Forum - View topicNEWS: Manga Aggregator to Close as OpenManga Plans Launch
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kurosabato
Posts: 28 |
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Well, I think It would be the same. Those sites don't have or have a faulty rating system. Ex. MF Top 3 Rating DAN-DOH Average 5.00 / 5 out of 6 total votes. BUS GAMER Average 5.00 / 5 out of 21 total votes. TOKI NO SHUGOMONO Average 5.00 / 5 out of 11 total votes. And this change every minute, as more people vote "5" to other manga. But if you see the TOP view .... NARUTO Average 4.48 / 5 out of 6617 total votes. I think if the rating system was a good one, the top views and the top rating it would be almost the same. |
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loka
 Posts: 373 Location: Pittsburgh, PA |
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It's rather depressing that just my manga collection is over 50% the size of Carnegie Library's. And I'm not much of a collector compared to a lot of manga fans. Libraries are not the answer.
Dengeki Daisy is not on shelves yet, so of course it is speculation. I am not trying to defend aggregation sites, but explain to you why scanlations exist. You are underestimating the number of people out there who do not read scanlations of licensed manga. (or rather: none of the scanlated series they follow are licensed.) For every example like Children of the Sea, there are thousands of scanlations for unknown series. In some cases, we are the reason why series becomes available in English. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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I know why the majority of scanlations exist- people are impatient ["I can't wait to read it!"] and greedy ["There's not enough out there to read!", which looks to be your reason. Why not just reread what you already have while you wait for new books? I have a manga collection of about 600+ volumes, and there's still a large backlog I have to get around to, and new books I'm buying regularly]. I just don't really see how that's a valid justification. I know there's some peopel who don't read scanlations of licensed manga, but they are in the minority, which is why I can't really support or condone scanlations in anways. And like I mentioned in another trhead, would it be that hard to import the manga in question and just print out a text translation you can read alongisde it? |
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loka
Posts: 373 Location: Pittsburgh, PA |
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What if I told you that, in my opinion, Otaku no Musume-san is better than Genshiken was. Or that Choku! is the funniest thing I can remember reading. Doesn't that interest you? Otaku no Musume-san had a huge following four years ago. They've had plenty of time to license it; not so sure we should expect it at this point. What naturally happens when you read all of the 10/10 and 9/10, and even 8/10 manga out there that is licensed. Rather than lower your standards, you want to continue reading the best that has been / is being published in Japan. I admit there really isn't any excuse that can counter the "learn Japanese" card. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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It vaguely interests me, but I just sort of file it in the back of my head for when it eventually gets licensed, or when I come across some Japanese eds or French eds [I bought 4 or so vols of FB in french long before TP picked it up, then finished out my collection w/the english ed.] So yeah, it interests me, but I'm not going to steal someonesles work just because I want to read it. I can wait, and it's not like there isn't a bajillion comics and manga coming out every Wednesday across North America- my time is occupied enough just by the comics/manga/anime I buy! And even then, there's stuff besides comics/manga/anime I can do if I ever run out of manga/anime/comics to read [Xena Warrior Princess boxsets, ahoy! Reruns of Doctor Who on cable! Endless Simpsons reruns!] Add in the local library, and WEBCOMICS [which are free, online, and suppoort the artists], and yeah, no real need to read manga online. Why don't people just read webcomics? It's everything you like about scanlations, but directly supports the artists involved, and theyr'e nice enough to give it to you for free. So yeah, it's not really a priority for me. As for 9/10 or 10/10 manga, I dunno, what someonelse thinks is a horrible manga might just be exactly what I like (everyone has their own tastes), so I keep my options open, read reviews, but make my own decisions when I see something i'm interested in picking up. I'd rather buy a mildly horrible manga (which I'd probably shrug at, and not get the next one of, maybe resell, though I haven't come across any manga bad enough to resell yet) then steal the best manga ever. |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I love you Paploo, but you're starting to beat a dead horse. You can never convince some scanlation readers, or scanaltors themselves, that they're in the wrong. I really hate aggregator sites, but as a former scanlator myself, the majority of SCANLATIONS do not exist because people are greedy and can't wait, and they are NOT licensed titles. The majority of scanlations exist because fans of an unlicensed series want to create a fanbase and share whatever title it is they currently like. LICENSED scanlations exists for the reasons you state. I haven't scanlated anything outside of doujinshi for over five years, but the "small percentage" your mentioning are actually a large community that works together. For example you've got a couple hundred scanlation groups out there doing non-licensed releases, and the groups form a sort of union. They even work together on projects quite often. Someone goes "I found this awesome comic in ::insert magazine:: I'd love to share, and if all their translators are busy, they go to the other groups and offer them up to any other person free and willing to look. It's actually a great little community, and they, for the most part, ostrasize any group that doesn't remove a title once licensed. When a title is licensed, there's rejoicing, and feelings along the lines of "my job is done! everyone, go buy the English release!" These groups hate the aggregator sites, and consider them to be the equivalent of scanlation sellers that popped up on eBay about 5 years ago. Then the groups worked together to report those sellers whenever they popped up, but the aggregator sites are harder for them to deal with. These scanlators are a gift to the fan community, and two of my friends I personally worked on with on scanlations have moved on to professional work in Yen Press and Viz. They love their job, and they actually (one of them is in a position to suggest titles for license) sometimes suggest titles for license that they've discovered through scanlations. You can claim that these original groups don't follow the "honor" code I mentioned, but you'd be wrong. What happens are these newer licensed groups pop up to fill the demand of up to date chapters, and they're annoying. They don't follow the "code" the communities started about 10 years ago. But sadly there's nothing we can do as they drag pride scanlators attain through their work through the mud. There are just some series that will NEVER make it over here. For example, the manga title my group used to scanlate: Mythical Detective Loki by Sakura Kinoshita, and eventually her other title: Tactics. When we started it didn't even have an anime to go along with it. We saw a title we loved and thought our friends would love. We then started a small community dedicated to the title. Then along came the anime, and we had a huge boost in readership. We promoted the crap out of items to buy. Sakura Kinoshita created a new art book? We'd post links to it on amazon.jp and yesasia. A new volume came out in Japan? Links to it to buy, along with our text translations for fans to read along with their own coimic (we had lots of requests for this). BTW, those text translations you're supporting over scanlations are a grey area much like scanlations that are technically illegal. We even had at least five other scanlation groups of other languages ask us to use our translations so they could release it for their language. Then along came ADV, who released the anime, and we were happy. ADV had a manga division, and it looked like they would even license the title. We promoted the anime to our readers, and when the announced the license, we stopped scanlating. Some readers complained, so to keep the community going we switched to scanlating doujinshi (all of which we linked directly to the circle websites and directed how to buy doujinshi on yahoo actions Japan) Then comes ADV's manga, and we discover it's only the sequal series, something we never even came close to scanlating yet. People clamored for us to continue with the scanlations, but we didn't budge. The license had been bought, even if they were starting with the wrong series. Then after two volumes, ADV manga died; both Tactics and Mythical Detective Loki were discontinued. But we continued not to budge. Instead we got a bunch in the community to start writing to Tokyopop when it was announced Tokyopop was rescuing some of the titles. They only picked up Tactics (I assume it's because of the Loki manga's age and art style), and fans continued to beg us to continue scanlating. We didn't. Instead we directed people to import Chung Yi's Mythical Detective Loki releases since they were being released in English in Singapore. OMFG the pains it took to import those releases. One member of our group who lived in Singapore went so far in the community to take orders for people since Chung Yi releases were hard to order from North America, but that eventually went dead beause it was too much hard work on the girl. But we didn't go back to scanlating the title because there was a chance it'd get saved by another company. Yes, we may have broken some foriegn copyright laws by scanlating the title, but you will never EVER convince me that we did the license more harm than good. We fed a small niche community of fans, we spread knowledge of the property, and a lot I know personally in the community imported tons of stuff from Japan. Most everyone who spoke with us and commented on our community had bought the Japanese release of the volumes either on their own or through the links we posted, and a lot of people owned the artbooks. Just about everyone in it owned all of ADV's DVDs. The manga was pretty much released stillborn due to ADV's mishandling of it here in the US, but the fan community did what they could for it. The efforts of my scanlation group was purely out of love, and you can't tell me any of us didn't have the best interest of the property, or the manga-ka, at heart. To some it'd be misguided love, but still the feeling was there. Thankfully we were before the "age of aggregators", but that doesn't mean I don't start cussing up a storm when I go to an aggreator site and find the chapters my group scanlated on their site. What those people running those sites do are descipicble, and aren't doing a service to the actually fan community or the original license holders. Out of this little rant, I suppose what I'm getting at is scanlations have now become a major grassroots movement in creating fanbases in the US to products that otherwise would never come out in America. Yeah, there's a possibility that some titles would have been just as sucessful without them. Who knows what would have happened if Fruits Basket wasn't huge online via word of mouth. Long before Tokyopop licensed the title, I was reading scanlations. I think the scanlations were even up to around 10 volumes, fully availble online, before Tokyopop had a sort of "suggest what title you'd like to see us release" campaign where I remember all the readers of the scanlations were going to, spamming it with "FRUITS BASKET". Scanlations continued after Tokyopop licensed the thing, but that fact didn't stop it at all from becoming one of the best selling shoujo titles in America. Dejenki Daisy is now licensed, and honestly I was surprised. I thought I'd never see it make it over here for various reasons, and the scanlations had made it all the way to volume 4 before the license was announced. That however is not stopping everyone else I know who read and loved it from looking into pre-ordering the title. If you really love the title you're reading scanlated, you WILL buy the book for rereading, and just because reading an actual book is more fun. I own each and every volume of Gakuen Alice, but Tokyopop's speed is mind numbing with the Japanese release being a good 10+ volumes ahead. I buy Tokyopop's releases when they come out, but in order to not completely forget about the great little gem it is, I read the monthly chapter when it's released, scanlated. I don't go to an aggregator, I go directly to the community dedicated to the title. I do the same with Naruto and I preordered the volume that just came out, and I don't feel the least bit guilty for it. I have been reading Naruto since before Viz licensed it (I don't want to think about how long ago that was). Yeah, I could wait a couple months, but with me the title is already bought. Viz has already received over 600 dollars of my money for Naruto (oh man, I hate thinking about that, and we're not even addressing the Japanese imports I have). I have a Shonen Jump subscription I don't even read. I buy video games. I buy every format of the manga Viz releases with Naruto, edited or not, and heck I even bought that special hardback edition of Volume 1 released a year or two ago. The way I see it when I'm reading the latest chapter release of Naruto through scanlations is I'm already giving Viz all the money they're asking for it. I'm paying for the manga twice over with the volume purchases and Shonen Jump subscription. In fact, I'd be fully willing to pay it over a third time for an official chapter release within days of it being released in Japan. In concerns to me and fans like me, Viz is not losing money, Viz is just missing out on an extra stream of income. Yes, you can tell me to reread Naruto a zillion times while waiting instead of reading scanlations, but I'm a fast reader. A very fast reader. I've already re-read the thing I don't know how many times, just like I go back to re-reading just about each and every series of the 800+ manga I own. I even buy doujinshi, which sadly, Kishimoto won't get any money from. And you know what else? I'm a horrible impatient fan as well when it comes to my Western TV shows too. I download Doctor Who hours after it comes out in England because 1) I am shameless and really can't wait and 2) I hate that BBC-America cuts the show down to save on time, and 3) when I started doing it the Christmas specials wouldn't be released over here until July. I do not like my Christmas specials in July. But, while doing it I buy BBC's INSANELY expensive box sets, I buy the Doctor Who comic released by Image comics, I buy Daleks left and right, and I own a dispicable amount of toys that no 24 year old girl should be proud to own. I'm an example of the fan who feels they do their duty in buying the product while sampling the latest release via illegal means. If I were to ever get a lawsuit against me I highly doubt they'd be able to do anything to me because 1) I don't distribute and 2) by the time I got the notice I probably would already own the actual product, so the thing I downloaded previously would just be a digital copy of something I already bought, used for private viewing in my home. You will never convince fans like me we're in the wrong, and you'll never guilt trip us. Yeah, I really hate aggregator sites along with the fans that are watching all this stuff without buying crap, but people like that will always exist on the net. They're like roaches, they won't go away even if the publishers throw a nuclear bomb at them. Instead, we need to convince these people that they should buy something every once in a while while trying to take away the easy access to scanlations (aka aggregator sites). Yelling at them and trying to guilt trip them just won't work. As to the person who mentioned to me before that Pandora Hearts wasn't scanlated before licensed; just because the title escaped aggregator sites for so long doesn't mean it wasn't being scanlated. I was up to around volume four before Yen Press released the first volume. Hmm, I think I wrote a nice long rant giving people plenty to yell at me over. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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I suppose so, you can only say this stuff so many times before looking nutty. I used to overlook unlicensed scans because people were mostly polite about taking stuff down when the time came- it only really became an issue for me when the aggregators popped up and started making money off it illicitly, and some scanlators either teamed up with them to provide the series, or just ignored them rather then speaking out against unethical scanlation activities. I think I would probably rant a lot less about this stuff if ethical scanlation sites were the majority rather then a small minority [by minority, I mean in terms of online presence- most people reading scanlations nowadays do not see the ethical scanlators, they just see large batches of free stuff on sites like MangaFox], and if stuff like direct-scans of licensed books were nonexistant. It's gotten to the point where unfortunately people who did follow the rules and respect publishers wishes when they made fan translations are going to get caught up in this. It's like looking at a big lump of cancer and seeing some clean cells here or there- you have to get rid of the whole thing to get rid of the cancer even if some of the cells meant well. What was a neat underground thing has become this major issue- even stuff made under well-intentioned plans a few years ago when somethign was unlicensed then removed from the site dutifully once it was picked up will continue to be distributed on aggregators. I think it's because of the aggregators that scanlating something does it more harm then good right now- 5 years ago, it was a different time/place and it might of helped draw more attention, but now it just replaces any future product outright, and doesn't go away once one pops up. Companies don't sound to be targetting these scantlators, so hopefully after all is said and done, someday things can go back to a friendlier time. Anyhoo, my problems aren't with the folks who buy what they've downloaded/pirated, but the larger issue of those who don't, which makes the issues hard to overlook nowadays. I probably wouldn't be ranting so heavily about unlicensed stuff if the current issues w/aggregators wasn't around. That, and if you let one seemingly less offensive thing slip by, people will take you to task for having issues with the bigger monsters. I guess in the end it's all hard to peg right, and a long list of experiences that have just really soured me to seeing unlicensed stuff scanlated- I just really can't support it anymore, whatever good it used to do isn't really justifiable in the current market, though I see where your coming from and why you feel the ethical scanlators should be defended- I do agree they seem to have gotten caught in a big giant mess their more popular, less honest cousins have created. Though, basically it comes down to this http://okazu.blogspot.com/2010/05/my-point-of-view-on-scanlation.html Erika Friedman, as always, explains it better then I can. I've just gotten to a point, creatively and personally, where I just can't support any scanlations at all. Here's a good part about why today's market, and the one littlegreenwolf talks about, are different- the scanlations of 2010 are not being use in the same way of 2003, which is why I can't support/condone any of it. "As we change, the market changes, circumstances change, technology changes, it's sensible to have one's opinion change. Ten years ago, I was fully in support of scans. It was extremely unlikely that most of what fans read would ever get over here. Today, manga publishers are bringing over unheard of amounts of manga, which is good, and struggling with the market, which is bad. Go Comi!, CMX, Aurora, CPM, cutbacks at Viz...all of these are signs not that the publishers are losers, but that the growing audience for manga does not mean a growing market for manga. As a result of this change, I've come to the opinion that while I still understand the desire for scanlations and subs...I can no longer support them." My personal reasons- After you've drawn 600+ pages of comics and seen friends comics get scanned without their permission, it's hard to justify any kind of comics piracy, even wellintentioned stuff. Last edited by Paploo on Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:07 pm; edited 12 times in total |
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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But the OpenManga experiment is precisely an effort to capture what makes scanlation work except do it legally. Its not the existence of scanlations that hammers the manga market, its the online distribution and the fact that instead of dozens of enthusiasts viewing the scanlation its thousands of viewers who are originally on the site to watch a scanlation rip-off of a licensed title or a direct rip of a published title. |
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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I agree with Paploo on his points (likely hood of who is going to be on the site, reason why scanlations need to not be supported right now.)
In one essence it seem there is a segment of the fandom that wants to steal or kill the metaphorical horse that is trying to move the band wagon forward, this now includes some scanlators as well as these aggregation sites, unfortunately these groups are the most visible and thus they need to go, other "nobler" scanlators are now in the position of get on board or get out of the way, as they are now impeding as opposed to helping. (And even then I question how much help they were....) Some responses in this thread are convinced that this will fail, and I personally hope that there are not some "Robin Hoods" that will try to make it fail. But surprisningly the fans don't want to continue the "Wild West" analogy they are so enamored with, when applying it the internet, as if I recall correctly it was a capital offense to kill/steal someone's horse. There should be a move to make copyright infringement from civil crime to criminal crime (obviously it should not be a capital one, but the move is done to empower the police to investigate these acts within their areas.) Again it's easy to become a Tyrant when you say I'm doing it to help them, while trampling on their rights. At least summon the strength to ask first, instead of assuming it, as what is happening is that manga and anime are competing against a version of themselves that by all rights should not be, a version of themselves that is beginning to not care that artists and other creatives are being pushed away and that they should not be compensated for their efforts, a version of themselves that is willing to cheat, and doesn't care what happens. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Quote from Helen McCarthy, supreme Otaku, university prof and author of The Anime Encyclopedia on Erika's blog post I just linked to, that I think is really apt to everything we've been talking about on all these threads over the pasr few days-
"Helen said... Hi Erica, I'm aware I'm coming late to this discussion, but I've been having a similar discussion of my own over 'Pirates of the Anime Encyclopedia' (coming soon to a theatre near you, if we can just get Johnny Depp to sign for the Clements role... ) I'll try not to restate the obvious more than once, but it obviously needs restating: all piracy of material currently in copyright anywhere in the world is theft. You are taking something someone else has created, without their permission, and using it as you wish, to your personal gain. Before anyone repeats the argument that scanlators don't evereverevereverEVER do anything as dirty as working for profit, please consider that there are more forms of profit than money. Kudos in one's peer group, community status, connections, influence, a sense of righteousness, a Robin Hood complex - these are all solid gains. Scanlators are not Robin Hoods, stealing from the rich to give to the poor. We - English-speaking fans - are not 'poor' by any objective global measure. Steal or don't steal - it's your decision. But please, scanlators and users, have enough respect for yourself and others to recognise that your theft is not a social service or a human right. Own your choices and don't waste time trying to defend the indefensible. " |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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I'm getting tired of people painting the issue solely in black and white issues. Who needs nuance when you can blindly condemn everyone? Accusations of theft denial and "profit of egotism" strike me as red herrings when considering there are groups and scanlation readers out there, like myself, that have sizable collections -- and not just in English, but importing them in Japanese, as well. For example, is it JUST a petty, "indefensible" act that a group scanlates Hideki Arai's The World is Mine, a political epic as cinematic as Otomo's Akira manga, and that I imported all five Japanese omnibus volumes? And are there any serious manga fans (i.e. those that actively buy) that really liken the situation to a Robin Hood analogy? Seems more like a straw man to me.
I'm not trying to paint myself and the groups that target such series -- one's that are nigh-impossible to be licensed, if they ever will be -- as the majority, or deny that it is theft (or whatever the proper legal term is); however, this pompous finger-wagging, bleaching all of us to be the same, does NOT encourage compromise and understanding, and only further divides fandom. Both extreme sides -- the "free entitlement" crowd and the "every sin is equal" crowd -- need to tone down or stop their rhetoric. Suffice to say, I agree with littlegreenwolf. |
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erilot
Posts: 25 Location: INDIANA |
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From what I am reading around, seems like all online sites will be shut down by the industry forcing people to only buy paper copies. That means I will never read anymore manga for awhile since I can't afford to be paying over $10 for a 30 minute book. I am sure nobody will do anymore scanlations and all sites will be gone by the summer due to the greed of the industry. Goodbye reading any manga anymore I guess.
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erilot
Posts: 25 Location: INDIANA |
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From what I am reading around, seems like all online sites will be shut down by the industry forcing people to only buy paper copies. That means I will never read anymore manga for awhile since I can't afford to be paying over $10 for a 30 minute book. I am sure nobody will do anymore scanlations and all sites will be gone by the summer due to the greed of the industry. Goodbye reading any manga anymore I guess.
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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http://www.emanga.com Digital Manga's Emanga http://yenpress.us/2010/04/the-future-of-yen-plus/ Yen Plus digital http://sigikki.com/ http://www.shonensunday.com/top.shtml http://www.shonensunday.com/series/rinne/index.shtml http://netcomics.com/ http://tokyopop.com/manga/read_tokyopop_titles/browse?sort=views http://www.vertical-inc.com/twinspica/index.html http://www.onlinecomics.net http://www.gomanga.com/ [w/web manga] http://www.publiclibraries.com/ |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14886 |
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Greed is good. It's what makes capitalism work. Without greed, mangaka would not have much motivation to keep publishing their works. They would just stop drawing since they would not want more money. Greed is good for the consumers too. Without greed, they would not want to read as much manga as possible. Without greed, they would want to pay as high prices as possible. Without greed, there would be no scanlations. See, greed is good. 
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