Forum - View topicBleach Manga Enters 'Climax' In 2 Chapters
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Black Turtle
 Posts: 110 |
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So, I'll come again with number, to prove that bleach didn't deserve a special treatment. I did math about the best selling Shueisha mangas. I took my numbers from the best selling wikipedia page. For the finished mangas, I took the numbers like they are. for those ongoing, I checked from when were the numbers on the page, divided the number given by the number of years between the beginning of the series and the date of the numbers on the page, to get a number of sales by year for this period. Then I added this number multiplied by the years between the numbers on the page and today. This method give an advantage to series with dropping sales (like bleach). the series marked with an * are those still ongoing, but in hiatus since the numbers, with no new volume, or with date of the numbers unspecified. But the Idea is to get an order of size. Then I divided the number by the number of volume, to get an average copies sold by volume.
I stopped at the 30m copies sold (+ Assassination Classroom, I thought it was intersting to have one of the ongoing "new" series). Also, for most series, the numbers are the japanese nubmers (except for One Piece. It's know that DB has 300m copies over the world, and it still says 230 here).
What we can see is that bleach is in the lower part of the best selling copies. It does good but not that good. Now add the fact that for the past years, the numbers of copies sold only hit 600k by volume, and the negative polls, and you get your reason. But the other thing you see, is that you can't compare Bleach with anything. They never let or had to let any series that had this kind of score go for so long. Even the things that run for 40 years do better in average that bleach do now. You can't deny Bleach is anormality in the magazine. yeah there are things that have worst sales, but still those won't ever get in the bleach case. Because it's not a [expletive] 74 volume long story. Now yeah, you may argue it's sudden, but business wise, it's the right call, it's a series that does not work anymore, doesn't get new lectors, and continue to take every week a spot that could be better used. why keep a manga that keep declining over something that only can grow. Now about the "he said the last arc will last 5 years". Come on guys, that's now how it work. If your series don't sell enough you won't get them. I can understand the anger of the fans, but seriously, you have to be blind to not see that was coming. Bleach didn't deserve a special treatment due to his sales. they were good in average, but not exceptionnal. Some series may sold less copies, but aren't permanently in the bottom of the poll and selling worse each year. They let him continue for far too long out of respect due to what bleach was, any other series would have been axed long ago. Even if Kubo was axed, he should have seen it coming and changed it's pacing. but no he continued like everything went well. Shueisha did what they had to do. [edit] Also for those who say "beh, Bleach don't get an extended chapter but Nisekoi does". Those are two completely different matter. Nisekoi author was asked to extend its manga. Story didn't progress since around chapter 50/60. After that, Shueisha asked for more, and we got 100 chapters of more potential girls, more harem situation, when the 50 to 60 chapter only had 1 guy, 2 girls. What it was reduced in the end. You can't let someone who could have ended his story 2 years ago but didn't because you wanted him to continue the same way that the ever declining story that the author don't want to end but you want terminated. Last edited by Black Turtle on Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:17 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ambimunch
 Posts: 2012 |
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Anything that isn't bringing Naruto/OP money is mediocre, at best it's "aright. Mediocrity does not relate to plot, in this case, but sales. You could say Bleach also has mediocre sales, that's a fact. I'll say it for the millionth time, SJ don't have heavy hitters. Aside from OP everything is laughable. Which brings it back to our point. WSJ is not a balanced magazine, the scales are heavily shifted towards a single series. It's good that they have it, but it would also be a good idea to have some other stuff too. Instead, they're canning Bleach/Toriko/Gintama - the chances that a newer series will make at least the amount that these are currently making is low. Most of new series don't survive or last, the probability that they will get 3 new heavy hitters or all 3 news series will be making the same as the series they canned is very low. How many more times are you gonna make me repeat it, you're completely missing the point.
Step 1: Go read it to answer part 1 of your statement. Step 2: Bias opinionated child is bias. "Your favorite Pokemon is not my favorite Pokemon so your Pokemon is shit" - so much for your objectivity.
1. Go read the definition if prejudice. By that logic you like killing monsters, which are animals, so we need PETA on your ass. 2. I will always be pro-justice, and in this case, Kubo was screwed, so I will defend him. 3. Geez, multiple chapters long? You don't say. That's unheard of in any manga. And yeah, Kishimoto or Oda aren't milking their series, oh and let's completely forget the business they're in, aaaaand let's forget that WSJ typically makes authors stretch their manga - but of course that isn't to milk it, no, nothing like that. Why would a business need money, that's silly. 4. Wow, I tip my hat to you. You have officially figured out the shonen manga structure. 5. Sigh, most of their mangakas are mid tier. And yeah, sure, they can move on, but they didn't have to bend over Kubo and violate him with a sandpaper condom. That is disrespectful to the man, and that is them spitting in the face of all Bleach fans who have been following the series for years. A proper heads up to let the man end his series how he wants it, or at least have enough time to wrap it up, would have been appreciated. 6. I guess, but imagine the world we lived in if every Employer spit in the face of his Employee. That's their right. Let's completely ignore the concepts of employee loyalty, retention, and work satisfaction. Interestingly enough, companies that treat their employees with respect have better business. Go read the Starbucks case from the Richard Ivey School of Business - especially the part how they create loyalty amongst employees by treating them well and how strong of a competency that became. That's just a little insight for you into the world of Commerce. 7. Yup, they don't owe anything to a person who worked for them for over 15 years and generated them billions, yup, not even decency. Your mentality is so immature, you have no clue what ethics are, you don't know the value that certain intangible assets bring to a business, you don't know the concept of goodwill, and you certainly lack any basic moral standards. How very sad. |
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Black Turtle
Posts: 110 |
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That's not how it work. In the comic industry, if your story keep falling in sales and in popularity poll, it get axed. End of line. it's the same with tv series. How many good series with decent viewing were axed because the network thought it was not enough. The editor don't "have to" give Kubo a chance to do it. The only way to do what you want is to finance your product yourself. Don't forget that letting a declining series continue, it's not letting someone with fresh idea begin. you can't let something on the fall for year indefinitely continue instead of something that could potentially do better. since the beginning you're saying it's better to let the declining series until the reader have no interest anymore, than trying to create something new, that may fail, but may be a hit. because Bleach won't become a hit again. It's been a while it's past its expiration date, and they let it continue until now. Yes it's brutal, but you can't deny he had the possibility to finish without rushing, but didn't take it. |
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Ambimunch
Posts: 2012 |
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For sure man. But I'm arguing with a child who uses arguments like "Bleach sucks so it needs to end, there is nothing the show has left to tell" - so to piss him off, I reply with a simplistic counterargument to make him mad. We're blending very multiple concepts here: Business, Ethics, Work Politics. From a business perspective it is understandable that Bleach wouldn't last - however I am arguing not the soundness of the business decision but rather the human relations and basic person to person decency here. There are many right ways to go about asking Kubo to wrap it up, and there are wrong ways of doing it. WSJ chose the wrong method, the "spit in your face method". Kubo was wronged, not by the decision, but by its execution. Recall a phrase that reads: "It's not about what you say, It's about how you say it" |
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Black Turtle
Posts: 110 |
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But you have have to admit, even without saying it explicitly, Kubo should have know the polls and the sales, and continued exactly like if nothing was coming. I mean, flower guy against the hand and Hitsugay, Byayukka and Kenpachi against the energy giant lasted for far too long. when you know you're not doing well, you at least try to give your fight decent length. It can't have been a total surprise, he had the time to finish it without feeling rushed, but didn't take it. It's sad, but you can't deny Kubo did nothing to avoid it. he just continued exactly like he did for years. Being close to the end is not even an argument when you kept dropping in both popularity and sales for 5 years. Kubo is not all white here. Shueisha neither. |
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CelestialEmpress
 Posts: 113 |
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Bleach needs to end. There was more story to tell, but the problem is that the author WASN'T [expletive] TELLING IT. We didn't need to spend months at a time watching Minor Soul Reaper #12 fighting against Minor Antagonist #16 when every fight went the same way: MSR12 uses their ultimate attack, MA16 reveals that it didn't work and has their own ultimate attack, then MSR12 explains that they have a SUPER ultimate attack that's even stronger, rinse and repeat for seven weeks. It's obvious that Kubo's majorly rushing things in these final weeks, but he absolutely brought that on himself by spending about three out of the past four years meandering around on side fights that ultimately added almost nothing to the story. Add in the fact how little detail and few panels are actually in an average Bleach chapter (which if the editors really had as much control as everyone says, you'd think that would have been one of the first things they'd nailed him on), and the series' glacial pace is ultimately what killed it. |
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Renasviel
Posts: 143 |
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And no one is to blame for that except Kubo. Let's not pretend that we needed to do the rinse and repeating we did with every Bleach character getting their fight that was 6, 7, 8 chapters long when the final result was already clear, or all the other times he has just stalled. What about the breaks he's had to "figure out the ending" - he clearly knew his time was limited here. I get the idea was to give every character their moment to shine again, but we don't need 2 or 3 months for that. It could be done in a chapter or two - just look at the number of weekly series that managed to tell their entire story, sometimes with multiple arcs, within 200 chapters. If Kubo couldn't tell one arc within 200 without having to stall so clearly, then frankly he's not very good at all. He has had plenty of time, to be honest, Bleach fans should be happy he got as much as he did instead of crying about "why didn't he get more!" - I wish Rosario + Vampire had been afforded half the luxury Bleach had, and that still managed to tell a competent ending. No one other series except One Piece would have had as long as Bleach has been given in the position it has been in to end competently. Eventually, they had to pull the plug, it is wholly on Kubo that he hasn't been able to pace this sensibly. For all we know, they've already offered him multiple extensions from when they wanted it to end and he hasn't done anything with it - as I said before, it's not like they woke up one morning and decided Bleach had to end next month.
Waaaaay too early to say. Unlikely as well - he's hurt his own series legacy for starters by not ending it properly, and even before that the series has been downhill for a long time - Bleach will be remembered as a series that was once great and then went downhill and was mostly pretty poor, with an awful ending. This arc was Kubo's chance to redeem the series, and instead of doing right by the series, he sought to make as much from it as he could by stretching it out for as long as he could get away with it, and in the process he has tarnished any chance of his series leaving much of a legacy. This isn't "Aww poor Kubo". This is solely on him.
Dude, have you even read what you have posed? I mean, come on, a slave? Kubo's made a nice living off of this, and you have to either deluded or blind to not see how he has stalled for time on this arc heavily by pacing it very badly. I don't really get your fascination with the guy, but even then, this is clearly on him. Somehow you've deluded yourself into thinking Kubo can do no wrong, when your frustration should be directed towards him for not showing much respect towards his loyal fans who have stuck by his series. Look at how much has not made sense at all this arc, he's done whatever he felt like many times with no regard to any in-lore logic for the most part. He really has strung them along, and now they've finally told him they've had enough and pulled the plug. Very much deserved.
You seem to be mistaken by assuming that the highest earner sets the bar for which all series must follow. The actual fact is that a number of the series on their roster is selling well enough for them to justify keeping them in there - that's not mediocrity, that's a success. Something doesn't stop being successful just because it's not the best selling series of all time. WSJ aren't so much looking for something to overtake One Piece as they are looking for a series that can hold its own for a number of years to come. Shokugeki is one of them. Popularity polls also play a part, as they are how they judge what the readership actually wants to see in their magazine. And Bleach has been around the bottom for a long time. Nisekoi has been in a similar spot, and you seem to have no qualms with that ending. Probably because you don't read it. They obviously have new series they want to put in there, and Bleach is taking a spot that prevents a new series from coming through. WSJ will not be failing once Bleach ends, that's for sure.
Not being given a chance? W-what?! How, exactly, would you define over 200 chapters worth, if that's not "being given a chance"? That's longer than many series even get at all! Shokugeki for one has gone through numerous arcs by now and isn't at the 200 chapter stage. Nisekoi in its entirety has had a little over 200 chapters as well. What, are they to give Bleach a blank cheque so to speak, because Ambimunch decrees that anything less isn't enough? You have to be wilfully ignorant to not see that Bleach has been very much dragged out for years, 200 chapters should be more than enough to tell one arc and end a series off, if an author isn't capable of it then they're simply not very good when it comes down to it.
Ho ho, now this is rich. Let's just break this down shall we?
Firstly, good for you. Secondly, for this to be an injustice Kubo would have to have had a clear plan throughout this entire arc and then not stalled whatsoever throughout it - this has clearly not been the case. It shouldn't take 3 months to tell a small fight, for instance. The only injustice here is that other, largely better series get less time to end when Bleach has been given so much and Kubo just didn't use it all properly. It's actually quite a skill - to be able to tell so much less with so much more content at your disposal.
Honestly, the only oone here who needs to "deal with" anything is you. That is to say, you need to deal with the fact (emphasis on that seeing as you seem to be misusing that word) that Kubo hasn't made good enough use of his time and the series is ending. Simple as that. Suck it up, buttercup.
Funny, because I could say the exact same about you. You haven't actually provided a single argument, or a fact, you've just spewed out some conspiracy theories, called them facts and demanded we all just accept them as so. You actually haven't provided a single point here, not on why Kubo deserves more time or why people are wrong for saying he is to blame. You've just attacked them and then told them they're wrong, you're right and they should just accept that for a fact. Honestly, I'm surprised the moderators haven't barged their way into this by now and shut down this discussion. I guess it is just another example of how incompetent the sites moderators are. I would understand if you were a subscriber, because subscribers seem to get held to different rules than the rest of us - for instance, no matter how civil you are, if you happen to get into an argument with a subscriber, and the subscriber in question happens to be angry and throws insults at you, you'll find you're the one who gets their posts deleted and you're the one who gets told to "chill out" simply for defending yourself, while subscribers get to be racist, sexist and whatever without consequence. I suppose actual moderation is too big an ask for them though - that would require competency after all, and not some hand-wriggling and appeasing subscribers where possible. I've said it before, but these forums really do go further and further down the shitter every day. I'd be annoyed if it wasn't so pathetic, but I guess now as long as subscribers aren't getting disagreed with, civilly or not, they see no use in actually doing their jobs. Not that I'm complaining mind, but this seems like the kind of thing they would butt in on for no reason other than to flex those moderation muscles of theirs to show that somehow they're still here and still "relevant" no matter how unwanted their presence may actually be.* *Off topic and not particularly aimed at you K11chi or you Ambimuch. Also, to note how unsurprising it would be if this comment got deleted, or edited for me, or if I was warned for criticising the shockingly poor moderators here. Because, surprise surprise, they can't handle criticism either, preferring to completely shut it down instead. |
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Somewhere
Posts: 361 |
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Ambimunch: This lashing out at WSJ and saying that it's doomed naturally leads to the following question: In the event of WSJ collapsing and losing its top spot in the near future, who's the winner? That is, who ends up at the top of the heap of manga magazines?
I'll throw you a bone and say what I'll be checking your answer for: 1. Your evaluation of the current health of magazines 2. If you pick an answer, which series you point out as the reason(s) to think this magazine will become the new king of the hill. There is a trap here. There are a couple of answers that come to my mind for which I can point out that you're employing double standards, further strengthening my suspicion that you're bouncing back and forth between stages 1 and 2 of grief. Also, free hint: Despite the fact that Shingeki no Kyojin is the 2nd best selling series in the industry, the magazine it runs in is actually nowhere near position to overtake many of its competitors (as far as circulation goes). And I'd be remiss to not allow the "None of the above; by the time WSJ collapses, the manga anthology industry as we know it will have been permanently crippled by the various developments of the 21st century" answer. |
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Ambimunch
Posts: 2012 |
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@CelestialEmpress - read my response to the user above you, we already went over it. (satirical response to a random outburst)
Somehow you've deluded yourself into thinking that if you don't like the manga then everyone doesn't like it. Enough people were perfectly fine with Bleach.. Refer to the above discussions on my opinion of "pulling the plug" versus "how they pulled it".
Then you answered your question yourself, Bleach is pulling its weight. It isn't a bestseller, but it outperforms hundreds of ongoing manga in existence and isn't staying alive at a loss. Sure, they wanna replace it, then why not give it an extra month or two to end properly... Well, guess what, there always needs to be a manga at the bottom. By this logic they should replace a manga series every few months.. because you'know, it's at the bottom. Again, you are arguing something else entirely, I am fine with Bleach ending, I disagree with how WSJ went about booting it. No warning, no heads up, nothing - it's like the executives had one simultaneous period that day and their mood swing lead to a sudden decision. Actually, I already mentioned earlier how this decision didn't occur overnight, which supports my issue with how they intentionally screwed the series by not informing the author it would be booted.
Refer to the post above, one mentioning sarcasm. It's a good idea to read other posts before mentioning something that was already picked apart.
Stalled? Sorry, I can't take you seriously with a bias statement like that. So here's the deal haha, buddy, I would be willing to bet money right now with you that Kubo has a clear plan how Bleach is meant to end. Just a month ago we were getting to the climax with all the set up plot threads about to be sequentially addressed - this was discussed on every major Bleach forum, people were excited since we were approaching the resolution. Bleach had the same pacing as in the arrancar arc, no different. And listen, a fight can take as long as it needs to take, I'm curious which fight you're referring to? Or did you just generalize everything..? As for part two, "largely better series" WAIT... Before you go further, go read up on objectivity and biases. Not wasting my time with that statement right there. Good for you, I don't care what your favorite series are, don't waste my time.
And you, buddy, need to deal with the FACT (all caps, just for you, enjoy) that plenty of people are upset and unhappy with what WSJ is doing. Guess what, that's their opinions, the series they enjoyed got screwed due to corporate politics, and they have the right to express their dissatisfaction. Understand that your opinion does not impose anything on the opinions of others, accept this FACT (see, I did it again), make friends with it, and go outburst your frustration on a concrete wall - cause what WSJ did was a d!ck move, an unprofessional move, and upset many people.
Go re-read the multiple times I stated that WSJ acted unprofessionally towards Kubo by not officially giving him the heads up a few months in advance rather than 4 weeks - that way such a long series could have wrapped up better and not upset the fanbase this manga had for over a decade. Are you autistic? Do you honestly need an explanation why forcing a 15 year old running manga to end in the middle of its arc in a few chapters is a d!ck move?
Stop moaning. We are here to discuss the end of Bleach, not to hear your whining. Go cry somewhere else. |
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5510 Location: Mexico |
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One last point I want to make -even though this whole discussion is pointless by now- is about the claim that "even if they gave him one more quarter, he would've extended it longer". He might've, true, but in all likeliness he wouldn't. Because there was only the final villain left and with one more quarter, it would've had the right time to finish that fight and tie the important loose ends (we were never going to see all those other bankais, Kubo proved he didn't care about those when he had Hisagi one-shotted TWICE and wrote Shinji off for no reason in the fight against Gerard). And with that extra quarter he would've fulfilled the 5 years-worth of story he had planned. He did drag things longer than they needed -there were so many useless plot points this arc from the beginning- but he was in no way taking longer than he said he would from the start. It wasn't a matter of letting it run forever and see if it ever caught on again, the manga would've ended naturally in 20 more chapters at most even in spite of Kubo's glacial pace. That they cut it off at this point while giving Toriko the chance to continue further and have a more conclusive wrap, is what I find insulting and unfair about this whole thing
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Ambimunch
Posts: 2012 |
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@CrowLia
Yes, exactly this. Things were wrapping up and such an abrupt end did not need to happen. SJ created artificial drama with this, Bleach was ending in 2016 either way. Any weekly reader was aware of it (go watch older chapter reviews on YT or read older forum discussions and see how everyone in unison were saying Bleach is almost over). The plug needed to be have been pulled earlier, that would have spoken for itself and would have been clear that SJ no longer wanted Bleach - but pulling it now, when we're almost done anyways, just created artificial drama and is disrespectful at this stage of the game. |
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Monster Hunter
Posts: 335 |
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How about every fight with each of Yhwach's elite guards for one Pernida Parnkgjas: Ch635-644 10 chapters from beginning of fight to end no breaks Lille Barro: Ch 645-654 10 chapters from beginning of fight to end no breaks Askin Nakk Le Vaar: Ch656-658 and 662-666 from beginning of fight to end of fight 8 chapters to defeat Gerard Valkyrie: Ch 655, 658-661, 667-671, 680 11 chapters from beginning of fight to when Yhwach killed him by taking his power back. I have decided not to even go back to the other fights in this arc. 39 chapters for 4 fights to finish up that is atrocious. That is by definition stringing the story along with how many times he kept the fake out defeat turn around in each of those fights.
Let me ask you how do you know Shueisha just randomly pulled the plug on Kubo? Do you have access to their inner company conversations? Do you have an inside source at the company that has told you this? If you do I would love to see it because everything you have spouted is speculation. How is what your saying any different then what we have said is that Kubo has been stringing the story along and Shueisha got sick of it and told him to end the manga. How do we know he wasn't told months ago to end the manga and he refused to listen and just continuing along at his own pace. You are the one with this whole conspiracy theory that Shueisha deliberately sabotaged him with no proof other then your own belief.
Hi pot have you ever seen a mirror before? Calling me childish when you insult others with derogatory terms when they have a differing opinion then your own. Maybe you shouldn't refer to others as childish when you are acting quite childish. |
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Ambimunch
Posts: 2012 |
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Dude, these are the elite warriors. The four guards that protect the main villain of the arc, the Quincy equivalent of the Captains, they deserved full fights and then some. These are not "random fights". Wow
Manga get announced that they're ending. Look at Naruto, it got the year it would end in announced, and then the months left etc. We didn't hear anything about Bleach ending aside from this arc being the last, and the progression of the manga's story. Then one day we learned we have a month left.. It is also evident in the change in pacing of the last few chapters ever since the "ending" announcement. Did you see how rushed it is? The pacing of these chapters is unnatural, long time readers can tell that this isn't Kubo's regular writing progression.
Hi pot. I reply with insults back at insults thrown at me, and I refrain from using cursed language. Want me to bring up every cancerous jab thrown at me by you and your friends? And, mind you, I manage to keep on topic -_- And also, you forgot to quote where your friend insulted the moderators of this site. You should quote and bold it, they'd wanna read it. There is a whole paragraph on it, he also brings subscribers into the matter - completely unrelated to the discussion at hand. Very on topic. |
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Monster Hunter
Posts: 335 |
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10 chapters straight for one fight is way to freaking long. Your wasting time with that even the fight with the main villain going on that long is becoming too much. Much better mangas have fights that don't even go half that long even with final bosses Yu Yu Hakasho, Fullmetal Alchemist, Ruroni Kenshin, HunterxHunter, etc... Yet Kubo kept doing it over and over again with the same thing happening every time. The villains and heroes kept going back and forth with they looked defeated then turn it around with a new move then around it went again.
Naruto was officially announced it was ending 5 weeks before it ended. Much less then your idea that supposedly months in advance we learn they are ending. How do you know that Kubo didn't keep stringing the editors along saying the story was going to end in 2 more months. Then a couple of weeks later told them give me 2 more months and again and again. All the while he continued at his own pace thinking they would never up and tell him they will cancel the manga if he doesn't finish. Unless you have proof your theory is no more credible then mine.
I actually don't know the guy at all so not true and derogatory term does not mean curse word. You called him/her autistic which is inferring mental handicap aka "retarded" which yes is a derogatory term. |
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Somewhere
Posts: 361 |
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Are you being facetious or....? That's what they do. Like, 2-3 series getting axed every 2-3 months is the usual practice for WSJ. The current period in between cancellation rounds is just abnormally long, if it's giving you some other impression. |
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