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KanjiiZ wrote:

What other requirements does it need to be called a loli show?

A big Las Vegas style song and dance number where all the characters line up and sing about the anime being loli. Lots of feather boa's, sparkly outfits, high kicking and such....

Yeah, I think that would do it.

Pants wrote:

KanjiiZ wrote:

QQ, Erin called my anime loli. Stop being such a *expletive* about it man. The show is full of little girls. What other requirements does it need to be called a loli show?

So you think Totoro is lolicon? Laughing

Having young female characters doesn't make a show creepy, that's just blatant over-reacting.

Kiki's Delivery Service must be loli, too ... I mean ... you see her bloomers. Absolutely disgusting. I can just see all the old perverted Japanese men fapping to that. I mean, she was wearing a sleeveless shirt and in bed when she was sick. Oh, and don't get started on Spirited Away! Little girl takes a bath with an old man spirit - ewww it was so creepy!!!! Wink

Bored_Ming wrote:

KanjiiZ wrote:

What other requirements does it need to be called a loli show?

A big Las Vegas style song and dance number where all the characters line up and sing about the anime being loli. Lots of feather boa's, sparkly outfits, high kicking and such....

Yeah, I think that would do it.

Still wouldn't be as creepy as Toddlers & Tiaras.

erinfinnegan wrote:

jenthehen wrote:

This sounds like a lolimergency!!! Wink

I lolled.

Don't you mean you loli'ed?

erinfinnegan wrote:

vashfanatic wrote:

Of course, it can be damn hard to determine the true audience.

In the world of television, it's not hard to determine a show's audience. Television, much more so than film, is a numbers game. I can't be exactly sure of how it works in Japan, but in America, TV is all about ratings and precision demographics. Once Conan O'Brian gave an example of his ratings reports, saying that they went into precise details like "Men aged 30-32 changed the channel during these thirty seconds of your monologue."

As anime fans we're consuming something that wasn't intended for us. But as someone who has worked in television I cannot stop thinking about the intended audience.

A quick check shows Gunslinger Girl's manga predates the anime by about a year, and that it's serialized in the shōnen magazine Monthly Comic Dengeki Daioh.
By definition as a shōnen work it's primary intended audience is boys under the age of 15. Does that stop older men from buying? Certainly not.
When the anime was green-lit, were they expecting nothing but high-schoolers to pony up for the DVDs? Hardly.
But in the case of Gunslinger Girl, I also suspect at least one unit was purchased by a Gun Aficionado, who shelled out for the opportunity to see Henrietta's Fabrique Nationale P90 PDW, and not necessarily Henrietta herself.

erinfinnegan wrote:

fireaxe wrote:

This part I really don't get. What's so creepy about a young girl in love with a much older man, for example, her teacher?

That's not creepy. What's creepy is a teacher enjoying stories about students falling in love with their teachers. I'd be creeped out if I walked into class and my high school teacher was reading a magazine called "Student/Teacher Love Stories".

It's the intended audience that creeps me out (The American audience is not the intended audience. )... and even then, the Japanese audience creeps me out much less than the creator himself, or moreso, the manga editors and TV producers who wanted to push a show to an audience that's going to start making and consuming loads of porno doujinshi about it.

Somehow I think the porno doujinshi (in general) at Comiket is much less egregious because it is not intended for mass distribution like mainstream magazines or television. I wish Gunslinger Girl had remained a porno doujinshi and not turned into a massive franchise whose modestly successful DVDs are now available worldwide.

You really believe that Yu Aida woke up one morning in early 2002, figured there wasn't enough porn of female minors and took it upon himself to step up and supply a vehicle?

That's harsh.

Rule 34 is still rule 34...and as you yourself pointed out (with Pokemon):
There. Is. NOTHING. Sacred.

Rime of the Ancient Otaku wrote:

By definition as a shōnen work it's primary intended audience is boys under the age of 15.[/b]

But Gintoki buys every shonen releases even though he's like 35 years old.

a review should be based soley on the show with maybe a tiny pinch of opinion. As a consumer, it would be fool hardy for me to buy a show simply because erin "feels" a certain way about it. I read reviews to find out about the product, not about some reviewers personal thoughts on the matter. That kind of information belongs on blogs, not on the front page of such an amazing site.

to summarize, should reviews be unbiased? bringing your own biases and emotions into a review clouds the source material and serves as a hinderence to your audience. The people who benefit from shelf life are those who's feelings, thoughts, ect... match up with erin's. But what about the rest of us?

having such opinianated reviews is alienating an audience who's primary focus is learning which dvd's are worth our hard earned money and time.

and sorry for that being so long winded.

LemonCookies wrote:

They go too far in terms of what? There's nothing legally wrong with either show, and if you don't like them, then don't watch them or waste other people's time by telling us your irrelevant opinions.

If you consider others opinions to be 'irrelevant' then why are you even reading a review? Or this forum for that matter? If you like whatever show, you're totally free to watch it. Not Erin, nor anyone else here is stopping you. So go ahead and watch it. Who cares what everyone else so called 'irrelevant opinion' of it is.

On the other hand though, if you do decide to read a review or enter a forum, well obviously both are intended as a means for people to convey and discuss their opinions to others who are interested in them. Therefore, you can't really fault people for sharing their opinion that a show is creepy or crosses the line.

Rime of the Ancient Otaku wrote:

Lots of awesome text

You've just summed up everything I was trying to say, but I was too busy bitching/being offended to present it as clearly as you have.

Good job!

ikillchicken wrote:

LemonCookies wrote:

They go too far in terms of what? There's nothing legally wrong with either show, and if you don't like them, then don't watch them or waste other people's time by telling us your irrelevant opinions.

If you consider others opinions to be 'irrelevant' then why are you even reading a review? Or this forum for that matter? If you like whatever show, you're totally free to watch it. Not Erin, nor anyone else here is stopping you. So go ahead and watch it. Who cares what everyone else so called 'irrelevant opinion' of it is.

On the other hand though, if you do decide to read a review or enter a forum, well obviously both are intended as a means for people to convey and discuss their opinions to others who are interested in them. Therefore, you can't really fault people for sharing their opinion that a show is creepy or crosses the line.

actually, opinions by themselves can be faulty reasoning. case in point...if I say I hate president obama but never tell you the reason why, what would be your justification for trusting me?

likewise with the review, erin gave alot of reasoning for why she hated/liked/ect... gunslinger girls 2 but her opinions of it where lacking. It felt like there was alot of confirmation bias in where somebody focuses just on the information that conforms their theory or opinion.

so yes, being too opinionated can be detrimental for the purpose of reviewing a product.

erinfinnegan wrote:

You might not think this show is sexual, but one google image search later and you're looking at child porn. It may have been accidental, but what if you find out you like it?! I hate to think of massively successful lolicon shows creating loads of new fans of child pornography, intentionally or not.

You could probably say the same about Pokemon (with safeseach turned off), but Pokemon's original audience wasn't the same as the audience who buys the most pornography.

How many shows involving characters under the age of 18 can you think of that do pass the "non-SafeSearch Google image test"...?

Regardless of source, there will always be people who "take it that additional step." Some refer to it as "Rule 34."

The accusation "makes new fans of child pornography" reminds me a lot of the "Japanese animation, it's all porn," only selectively applied. Sailor Moon? "Makes new fans of child pornography." Magical Girl Nanoha? "Makes new fans of child pornography." Card-Captor Sakura? "Makes new fans of child pornography." I know I've come across more online (in quantity and "squik strength") involving those three titles, than anything related to GSG.

If you look for sex in something, you're pretty much guaranteed to find it. Freud is the defining example for this; redefine the motivational energy of human life as sexual desire, and of course you're going to see everything as an expression of sexuality.

So... go into a show like GSG expecting to find evidences of sexuality, and you'll find them. Walk down a street with a set of "Freudian goggles" on, and suddenly that boy holding onto his mother's hand, smiling up to her and saying "I love you, mommy" could very well be on his way to a full-blown Oedipus complex...

Now, this is not to say that the matters of "human desire" aren't present in GSG (a story about, ultimately, humans, with all these conflicting elements that make us human in the first place on top of their unique situation), but perhaps we can take a moment to turn down the "Freudian goggles" a bit?

Let's take a moment to look at the "guys and little girls" aspect.

As Yu Aida is (most likely) male, it would make sense to write the handlers as males, as the author could then write the handlers from a perspective he's more familiar and can identify with more readily. Instead of trying to cross genders and write from the perspective of a female handler, the approach becomes one of how a male handler would react, with a corral of male handlers to show different reactions to the situation and how they could work out (or not) over time. While Pinocchio (btw Erin, you did get the whole "doll" motif (especially the ED), right?) gives us an interesting comparison as the assassins go, Christiano and Pinocchio were even more awkward trying to sort themselves out with how they regarded each other. A series of that instead? No thanks.

Now, there are a number of logical reasons for these "cybernetic killing machines" to be little girls ("the cybernetic treatment works better with children," "people don't expect that girl to really be a killing machine," etc.), but I'll stick with my gut and simply say that Yu Aida probably prefers drawing young girls to, say, young boys.

All things told, I'm glad we have GSG and not GSB.

We have to remember that not only are the girls in unusual circumstances, but so are their handlers. An essential part of the series are the views and personalities of the handlers. Not everyone can handle being given custody of an orphan ("ward of the state"), with the responsibility for the welfare, training, and effective use of this orphan in your job of tracking down/killing/etc. "enemies of the state." Especially given that these orphans tend to come from rough pasts (even if mostly blocked from conscious recall), spoiler[have a limited life-span due to said cybernetics], have a combination of drugs and brain-washing constantly affecting their behavior, have lethal super-human abilities and training in killing and are still pretty much considered "works in progress"... all while still also being human, and young ones at that.

So we have handlers with an odd situation to work with in the first place, individuals who are faced with issues from being a patchwork of cybernetic parts... Why not throw gender issues into the mix? For bonus points, have the "conditioning" that ensures loyalty to the organization (a safety intended so these trained killing agents don't turn on their creators) muddle emotions and motives to the point where even the most level-headed and lightly-conditioned of the girls (Triela) can't even say for certain how much of her feelings for her handler are from the conditioning or may be something else.

For further bonus points, spoiler[remember that Henrietta has had her uterus removed.] Makes the whole "nature vs. nurture" more interesting spoiler[when hormones are administered medically].

Jose: constantly trying to figure out where to balance "close" with "distance" with Henrietta (the most emotional of the girls), spoiler[figuring how she may/may not fit in in terms of dealing with the loss of his own little sister to a terrorist bombing]
Jean: detaching himself from Rico as much as he can, operating under a personal vendetta to kill as many Padania as possible, dealing with his own emotional baggage (spoiler[Talking with the ghost of your dead sister? Woah man, not even Jose has baggage like that]).
Marco: working with Angelica spoiler[while watching the Agency's treatments slowly destroy her since she was the prototype and has the shortest lifespan].
Hilshire: watching over Triela spoiler[after having originally saved her from being the subject of a snuff film, with the complications of that whole situation]. Fortunately, Triela's one of the more stable of the girls.
Raballo: trained Claes, tried to figure out how to handle Claes' conditioned loyalty while trying to encourage her to think/act independently. spoiler[Started to question the whole cyborg program. Note the use of the past tense...]
Lauro: distanced himself from Elsa as much as possible, treating her even abusively at times. spoiler[Again, notice the past tense...]

Messed up people, in messed up situations, trying to muddle through the best they can, according to their own viewpoints regarding justice, morality, etc. These are the kinds of situations that can bring out interesting aspects of humanity, which is why I enjoy GSG. At the end of the day, it's not everyone's cup of tea for any number of reasons. I have a roommate who refuses to ever watch GSG since it breaks his "little girls with guns" rule...

EDIT: Corrected myself about Henrietta...

I think the crux of the argument the GSG fans are trying to make is that, clearly, there is so much to analyze and discuss about the plot, characterization, psychological aspects, etc. that it is grossly unfair to imply that it's a throw-away fan-pandering lolicon show. Although I often defend the meritorious aspects of Kodomo no Jikan, I admit that a great deal of that manga / anime is simply lolicon pandering. I just can't make that same admission with GSG. The two are ENTIRELY different.

Of course, Erin is allowed her opinion that she simply didn't like it and was creeped out by the darker psychological and sexual implications of the plot situation, but we fans of the show are just trying to counter that opinion. It would be terrible if somebody read this review and refused to watch GSG on the basis of it being offensive in a "loli" way, because a lot of people aren't going to get that at all. GSG (season 1) was one of the very first anime series I watched ... I didn't even realize that "lolicon" was a thing, and I got no "creepy" vibes from the cyborg/handler interaction.

I mean, the series COULD go as far as Kodomo no Jikan with Henrietta trying to get sexual with Jose, for example, but it doesn't go anywhere near there. In fact, it's not always even clear whether the love they feel is romantic, familial, or something else. spoiler[Holding hands is the further the anime version goes, and that's something that father/daughter would do, no problem.] MANGA SPOILERS: spoiler[Triela does steal a kiss from Hillshire later in the series while he is asleep, but the emotional turmoil that leads up to it justifies the action - plus, she looks old enough by that point. And Petrushka, the new Cyborg, is about 16 or so, so the relationship she has with her handler is by no means "lolicon"]

erinfinnegan wrote:

LemonCookies wrote:

But tell me, if not pedophiles, what is she calling people who may happen to like the show?

I'm calling people who happen to like this show anime fans. Obviously a lot of people like it.

This is what the political talking heads refer to as the "non-denial denial", right?

erinfinnegan wrote:

If you haven't read Laura Mulvey's essay "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" you ought to (I had to read it in no fewer than four undergrad film courses). If lolicon (in Japan) is about the gaze of the viewer on the girls, Gunslinger Girl is about the gaze of the girls on their handlers. And the girls are in love with their handlers. There is just way too much blushing in this show about professional assassins. (Mulvey's essay will tell you all about the gaze of the viewer. Turns out watching any film is kinda dirty in a Freudian way.)

OK, you didn't directly accuse people who like GSG of having lolicon issues. But it takes very little reading between the lines to get there. "Turns out watching [GSG] is [about sex]." After 3 paragraphs discussing the definition of lolicon as it applies to GSG, how are we supposed to read that, if we happen to enjoy the show? Seems to me the most-obvious reading is "GSG fans are lolicons". (Maybe I've caught that persecution complex that's going around, though... how should I have read that last line, in the context of this review?)

If you only meant to discuss the "gaze of the girls on their handlers", then you should have completely removed the last two parenthetical sentences. Or your editor should have removed them for you.

I don't expect a completely-sterile synopsis review, but a review that insults its readers deserves all the reactions it gets. Including this one.

erinfinnegan wrote:

You might not think this show is sexual, but one google image search later and you're looking at child porn. It may have been accidental, but what if you find out you like it?! I hate to think of massively successful lolicon shows creating loads of new fans of child pornography, intentionally or not.

...especially when you follow it up in the comments with this claptrap. Now we're not only lolicons, but you think a random subset of us are potential felons of the worst sort, who just need a push? Thanks. Thanks a whole lot. (And I endorse the earlier "doujin isn't the licensed product", "it's just rule 34, it even applies to pokemon", and "don't play the 'violent videogames create schoolyard mass-murderers' card" comments about this line.)

The sad thing is, I like your reviews when you're not playing morality police. A personal touch instead of the "book report" style is nice. But a slap in the face like this makes me wish Bamboo were back behind the wheel, and you weren't writing for this site anywhere. I shouldn't be angry when I finish reading a review, especially when I'm not slightly miffed about the reviewer's opinions of the product, but outright insulted by the reviewer's opinion of me.

Tone it down in the future. Or if you can't see the insults you're unintentionally writing, get your editors to tone it down for you. The space taken up by those three leading paragraphs could have been used for something much more interesting, as JenTheHen said in the post above this one, and others have said further upthread.

Um, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to ask a non-loli question, but is DBZ Kai just edited and remastered or is there new animation(not counting the OP and ED). I'm trying to decide on DVD or blu ray version. If it's just the old animation upscaled, I'll stick with the DVD.

Zac wrote:

It has a very large audience because people enjoy reading it. In terms of numbers, Erin has not lost a single reader during the transition and is in fact growing the audience. That is what we who work in the editorial world refer to as "a success".

I can easily see why numbers may have grown since she took over though. Most of the weekly reviews she did created some sort of controversy, and you can get a pretty heated discussion in the talkback thread. Personally i don't particularly like her writing, nor do i agree alot with her reviews (i am not into the whole overly sensitive to perceived creepy content and the awkward attempts at justification later on), but i make sure that every week i check out the talkback. Because like this week, it sure is a good one with some people really riled up, and others defending her viewpoints. If there are others like me who like to watch from the sidelines, besides the ones getting offended and the ones defending the writer's expressions, it is sure to be a succesful column indeed. Very Happy

So please, do carry on guys !

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