Forum - View topicHow hard is it for anime over in Japan, WSJ lets us know.
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animefan1238
 Posts: 301 Location: Ma |
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http://online.wsj.com/video/tough-times-for-anime-animators/B0731C1D-8B17-45A7-B1DE-8E25C1F71EA1.html
For all fans its hard to see the thing we love struggle so much, and the people who bring them to us, deal with the economy. |
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Lyzl
 Posts: 24 |
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I think they glazed over some of the other issues in the industry in that video (understandably though, because it's so short).
With an ever increasing demand for better quality, more and more animators must be put on each project. (not hard fact, but it seems logical). I know from studying the video game industry, in the 70s and 80s, video games were easily made by small teams of less than 50 people. Now, teams of 300 over years of work are common for any major video game. I feel that this drive to produce ever increasing quality dilutes creativity, as it's hard to get any one person on the reins of a project. Remakes, squeals and series based on popular manga become ever more common, as they are sure to sell. Combine this now with the tough economy, and things are even more dire. Everyone needs to be more sure their product will sell, because sales are down in general. However, no fan wants a sacrifice in quality. It is an unfortunate circumstance, and all the major media types are suffering from it. (Of course, then there's pirating, but that's a whole other matter). |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7994 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Maybe they should lower the prices of their DVDs and put more episodes on them then more people will buy them and then they can afford to pay the staff more money and the staff wouldn't have to bail on them.
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JrdBnta
 Posts: 9 Location: Lost in mental space. |
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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Easier said than done Kruszer..
One is that anime sales in Japan are fairly inelastic to price fluctuations, essentially a core market that will buy it whatever the cost is to get it essentially. In one case saying "We haven't seen a change in buying patterns." in terms to both raising and lowering of price. Than f course this is pricing your good to low that it doesn't make up it's value, and more and more are thinking it should be worth $0.00 so I don't blame staff who think they should be doing something else as they are probably right as we have been aptly showing them and Lyzl touches on some other points of trouble (in terms of originality and creativity) as that is kinda where we are now as one video game designer put it hgh quality doesn't necessarily translate to better sales. We can see this not only in video games but anime, movies, and other entertainment mediums as well. |
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animefan1238
Posts: 301 Location: Ma |
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It's a chain of companies that get money from sales; The studio who made it The company who dubed it The store who sells it etc. It would be nice of lower prices but it would hurt these factors. |
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batou37
 Posts: 455 |
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Is the ease of distribution over the internet not a possible answer to this problem of middlemen? If the industry declines but A) there are still professional artists whose talent is animation and therefore for income must look for some outlet for this and B.) the demand of fans is there, the natural result would seem to me to be the startup of companies that produce the anime, sell it digitally only (bypassing the production costs of dvds and packaging), having it translated for foreign fans by bilingual speakers (as we all know there are numerous groups out there that already do this) and distributed internationally. A completely "factory direct" approach. So in this situation we only have creator -> consumer, instead of creator-> hard media producer -> warehouser-> distributor-> dubber-> retailer-> consumer. Much less costly providing more capital for investment in quality, better wages, and still lower prices for the consumer.
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LordRedhand
Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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As much as we anime fans would like to think it, anime isn't some big force or something that is as popular as we think it is. To be frank it quite small. Add in that international laws need to be applied to the process and there is a need for a distributor to get everything going.
Arguably there is nothing stopping an artist what you propose there batou37, but money would still have to come from somewhere to make it happen (production committees) as anime studios are too small on their own, as well as factoring groups that are dedicated to taking you down despite of what your doing. Add in that the studios don't usually make money from other merchandising efforts (like toys, shirts, so on.) makes it such that only the show itself can make them money. And normally factory direct doesn't lead to bigger profit margins unless it's something you absolutely need to have, anime is not one of those and costs normally go up in such instances. (Like buying a certain set of high-quality steel I sell, The are cheaper just by avoiding retail markup but still doesn't take the sting out of a $2800 set. I don't think you would like higher costs but I wouldn't mind them as I find the medium worth funding.) And on the topic of anime toys it's more of a style now, one could not really have an anime series per say, but conceivably could do it without anime at all. edit: Also add that one company trying to break away from the old model and go to a new one has failed/is failing doesn't convince another company to follow. |
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zgripţuroicǎ
 Posts: 140 Location: Newburgh, NY |
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Also, I was just reading the other day about the convoluted channels things have to go through in Japan. I can't be bothered to look up the link at the moment, but the gist of it was that when making a consumer product in Japan, parts and materials get bounced through an insanely long series of distributors/wholesalers connected to it, and all of them raise the price of something before they pass it on to the next. It's not entirely infeasible to see a product get kicked around between 6-8 or more such companies, each raising the price the consumer makes. This brings up the cost in Japan of an object, and then for DVDs and Blu-Rays, they try and keep the cost similar here to discourage fans from importing it back to Japan, as media here typically sells for much less, but will play on Japanese DVD/Blu-Ray players.
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Dune
Posts: 223 |
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How much does today's pay for anime artists differ from previous years? Specifically when compared to Rie Otani's current salary?
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ShinobiX
 Posts: 889 Location: NY |
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lol everyone knows you don't do anime if you wanna make money. It's like the videogame industry. You're either at the top or at the bottom. There is no middle. 90% drop out rate, damn I knew japanese animators had it hard but that is horrible. Something is definitely wrong. Wonder why that lady is working there. Well you heard her. She'd rather be poor and happy than rich and miserable unlike most Americans lol. She follows her passion. Got to respect that.
Regarding DVDs, if they lower their prices they'll sell more. Decrease price and the demand for DVDs will increase. Simple macroeconomics. Everyone knows a new DVD with 4 episodes is NOT WORTH $30. That is what I call a thief and those bastards know it too lol and they wonder why their stuff is always pirated. Not even American DVDs cost that much. Ripoff. Their high prices means they can't compete with other companies so what do they expect. Oh btw, nice topic. Even though It's not a popular one it's nice to see a topic about anime and real life. Not bashing anyone now but topics like these actually give discussions "real meaning". |
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hissatsu01
 Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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One gets the impression you didn't read a single comment before posting. 1. It's not macroeconomics. 2. $30 would be an insane bargain in Japan. More like $60 - 90 per DVD/Blu-ray at list prices. 3. As others have already noted, Japan's convoluted retail system means that many middlemen get a cut of the profits. Additionally, unlike in US broadcasting, anime in Japan makes no money at all from TV broadcasts. Instead sponsors pay for the broadcast/production, which means those sponsors now get a cut of any sales as well. All these things mean higher prices. They would sell somewhat more if they lowered prices, but not all that much. Anime is a niche market, even in Japan. Meanwhile all the other fixed costs involved in the production would stay the same. They could cut the prices 60-70% as you'd like, and they would sell more, but they'd lose far more money than any increased sales would bring in. So while you may think of them as thieves, bastards, and rip-off artists, any solution would be a little more complicated than your "Durr, just lower the prices!" |
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ShinobiX
Posts: 889 Location: NY |
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Clearly your attacking me but I'm too lasy to respond seroiusly anyway:
If it's not macro what is it? BTW you sort of described it genius. I said simple macro as in basics meaning no I didn't explain the situation thoroughly. If it's not macro then it's micro (according to you). The law of supply and demand which I described here applies to economics in general. Yes If they lower prices they will sell more bringing more profits because of the increase in sales. Furthermore Japan makes most of their money from exports which is why normally they sell their goods to us dirt cheap (it's an illusion don't feel like going into detail). Also I'm talking about the anime market in America. I could care less about Japan's. Obviously I know nothing about their's which is why I didn't talk much about them. Never said the solution was simple. I don't know their economy very well. Anyhow $60 to $90 per DVD lol now I know your making up stuff. How old are you? If you or anyone is buying anime at those prices then wow lol. Also if the 60 to 90 ur referring to is in japanese currency you should know the japanese dollar is weaker than the American dollar. If you don't know what an exchange rate is then stop talking to me. Oh yeah I didn't read. The purpose of this thread was to inform us and watch the video. Did you? Then after watching the video you state your opinion. I'm not obligated to respond to other people's opinions. Lastly, economics is all theory. We guess what the outcome of the market is. Meaning an economists decision is based on bs. Therefore you don't know if the anime market in Japan will increase its profits by lowering prices. Maybe they will maybe they wont. It's called the What If Analysis. Looking at their history it looks like they are afraid to take risks. Kind of like you based on your response. Anyway we are in a recession so stuff like this is bound to happen. No-brainer. |
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hissatsu01
Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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It would be microeconomics, or supply and demand. If you use microeconomics/macroeconomics interchangeably, you probably shouldn't be using the terms at all.
If the increase in sales that results from lowered prices doesn't make up for the drop in the profit margin, you will not make more profit. Increased sales is not a guarantee of increased profits. And you're talking about the US anime market in a thread commenting on a story about the Japanese market - and you could care less about the Japanese market? That all makes so much sense.
Let's see... Bakemonogatari Vol 1 Blu-ray list price: ￥7,350 = $82.55 Bakemonogatari Vol 2 Blu-ray list price: ￥8,400 = $94.33 Spice and Wolf 2 Vol 1 Blu-ray list price: ¥9,999 = $112.29 Spice and Wolf 2 Vol 2 Blu-ray list price: ¥7,980 = $89.62 Ponyo Blu-ray list price: ¥7,140 = $80.21 DVD releases are usually about ¥1,000 cheaper than Blu-rays. Discounts off retail were unheard of in the past in Japan, but now you can get up 25% off, though many places still sell at list price. FYI, Bakemonogatari Vol 1. has sold over 70,000 copies, so someone is indeed buying it. But I did misunderstand, since I thought you were talking about Japanese prices. Your (even whinier) complaint is that US anime DVDs are too expensive. The reason anime DVDs are more expensive than general market DVDs in the US is because licensing and dubbing costs have to be recouped, along with a smaller audience that purchases anime. If anime licensors could afford to sell their DVDs for less, they most certainly would. But of course, feel free to alternately believe that anime licensors are run by vastly wealthy fatcats who take advantage of poor defenseless anime fans or idiots who are too stupid to know they'd sell more if they dropped prices.
Thanks you for that nugget of information. I will certainly treasure it. Though given that one of the Japanese economy's main problems at the moment is a strong yen, your understanding of the situation is a bit suspect.
That you didn't read was apparent, since others have already covered why your argument is simplistic at best, competely wrong at worst. And apparently you don't hear very well either, since some of the problems with Japan's anime market were covered in the video, but you managed to gloss over them entirely.
If that is what you call an analysis, you're delusional. |
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ShinobiX
Posts: 889 Location: NY |
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Ok a flamer. A stupid one too. Ok lets begin. Amuse me:
I said if it’s not macro then its micro. Then I said I’m just talking about the law of supply and demand only. The B-A-S-I-C-S as in lower price higher demand increase in sales. So in your opening statement, what are you complaining about? Moving on to your next comment. Tell me what basics means lol. Ok I know what profit margin is but the reason I did not talk about it is because profit margin is not pre- school stuff. Hello profit margin deals with determining the price of a good, marketing, list prices(which you don’t what that means) blah blah blah. I just said they should lower prices. I’m keeping it basic here dude why would I talk about all that. The reason why I did not talk about it is because well when I say stuff I like to make sure it’s factual and not fiction (problem with economists). Wouldn’t you agree? Obviously not since all you did was create your own scenario aka fiction to support your cause. Hmm. Great argument. Where are the facts? Why you are bsing and how I know: Companies in general do not post their manufacturing, transporting, processing in general costs online for the whole world to see. Meaning neither you nor anyone outside of the anime industry can tell me profit margin is the reason why prices are high. You don’t know the total sum of money needed to produce/ transport /sell anime. Plus the video talked about the anime industry in general and used that one firm as an example of what’s happening on a wide scale. Thus the video was talking about the entire anime industry in Japan. Do you know all their private corporate info? I don’t. Maybe you are a hacker. Although, if you’re made up story example whatever is true that would happen. Now the second part hurray. There was a misunderstanding. Was I talking about U.S. DVDs Japanese DVDs I don’t know anymore nor do I really care. Heck after reading your bs I got confused myself lol. A misunderstanding occurred. Get over it. Cry me a river. No wait you did lol. Stuff I did not mention you felt the need to criticize/was already answered/attack: Profit margin Macro Micro Currency Japan’s economy. My god how many times did I tell you prior to this post I know jack about it. Give it a rest lol Also I said yen is weaker than the dollar. That’s it. That’s a fact dude move on. Um genius I did not read because I’m not obliged to plus what’s the primary purpose of this thread again? I think I told you but you conveniently ignored that part lol. Anyway also I stated numerous times I know little to nothing about Japan’s economy. Stop complaining about why I know so little about Japan’s economy. Moron Haven’t I told you enough times already? Now referring to US DVDs and JPN DVDs. I only said decrease price increase sales. That’s a fact. Don’t know what else to say. Then I said profits will increase. Um that is also true moron. Even in your scenario. I’ll explain it to you simply: Selling some at lower price is better than selling none at all lol. Now c’mon dude even a kindergartener could get that. I’m assuming you misunderstood when I said profits increase. I meant right now they are selling none (meaning they have a bunch in stock) so they might as well get something in return by decreasing the price. We know this as a sale. Simpler example: -10 > -100 (please tell me you get that) Lastly, you said my last statement is wrong. Therefore economist can see the future. Hmm I’m delusional. Yes. Dude what I said is that economist can only predict the future of the economy. They just make highly educated guesses that most people find credible (no don’t make me explain the psychology behind this). Meaning sometimes they are wrong. Last time I checked gut feeling and guessing is bs. Examples of when they are wrong: Whenever the stock market crashed. |
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