once again I assume unintentionally, almost answered one of Mami's points! Mami, through the power of pointing directly to the text, noticed that even Rudy acknowledges what he did was wrong, yet the response has been that it's not true because he doesn't have responsibility because the narrative absolves him of it. That this is exactly what Mami was saying as a bad thing fell on deaf ears because that's the true wish fulfillment of the series. That's not a downside to the story, it's the literal core of it. Every single horrible action Rudy has done eventually comes back to reward him, because that's the fantasy at play here. Rudy doesn't "become a better person" by addressing any of those things. He "becomes a happier person" by those things, that we, as readers in the actual world recognize as gross and heinous, not being that in the fantasy world constructed around him. The growth he displays has nothing with addressing those problems, but by Rudy recognizing he's now in a world that actively doesn't care about them. To live by indulging himself in this world where responsibility for his actions is removed, and where wives present themselves to him as his reward for no longer thinking his actions are wrong. The narrative reasoning in that specific scene isn't that Rudy recognizes what he's doing is wrong. The narrative reasoning is that Rudy is wrong for thinking he's doing something wrong and then goes on to pin everything actionable on the other party. Which yeah, I'm with Mami that this isn't great, but from the perspective of the replies that is the thing that is above criticism as it is the crux of the story. However, that would require being honest. Which the responses continually do not do. Even with the narrative itself finding ways to absolve Rudy, they continue to make up other reasons that are explicitly their own fantasy. In fact, it makes the "Only authors are allowed to criticize their work" post extremely telling. Rifujen himself posted publicly about how Rudy buying a child slave was morally irrelevant to the character. The actual factual author announcing that yes, Rudy is a child slaver, and that the character feels nothing wrong about this. Yet in the defenses of this latest episode the very same poster declares that no no it's just a translation issue. People that call Rudy a slaver are misinformed, not rightfully noticing how gross of an action that is. And that is the other crux at play. That the wish fulfillment of defending every one of Rudy's actions goes beyond the narrative doing so. That buying into that fantasy now has outright lies, against the voice of the author, against actions that even those that buy into the narrative fantasy recognize as awful. They know he will not 'grow' from this action. They recognize it is clearly abhorrent, but since they cannot attempt to handwaive it away like the myriad sexual assaults they simply rewrite reality. They continue to post that it's not "actual slavery" over and over and over in this thread in some vain attempt to gaslight everyone about the one thing that even they recognize does not fit the illusion of growing as a person. And that is where we currently sit. Where even attempting the mildest criticism of the show gets repeated posts of how wrong you are, from voices that don't believe in criticism at all, and that have no problem outright lying to shut down any attempt at critical thought. |
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Gamen
Posts: 240 |
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For good or ill, I think that's overstating things a bit. He doesn't get to the point of acknowledging it, he is just starting to question whether it would be taking advantage of her when she pushes him down and derails his thoughts. The larger point that the narrative is pushing him into giving in, that it's laying down justifications for it, still stands of course. On that same line is that she's kept him completely unaware that she plans on leaving right after sleeping with him. And that it's similar to the situation with Roxy where (cut details from the novel) spoiler[Elinalise tricks Rudy into thinking Roxy is pregnant and taking responsibility for that. She and Roxy are close friends and she wants to see Roxy happy. It's hard to say just how much she prioritizes that over her own granddaughter's happiness, but on the other hand it's a world where monogamy is a weird thing mainly practiced by one religion so it's not something she or her granddaughter "assume" is the norm. All of which "clears the path" for Rudy to take Roxy as his wife as well.] |
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Hal14
 Posts: 687 Location: Heart of africa |
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It's odd that we're told monogamy isn't the norm when it's convenient for Rudy but most relationships we've seen (married or otherwise) have been monogamous. Even ones by non-humans like Roxy's parents or Sylph's parents/Elinalises child.
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